Transcript [00:00] Welcome to this episode of Shoulder to [00:01] Shoulder, a podcast where a pastor and a [00:03] rabbi get to the heart of issues that [00:05] matter to people of faith. I'm Pastor [00:06] Doug Reed here with my friend Rabbi [00:08] Pesach Wolicki. And on this episode, [00:10] we're going to be having a conversation [00:12] where both of us are in hotel rooms in [00:14] Washington, D.C. There's lots to catch [00:16] up on because of this incredible event [00:18] that we're going to be a part of [00:19] advocating for Israel on Capitol Hill. [00:21] There's also several things going on in [00:23] the news. So, stay tuned throughout the [00:25] whole episode. You don't want to miss [00:27] anything. Before we jump into our [00:29] conversation, please like our Facebook [00:31] page and join our Facebook group, the [00:33] Shoulder to Shoulder community, where [00:34] you can interact with Pesach and me all [00:36] week long. The best way to support this [00:38] podcast is to go on over to Patreon, [00:40] subscribe to Shoulder to Shoulder. For [00:42] just $10 a month, you're helping us [00:44] bring this message of Shoulder to [00:46] Shoulder to more and more people all [00:47] around the world. As a thank you for [00:49] your $10 subscription, you'll get [00:51] exclusive access to chapter by chapter [00:53] Bible study beginning in Genesis chapter [00:55] 1 from Rabbi Pesach and myself. So, go [00:58] on over to Patreon, subscribe to [00:59] Shoulder to Shoulder for just $10 a [01:01] month. We're grateful for our sponsor [01:03] Israel 365 News, which is the place for [01:06] you to go and get your news and [01:07] information before going to anyone else. [01:09] Go on over to Israel365news.com [01:13] to check out some of their articles and [01:15] be sure to read Rabbi Pesach and my [01:17] columns. Each and every week, Pesach, [01:19] Israel 365 has an incredible lineup of [01:23] products and initiatives that they are [01:24] supporting. What are we supporting [01:26] today? [01:28] Well, today I want to talk about the [01:29] Israel 365 store. You know, lately we've [01:32] been asking you to sign up for [01:33] newsletters and support charities and [01:35] things, but let's not forget that what [01:37] Israel 365 is really about is connecting [01:39] Jews and Christians about all that we [01:41] share. A lot of that has to do with [01:43] Israel and support for Israel, but [01:45] mainly what connects us is the Bible. [01:47] And on Israel365store.com, [01:50] if you just type that in, [01:51] Israel365store.com, [01:53] you'll find amazing books that really [01:56] speak to [01:57] you know, the way biblical values, [02:00] biblical teachings that have been [02:02] that have been anchoring the Jewish [02:04] people for thousands of years can also [02:07] enrich your life even if you're not [02:09] Jewish. So, such as the Shabbat [02:11] Revolution, a practical guide to weekly [02:13] renewal, how you can use some of the [02:15] lessons of Shabbat and some of the [02:16] beauty of Shabbat, bring it into your [02:18] home, or Universal Zionism, the new book [02:21] by Rabbi Tully Weiss, really about how [02:23] how the concept of the Jewish state and [02:26] the Jewish homeland isn't really just [02:28] about the Jewish people being in their [02:29] homeland, it's about impacting the [02:30] entire world and it really is a [02:32] beautiful book speaking about that [02:34] concept and so many important books [02:37] there. You can also find my books, [02:38] Verses for Zion and Cup of Salvation, [02:40] and The Weekly Word, you can find them [02:42] there as well. So, a lot of really uh [02:45] really great and enriching books at [02:47] Israel 365 store as well as products [02:50] from the land of Israel including uh [02:52] honey and olive oil from the land and uh [02:55] and beautiful [02:56] artwork from the land of Israel. So, [02:58] head on over to Israel365store.com [03:01] and uh [03:03] and you know, you can pick something up [03:04] for Mother's Day. [03:05] Yes, be sure to check that out. So [03:07] important to continue to support the [03:10] work there Israel 365. What they are [03:12] doing is incredibly valuable and [03:14] important in this time, uh especially in [03:17] light of why you and I are here in [03:19] Washington, D.C. We are here for Israel [03:22] Advocacy Day. Uh it's a three-day event. [03:25] Tonight will be the the gala. We're [03:27] recording this on uh Monday morning. Uh [03:30] tomorrow we will head to Capitol Hill [03:32] with almost 500, I think it's 496 is the [03:35] last count I heard, pastors, rabbi, [03:38] clergy uh headed to Capitol Hill to [03:41] advocate for Israel at a time where [03:44] that's becoming more and more unpopular. [03:46] Uh it's unpopular in the media, it's [03:48] unpopular in politics, it's unpopular [03:50] online. And here are a group of people [03:53] that believe vastly different things [03:55] about Jesus, uh but come together around [03:59] uh God's involvement and promises to the [04:02] Jewish people, to the land of Israel, [04:05] and stand in lockstep not with a [04:07] political party, but with the God of the [04:09] Bible and what the prophets say, and we [04:11] believe those things will come to pass. [04:13] And so, we are going to have the [04:15] privilege of having meetings with [04:16] Democrats, Republicans, Independents, uh [04:19] their staffs, teams, and we are going to [04:21] be on Capitol Hill. And then on [04:24] Wednesday, there is a symposium, I guess [04:27] I'll call it. I'm I'm sure it's got a [04:28] better title than that. But we're going [04:30] to hear from our very own Rabbi Pesach. [04:33] We're going to hear from Dr. Gerald [04:34] McDermott. We're going to hear from a [04:36] number of other incredible academics and [04:38] guests on the topic of Israel. And so, [04:42] just a privilege to be here with Eagles' [04:44] Wings and a number of other partnering [04:46] organizations. And Pesach and I get a [04:48] couple of days in D.C. together. So, [04:49] it's it's going to be a lot of fun. I [04:51] have my son with me. He gets to [04:52] experience all this firsthand. Uh he's [04:55] currently at the venue where we'll be [04:57] tonight for the gala setting up. But [04:59] Pesach, you're here, I'm here, we're [05:01] doing something historic especially in [05:03] light of the current news and media [05:05] cycle. Uh how are you feeling about the [05:07] event? What does this mean to you as a [05:10] Jew, as a as a rabbi, as somebody who's [05:12] been in this [05:13] kind of space for a long time advocating [05:15] for Israel? [05:17] Well, I think it's huge on a number of [05:19] fronts. Let me start with the Jewish [05:20] angle, which is that among the [05:22] sponsoring organizations of this event, [05:25] which is being led by Christians, it's [05:27] being led by Eagles' Wings, the Israel [05:29] Christian Nexus, which is really the [05:31] advocacy arm of Eagles' Wings uh in a [05:34] sense, it's kind of a related [05:35] organization. Uh and and then you have [05:38] the the ACLI, the American Christian [05:40] Leaders for Israel, [05:42] uh led by Susan Michael and the [05:43] International Christian Embassy of [05:45] Jerusalem, the National Religious [05:46] Broadcasters Association. So, some [05:48] really major Christian organizations [05:50] have gotten behind this initiative of [05:52] bringing hundreds of pastors and and [05:54] rabbis together, but it's also being [05:57] sponsored by the Rabbinical Council of [05:59] America, the Orthodox Rabbinical [06:00] organization, uh the leading Orthodox [06:04] Rabbinical organization in America. It's [06:06] also being sponsored by the Orthodox [06:07] Union. These are mainstream Orthodox [06:11] Jewish leadership organizations, the [06:13] mainstream leadership organizations, [06:15] that in the past never did much [06:16] collaboration with Christians. So, as [06:19] you know, from where I sit, as someone [06:21] who's really been at the vanguard uh of [06:23] pushing you know, for for [06:25] more relationship between the Jewish [06:27] community and the Christian community at [06:29] the leadership level especially, uh it's [06:31] it's amazing to me that these mainstream [06:34] organizations that were so stand-offish [06:36] for years about the about the [06:38] Jewish-Christian relationship are now [06:40] embracing it and and locking arms and [06:42] joining together in this advocacy. I [06:44] should also mention that Israel 365 [06:45] Action is also one of the sponsors of [06:48] the of the event. [06:51] And I I just think it's hugely [06:52] significant. I want to put a you know, [06:53] put more of a pin on this that the [06:55] Orthodox Jewish world has woken up to [06:57] this. Uh it's uh it's very important uh [07:01] for the [07:02] >> How much do you feel, Pesach, is it a [07:03] shift in perspective? Is it a shift in [07:06] belief? Or is it just a demand of the [07:09] times? The fact that anti-Semitism is [07:11] rising the way that it is, the fact that [07:13] the anti-Israel advocacy, anti-Zionism [07:17] uh advocacy is growing. Uh do you feel [07:20] that that just the the demand of the [07:22] times is putting it on the Jewish people [07:25] to say, "Hey, we we don't we don't have [07:26] a choice anymore. We we need all the [07:28] friends we can get." Or has there been [07:30] thinking shifts? Has there been [07:31] theological shifts? Has there been uh an [07:34] openness to the partnership aside from [07:36] the demand of the time? Well, I'm sure [07:39] it's coming from their perspective from [07:40] a demand of the time. [07:42] But that's often the way it begins. [07:44] Uh I've seen many, many people on the [07:47] Jewish side of the Jewish-Christian [07:48] relationship who only got into the [07:51] relationship out of a sense of practical [07:52] necessity, out of a sense of [07:55] maybe they're maybe they're fundraising [07:57] for something and they believe that the [07:59] Christians will give to whatever cause, [08:01] or they just feel that the partnership [08:03] will help Israel in a practical sense. [08:05] But once they get into the relationship, [08:07] once they start recognizing the [08:08] sincerity uh of the Christians uh who [08:11] are involved, once they get over their [08:14] Jewish misperceptions about modern [08:16] Christians, cuz for the vast majority of [08:17] Jews, they know nothing about [08:19] Christians. All they know is that [08:21] Christians all want to convert us. [08:23] And theologically, they don't know the [08:24] difference between Doug Reed and a [08:26] medieval Catholic. They Most Jews have [08:28] no clue. [08:29] So, the fact that they're getting [08:30] involved, I think is is significant. [08:32] It's also significant in that [08:36] the [08:38] mainstream Jewish establishment outside [08:40] the Orthodox community, [08:42] organizations such as the Jewish [08:44] Federation, they're endorsing this as [08:46] well. [08:47] But they're also, you know, tiptoeing [08:49] into it. They're looking at this. It's [08:51] significant that the Jewish community is [08:53] just [08:54] open to this being a legitimate [08:56] relationship. The Rabbinical Council of [08:58] America, literally the mainstream [09:01] Orthodox, modern Orthodox Jewish [09:03] Rabbinical organization that has never [09:05] been favorable to the Jewish-Christian [09:06] relationship. I've experienced this [09:08] myself with so many RCA rabbis [09:10] who are uncomfortable [09:13] with this work or have been. The fact [09:15] that they're involved here and that [09:16] they're bringing a delegation of rabbis [09:18] to this event who are going to [09:21] start being exposed to real Christian [09:25] lovers of Israel, Christian supporters [09:26] of Israel who don't have a conversionary [09:28] agenda. [09:29] It's going to be a game-changer. I think [09:31] it's going to be big. Uh I'm excited to [09:33] be a part of it. And I So, I that's one [09:35] dimension where I think that this that [09:37] this event in D.C. this week is very [09:38] significant. Another [09:41] another important dimension of it [09:43] has to do with what Christian advocacy [09:46] for Israel has looked like for the last [09:48] decade and a half, two decades. [09:50] And that is it's been dominated in the [09:52] public eye [09:54] by the organization Christians United [09:56] for Israel, led by John Hagee. [09:59] And most of our listeners have probably [10:01] heard of that organization. In the [10:02] Jewish community, who again don't know [10:04] much about the Christian world, the [10:06] Jewish community hears about, you know, [10:07] this Pastor John Hagee, he's this big [10:09] pastor of a megachurch, he's got this [10:11] big organization that apparently has [10:12] millions of members. [10:14] And they feel like, "Wow, and it's [10:15] called Christians United for Israel." [10:17] And they feel like, "Wow, that's the [10:19] whole Christian world." Because Jews, [10:21] got to remember, there's only a couple [10:22] million Jews in America anyway. So, when [10:24] we hear numbers [10:26] of [10:27] uh of a couple million Christians who [10:28] are involved or thousands of pastors who [10:30] are involved, we think it's the whole [10:31] Christian world. And most Jews don't [10:32] realize that Christian Zionism as an [10:35] organized movement is a is still a very [10:38] small percentage of the Christian [10:39] community. [10:40] And that Pastor Hagee's organization, [10:43] Christians United for Israel, as for all [10:44] the good work that they've done, and [10:46] I've spoken for them many times, I've [10:47] spoken at their leadership conferences. [10:49] I know Pastor Hagee. It's a great [10:51] organization in terms of what they've [10:52] accomplished in the past, but it's a [10:55] very limited organization. [10:56] Demographically, it's very limited. [10:58] There's a lot of major Christian [11:00] organizations that are not a part of it [11:03] at all, partly because, and this is a [11:05] criticism of CUFI, you know, different [11:07] big organizations have different [11:08] attitudes about partnerships. [11:10] And there are large organizations who as [11:12] a policy don't do partnerships. They [11:13] just do their own programming. They [11:15] don't do co-sponsorships and coalition [11:17] building. And CUFI is one of those [11:19] organizations. [11:21] And that's also led to the fact that [11:22] it's kind of the John Hagee show, or the [11:24] Hagee family show. Think about this, [11:26] John Hagee is the founder of CUFI. The [11:29] executive director of CUFI is [11:31] was Diana Hagee, his wife, and now it's [11:33] Sandra Parker, who is Sandra Hagee [11:36] Parker, that's the Hagee's daughter. [11:37] It's basically the Hagee show. So, [11:40] again, if you're a follower of John [11:42] Hagee, if you're part of that [11:44] uh slice of the Christian world, [11:46] wonderful, but there's so many [11:48] Christians, and I know a lot of [11:49] Christian leaders who got involved in [11:51] CUFI, they realized that it was kind of [11:53] just the John Hagee show, and he's a [11:54] particular brand of Pentecostalism that [11:56] is not everyone's cup of tea. [11:59] And demographically, it's an older [12:00] organization. So, I don't want to bash [12:03] CUFI, but they're a their impact has [12:07] actually been far more limited than [12:09] people in the Jewish community who hear [12:11] about them and hear about their [12:12] conferences realize. [12:14] So, once you're inside the Christian [12:16] world, you realize that there's really a [12:18] need for a much broader coalition, a [12:20] much [12:21] a much more [12:22] a much broader tent [12:25] for the Christian Zionist movement to be [12:26] organized around advocacy for Israel. [12:28] So, when you have something like this, [12:29] where the International Christian [12:30] Embassy, together with I I I should add [12:32] in Bridges for Peace as a part of it, [12:34] they're a they're a they're a worldwide [12:36] organization, Eagles' Wings, the [12:38] National Religious Broadcasters, I mean, [12:40] that you don't get more mainstream in [12:42] the evangelical world than that. That is [12:44] pretty much the umbrella organization of [12:47] of so much of evangelical Christianity. [12:50] The fact that they're all cooperating on [12:52] this [12:53] this advocacy day, this is the second [12:55] year in a row that they're doing it, [12:56] it's and it's only growing. [12:58] This to me is filling a very important [13:01] void. [13:02] And is the appropriate pushback at a [13:05] time where, as you mentioned in your [13:08] remarks, [13:09] that Christian Zionism's under attack. [13:12] There's a lot of pushback against it. [13:13] The climate is really [13:16] you know, among younger people, we know [13:17] what's going on. So, the fact that this [13:19] is happening and that it's growing and [13:21] that it involves Jews and Christian [13:23] Jewish and Christian organizations [13:24] together collaborating on this, [13:27] I think signals a big big change. [13:30] And it could grow into something much [13:33] more powerful than than we even realize [13:35] into the future. That's my hope. And I'm [13:37] just honored to be a part of it. And as [13:39] you said, I'm going to be speaking on [13:40] Wednesday. There's going to be a number [13:41] of Christian theologians. I'm the token [13:43] Jew on the on the group. I think there's [13:44] four speakers that day as I saw it on [13:47] the schedule, unless they added [13:48] somebody. And the topic they gave me [13:50] was, "Is Zionism bad for [13:53] Jewish-Christian relations? Has it been [13:54] damaging?" It's a very interesting [13:56] question. And you you're going to see [13:58] how I'm going to address it. Cuz you [14:00] know, just to give you the one-liner, [14:01] what I'm basically going to say is [14:04] Zionism hasn't been bad for [14:05] Jewish-Christian relations, it's been [14:07] bad for Christian-Christian relations, [14:09] because it's actually exposed a fault [14:11] line in the Christian world that is [14:12] causing a lot of internal division among [14:14] Christians, which is actually very [14:15] healthy. [14:17] But there's it it's definitely Zionism, [14:21] or shall we say the success of the [14:22] Zionist project, the success of the [14:24] state of Israel, [14:26] has exposed certain things within within [14:29] the Christian world that has caused [14:32] a crisis, [14:33] a real crisis in Christianity. [14:35] And it's a time for choosing. So, I'm [14:38] going to address that in my talk. I've [14:40] already given Now I've given you a [14:41] preview of it, Doug. [14:43] But it's going to it should be a [14:44] >> listeners got a little preview. [14:46] >> There you go, Shoulder to Shoulder [14:47] listeners, you see it. And hopefully [14:48] we'll have it recorded, maybe we'll post [14:50] it [14:51] to either the Israel 365 YouTube channel [14:53] or my YouTube channel. We'll post the [14:55] talk when it comes out, and maybe some [14:56] of the other talks, because the other [14:58] speakers there, A.J. Nolte, is a [14:59] professor from Regent University, Andre [15:01] Villeneuve, who's a a Catholic [15:03] theologian, a Catholic Christian Zionist [15:05] theologian, Jerry McDermott, of course, [15:07] he's been on Shoulder to Shoulder, he's [15:09] going to be speaking there. [15:10] It's going to be a very exciting couple [15:11] of days. [15:13] I'm I'm pumped for it. And like I said, [15:14] I think there's something very [15:16] significant in the air [15:18] because of the unique coalition of [15:20] organizations that are sponsoring this. [15:23] Well, I think for Christian Zionism, [15:25] it's still figuring out what it is. [15:27] You know, it's so [15:28] it's such a new modern Christian [15:30] Zionism, this this idea [15:34] has entered into the mainstream of [15:36] Christian thought, and it is it's [15:37] creating a fault line to your point. [15:39] It's making people [15:41] deal with scripture, deal with God's [15:44] character, deal with deep questions of [15:48] what they believe. And I think one of [15:49] your first points you ever made to me [15:51] was, "Look, before 1948, [15:54] you you you can understand a position [15:57] perhaps of replacement theology, but [15:59] after, how are you not confronted by the [16:02] fact that God is in gathering his [16:03] people? Like you have to have this [16:04] conversation." And it feels like it's [16:06] been building over Israel's history, and [16:09] it's really coming to a head with all [16:11] that's going on in the world. It's on [16:14] the lips of every political pundit in [16:16] America. It's on the mind of the [16:19] president and prime ministers across the [16:21] world. And it's on the lips of pastors, [16:24] and they're having to deal with it, cuz [16:25] congregation members, it's at the [16:27] forefront, not just of the news cycle, [16:30] but it's making us deal with questions [16:33] of is God going to do what God said? Is [16:36] he going to fulfill his word? Is he a [16:37] God who maintains his character [16:41] even in the midst of some political [16:43] conversations that might make you [16:45] uncomfortable or some things that you [16:46] don't understand. And I I think it's [16:48] really important for the church at this [16:50] hour. A lot of pastors want to shy away, [16:53] they want to stay away. A lot of church [16:55] members, "Well, just don't talk about [16:57] it. It's not a main thing. It's kind of, [16:58] you know, let's focus on Jesus. Let's [17:00] focus." I and I and I've heard those [17:02] things, and I I get what people are [17:04] saying that are making that point. But [17:06] we have to take the whole counsel of [17:08] God's word. And yes, I believe I'm I'm a [17:11] Jesus guy, I'm a pastor. I love the New [17:13] Testament. But we don't have the New [17:15] Testament without the Hebrew scriptures. [17:18] We don't have any that we have without [17:20] the prophets and without everything that [17:22] we read and hold dear. And so, [17:25] Christians that just want to dismiss it [17:26] because it makes them uncomfortable or [17:28] it's you know, it's conflict and you [17:30] know, and we'll just focus on the New [17:31] Testament, you you are missing the [17:33] narrative. You are missing God's heart [17:35] for this. And I think the hour is now, [17:37] and it's so important what's happening. [17:40] The coalitions that are forming, to your [17:41] point, are unheard of in history. And I [17:45] and I think God is orchestrating some [17:47] things behind the scenes. And what God [17:49] wants to do, no man can stop. And I want [17:51] to be on God's side, to quote Abraham [17:53] Lincoln. Uh you know, whether or not [17:55] God's on my side doesn't matter, but I [17:56] want to be on his. [17:58] So, I I think that's important in this [17:59] hour. Doug, you know, on the subject of [18:01] your moving to Israel, I just have to [18:02] tell you that I was in a synagogue in [18:04] Ashkelon recently. We were there for [18:06] Shabbat. And a man walked up to me in [18:08] the synagogue [18:10] who I'd met once before. [18:13] And he says to me, [18:15] "I'm so excited that Doug and his family [18:17] are moving to Israel." And I was like, [18:19] "What? This guy's walking up to me in [18:20] the synagogue?" He listens to the [18:22] podcast, and he was super excited that [18:24] you and your family were moving. It was [18:25] really cool to meet someone who's a [18:27] regular listener to Shoulder to [18:28] Shoulder. I'm sure he's listening now. [18:31] And you you know, so what you're doing, [18:33] it inspires people, it has impact. And [18:35] you're about to hit the road and talk [18:36] about it. [18:38] And you don't know what kind of pushback [18:39] you're going to get, what kind of [18:40] experiences you're going to have. Where [18:42] do things stand with the Reed family [18:44] move to Israel, with the with the [18:46] nationwide tour that you're about to [18:49] launch? Where are things right now? [18:52] Yeah, so I I've had similar experiences. [18:54] I actually was at an event uh last week [18:58] at the Jewish [18:59] community center in Buffalo. They had [19:02] two IDF soldiers that were sharing their [19:04] October 7th story, and they invited a [19:06] number of clergy and [19:08] from all all different backgrounds. They [19:10] had a a gentleman actually from the [19:11] Baha'i faith. I'd never met anybody of [19:14] the Baha'i faith, and he actually had [19:15] lived in Haifa for a little bit. We had [19:17] a wonderful conversation. [19:19] But had this walked into the room and [19:21] saw several rabbis who I'm friends with, [19:23] several in the Jewish community that I'm [19:24] friends with, and they all came over and [19:26] said, "We saw your announcement. Oh my [19:29] goodness, we're so excited for you, [19:31] and we're overwhelmingly positive. And [19:35] how are the kids with it? How's How's [19:36] your wife with it?" And so, the the two [19:39] or three questions that we have gotten [19:41] on repeat [19:43] have just basically been, "Well, where [19:44] are you going to live? What exactly are [19:46] you going to be doing? And when do you [19:48] go?" You know, those have been kind of [19:49] the three questions on repeat. And you [19:52] know, we've told everybody, you know, [19:54] we're going with our denomination. We're [19:55] certainly going to be working with [19:57] projects that they have going on and [19:59] Christians and various organizations [20:01] that we're connected to. We're going to [20:03] continue shoulder to shoulder and [20:05] continue to work with Eagles' Wings and [20:07] a number of other organizations that [20:10] we've grown to love and have met through [20:11] Bishop Sterns. I'm I'm so honored and [20:13] excited for that. [20:15] Don't know totally where we're going to [20:16] land. Right now, it looks like we may [20:18] land in Haifa initially, but I would [20:20] imagine that we're going to end up [20:22] closer to Jerusalem and Tel Aviv at some [20:24] point. But it's it's been incredible the [20:28] feedback that we've gotten. It's been [20:29] overwhelming from friends and family. [20:32] The support we really haven't started [20:34] fundraising yet and already we've had [20:37] number of folks come alongside in [20:39] monthly partnerships, a number of folks [20:41] come alongside that, you know, out of [20:43] the blue. Just, "Hey, we want to support [20:45] you guys. We think what you're doing is [20:46] incredible. You know, we're going to [20:47] give 50 bucks a month or we're going to [20:49] give 100 bucks a month you guys over the [20:50] next 3 years as you guys figure this [20:52] out." Um [20:55] that side of it's been [20:56] awesome. And then my calendar's filling [20:59] up. We're booked in nine states right [21:01] now. Now, a lot of friends, a lot of [21:02] guys who've been to Israel were [21:04] immediately as soon as they saw it, [21:05] "Hey, we have to get you on the [21:06] calendar. You're going to help my church [21:08] out so much by coming in sharing your [21:10] heart on Israel and everything that [21:12] you're doing." And several [21:14] folks that have not been to Israel that [21:16] have just been friends, now because [21:19] we've taken the step with our [21:21] denomination are like, "We want to have [21:23] you come in that you know, I'm totally [21:25] curious." And so we're having some [21:27] pre-conversations [21:29] and I'll be interested to see if there [21:31] are any parameters given to me as to [21:33] what I can say and can't say and what I [21:35] should touch on. If there's going to be [21:37] any of that, I haven't gotten that yet. [21:39] But for some of the folks that are [21:41] waiting into these waters, they're kind [21:42] of touching their toe in and they trust [21:44] me and they know me, so they're having [21:47] me in, but they're not necessarily in [21:50] the Israel space at all. They're not [21:52] necessarily in some of the arenas that [21:55] I've been in. necessarily have the [21:57] understanding or revelation that I've [21:59] come to on Israel. So, I'm interested to [22:01] see those areas. The guys that are on [22:03] board that have been with Eagles' Wings, [22:05] that that's going to be a ton of fun and [22:07] we're going to have a great time at [22:08] those churches. [22:09] The ones that are having us in and and [22:12] even some that, "Hey, I got your name [22:13] from so-and-so. Here you guys are moving [22:16] to Israel. We want to support. We'd love [22:17] to have you in." Those are going to be [22:19] interesting experiences cuz I don't know [22:21] what those churches have in terms of a [22:23] framework for Israel, [22:25] our heart towards it. And so, some of [22:28] that will unfold as we go. In the early [22:30] stages, a lot of the places that we're [22:31] going are all kind of in lockstep. [22:33] They're some of our closest friends and [22:35] so that was easy to kind of roll out. [22:37] But as we get into [22:40] the fall, it'll be a lot more churches [22:42] that have no context for us. They're, [22:44] you know, taking us based on a reference [22:46] or because so-and-so said I was a good [22:49] guy. And so we're going to go into some [22:51] places and meet some new people and [22:52] share our heart, which I'm I'm excited [22:54] for those. [22:55] It's going to be interesting. It's going [22:56] to be interesting to see the kind of [22:57] pushback you get and and and where that [22:59] all where that all lands. [23:00] [clears throat] [23:01] You know, I I want to tell you I had an [23:02] interesting experience also this [23:04] weekend. I I spent the weekend in [23:05] Philadelphia where I spoke in a local [23:07] synagogue there. [23:08] And of course, as I always do, I speak [23:11] about the Jewish-Christian relationship. [23:12] We also had a Shabbat dinner where a [23:14] number of pastors [23:16] joined us. One of them was a a friend of [23:19] Eagles' Wings who who you [23:21] set us up with who came to the dinner as [23:23] well. And we had a great time and it was [23:26] this other pastor there who was brought [23:27] by a friend of his who was invited by [23:29] someone who who [23:30] by the host, you know, the host of the [23:32] dinner had a Christian friend who he [23:34] invited him and said, "Bring your [23:35] pastor." And this pastor came. So, we [23:36] had no connection to this pastor [23:38] whatsoever. Had a wonderful conversation [23:40] with him. [23:41] And this is what blew me away. He he [23:44] stayed for Shabbat dinner. He was very, [23:46] you know, he seemed to be enjoying [23:47] himself. We were having lively [23:49] conversation. There was a number of [23:50] Jewish couples there. And like I said, [23:52] this this a few Christians who were with [23:54] us. [23:55] The next day, [23:57] I'm sitting Shabbat afternoon in the [23:59] home where I was staying where we had [24:00] the dinner, just reading and I was [24:02] talking to someone else from the Jewish [24:04] community who had come by to, you know, [24:05] to meet with me. [24:07] And this pastor who lives over an hour [24:10] away [24:11] comes up to the front door, knocks on [24:13] the door. [24:14] He had been there the night before. He [24:16] drove all the way back [24:18] because he was so inspired by what he [24:20] experienced at Shabbat dinner [24:22] that he wanted to come and talk to me [24:24] some more. And he we sat for another 2 [24:25] hours. [24:27] And he shared his whole faith journey, [24:28] his whole life story. He was very [24:29] inspired by what took place at Shabbat [24:31] dinner. And it only confirms for me what [24:33] we've been talking about for a long [24:34] time, [24:35] which is that these Shabbat experiences, [24:38] Shabbat dinner, if I had met him for [24:41] coffee in a coffee shop [24:43] the day before, it wouldn't be the same. [24:46] But coming experiencing a Shabbat [24:48] dinner, and Jews need to hear this. All [24:50] the Jews listening right now, if you can [24:51] hear my voice, you you need to hear [24:53] this. A Shabbat dinner transforms [24:56] people. It transforms [24:58] when a Christian who is wading into the [25:00] waters of this relationship. And this [25:02] again, this pastor had never been on the [25:04] pro-Israel bandwagon or anything. He [25:05] just he runs a church. He'd visited [25:07] Israel before. Spent a lot of his career [25:09] as a missionary in Uganda. [25:11] You know, good good pastor. [25:14] But this just blew him away. So much so [25:17] again that he drove back over an hour. [25:19] He didn't even know if I'd be home. [25:21] He took a risk. He got in his car and [25:22] drove out because he wanted to talk to [25:23] me some more. Unbelievable. That's [25:26] incredible. The Shabbat experience is [25:28] transformative. It is the one thing that [25:31] I feel like in the Christian faith we [25:34] try and [25:36] do small groups and cell groups and [25:38] fellowship dinners and God built a small [25:41] group fellowship dinner every Friday [25:43] night called Shabbat. Like it's built [25:45] into the divine rhythm. And in all of [25:48] our creativity and marketing and calling [25:51] it life groups and cell groups and [25:53] whatever [25:54] phrase you need to put on it, but at [25:55] some level there's something about in [25:58] the divine calendar gathering on that [26:00] Friday evening, having dinner, spending [26:03] Shabbat worshiping the Lord with your [26:05] family, all that comes with that. And [26:08] when Christians unlock that and realize [26:10] there's not just a permission structure [26:12] for it, but it's actually built for you. [26:15] God designed it so that you could [26:17] experience rest. He did it first and and [26:19] all that we typically talk about, but it [26:21] is. It unlocks something in a Christian [26:24] where that we've been trying to discover [26:26] with modern mechanisms and mean and [26:29] means, but at the end of the day, it [26:31] really it's built in. God God knew what [26:33] he was doing when he designed this [26:34] thing. [26:35] Yeah. [26:37] But as I said, you know, it's a time for [26:38] choosing and I want to shift the topic a [26:41] little bit, Doug, and talk about another [26:43] kind of choosing that's going on cuz, [26:45] you know, I was just mentioning the [26:46] Rabbinical Council of America and the [26:48] Orthodox Union and these Jewish [26:50] organizations who are now more [26:52] comfortable in advocating for Israel [26:54] alongside Christians, which is so [26:56] significant. But there was also a [26:57] headline that came out in the Jewish [26:59] media in America this week that I found [27:02] very disturbing and it just highlighted [27:04] again how we're so much in a time for [27:06] choosing. [27:08] Uh and that is and maybe that's the [27:09] theme of this podcast today that links [27:12] everything that we're talking about [27:13] together. And the headline has to do [27:14] with the Jewish Theological Seminary. [27:17] The Jewish Theological Seminary is the [27:19] flagship [27:21] institution of the what's called the [27:24] Conservative Jewish movement, which is a [27:27] denomination of Judaism. And don't let [27:29] the word Conservative fool you. It's [27:31] actually very confusing to people [27:32] nowadays because we think of [27:34] Conservative as Conservative. But [27:36] Conservative Judaism is basically it's [27:39] one of the progressive non-Orthodox [27:42] denominations of Judaism. The reason [27:44] it's called Conservative is really a [27:45] historical artifact at this point that [27:47] when it started, it was the more it was [27:50] a more Conservative alternative [27:52] uh [27:53] than Reform Judaism, which was more [27:56] liberal. So, it was and Reform Judaism [27:58] actually called itself Liberal Judaism [28:00] for a for a time. And Conservative [28:02] Judaism was the alternative cuz it was [28:04] kind of [28:05] also not Orthodox, but more Conservative [28:07] at the time. But nowadays, there's not a [28:09] whole lot of difference [28:11] between Reform and Conservative. There's [28:12] some sort of cosmetic differences in [28:14] terms of some a little bit more practice [28:17] in Conservative Judaism. [28:19] But the Jewish Theological Seminary, [28:21] which is their their seminary, [28:23] invited Israeli President Herzog to be [28:27] the commencement speaker. [28:30] And there's a divide now among the [28:33] students at the school. There was a [28:35] letter written by, according to the [28:38] forwards, several seniors and dozens of [28:41] other current students and alumni [28:44] calling on the school to disinvite [28:46] Herzog. Now, why they want to disinvite [28:47] him? [28:49] The reason they want to disinvite him [28:52] has to do with [28:54] basically what they call his support [28:57] for genocide. And that's pretty much [29:00] what they say here. [29:01] They they write that, you know, one of [29:03] the students wrote the letter, said, "I [29:05] I feel powerless. I feel like there's a [29:07] genocide happening and the silence is [29:09] killing us." They were upset that [29:12] President Herzog, the president of the [29:13] state of Israel, [29:15] was being invited because [29:17] because they're uncomfortable with [29:19] Israel's war against Gaza, which is [29:21] unbelievable. You think about it. These [29:22] are not These aren't just like Jewish [29:24] students who are assimilated, who are on [29:26] a college campus, who are part of the [29:28] anti-Israel protests, which there were [29:30] lots of. One of the one of the most [29:32] disturbing things about all those campus [29:33] protests, those anti-Israel campus [29:35] protests that we saw is like the dirty [29:37] little secret is that a lot of the [29:38] leadership of those protests, [29:40] unfortunately, on those Ivy League [29:42] campuses was Jewish. [29:43] Jewish students who turned on Israel. [29:45] But here you have rabbinical students. [29:47] These are students who are ostensibly [29:49] going to be leading synagogues, being in [29:51] leadership positions in Jewish [29:52] communities, who are uncomfortable with [29:55] Herzog, the president of Israel, who's [29:57] actually not even right-wing. He's He [29:59] was a He was the leader of the of the [30:01] main left-wing party in Israel before he [30:03] became president and ran for prime [30:05] minister against Netanyahu as a leftist. [30:08] So, he's viewed as more center-left in [30:10] Israel, for sure, but he's certainly not [30:13] a right-wing. He's not identified with [30:15] the right or with the or with the [30:16] Orthodox, who you would traditionally [30:18] think that a Jewish theological seminary [30:20] student might be uncomfortable with, but [30:22] they're uncomfortable with him because [30:23] of [30:24] of the Gaza of what of what we're doing [30:27] in Gaza, which means that they're [30:28] basically accusing my children and the [30:30] other IDF soldiers fighting of [30:32] committing genocide, and these are going [30:34] to be leaders of the Jewish community. [30:36] Now, there was another letter written by [30:38] some other students in the senior class [30:41] saying that they wanted to hear from [30:43] from Herzog. They quote one of the [30:45] students who signed that letter in the [30:46] article, and it's not like he was saying [30:48] he wanted to hear from Herzog because [30:49] he's pro-Israel. The student said he [30:52] wanted to hear from Herzog because even [30:54] though it makes us uncomfortable, I [30:55] still want to hear from someone that we [30:57] disagree with. Meaning, this student [30:58] also agreed [31:00] that it's a problem to invite you know, [31:01] that that [31:03] that Israel's a problem. And these are [31:04] Jewish These are students in a in the [31:07] Jewish Theological Seminary. It just [31:09] shows you [31:09] >> So, so what did the university do? Did [31:11] the university [31:12] >> pushed back and and they [31:14] they didn't give in. The chancellor they [31:16] were Look, the administration was [31:17] horrified. That's part of the article. [31:19] That's part of what it writes about in [31:20] the forward in this piece, that they [31:22] were horrified by this and they're [31:23] pushing back, but [31:25] whatever's happening there, I just [31:26] wanted to I just I saw this and I [31:29] thought to myself, wait a second. [31:31] Look what's going on in the Jewish [31:32] Theological Seminary. What does this say [31:35] about the non-Orthodox streams of [31:37] Judaism? Because Reform is even more [31:40] left-wing. And according to polling from [31:43] Pew Research, even before October 7th, [31:45] both in the Reform and Conservative [31:46] movements, the younger generations are [31:48] moving away from support for Israel. And [31:50] now we're seeing them being out and out [31:52] anti-Israel, actually supporting [31:54] anti-Israel talking points. Wow. And [31:57] it's [31:58] what So, when I contrast that on the one [32:01] hand [32:02] with what's going on in Washington, D.C. [32:04] this week [32:05] and you see this shifting going on both [32:09] in the Christian world and in the Jewish [32:11] world, and that's why I say it's a time [32:12] for choosing. People are really choosing [32:14] their sides. You know, what does it mean [32:16] about their commitment to Jewish [32:18] destiny, to Jewish peoplehood, to Jewish [32:21] nationhood? These students who are going [32:23] to be ordained, and I put that in air [32:26] quotes, ordained as rabbis by the Jewish [32:28] Theological Seminary, [32:30] and yet they they believe that my [32:33] children and the other heroes of the IDF [32:35] are committing genocide in the Gaza [32:37] Strip? [32:38] It's a [32:39] It's astounding to me. I'm not even sure [32:41] what comment to make here. I just wanted [32:43] to bring this up because I think it's [32:46] it's part of the bigger picture of this [32:48] time period that we're living in where [32:50] things are getting sorted out. [32:53] And we're in the middle of it and it's [32:54] >> Israel's that Israel's that plumb line. [32:56] It's It's heaven's plumb line. Like God [32:58] has [32:59] you know, decided from [33:02] eternity's foundation that the Jewish [33:04] people were going to be the apple of his [33:05] eye and then he was going to establish [33:07] them. And you know, the prophets say [33:09] that you know, he's going to make [33:10] Jerusalem a stumbling block that anybody [33:12] that tries to move it like there there's [33:13] so many of those verses repeated and [33:15] repeated and repeated that God is doing [33:18] it on the earth and it's going to be a [33:21] dividing line for a lot of folks and [33:24] it's happening in the church, it's [33:25] happening in the Jewish world. And like [33:27] I said earlier, [33:28] you know, I don't need to be right, I [33:29] just need to be on God's side. [33:31] >> [laughter] [33:31] >> Well, that's what the Bible says. I [33:32] mean, this is this is what it boils down [33:34] to. [33:35] You know, [33:36] in both Judaism and in Christianity [33:38] we have theology and we have the Bible. [33:42] And when people start to [33:45] put their theological [33:48] their inherited theological positions [33:51] above the word of the Bible. Now, [33:53] theology is important. We we try to [33:55] figure God out as best we can. [33:57] That's what theology is. [33:59] We're trying to figure God out, but we [34:01] can never [34:02] >> [clears throat] [34:03] >> turn our theological suppositions into [34:05] axioms [34:06] that supersede what God wrote in the [34:09] Bible and what God does on this earth. [34:11] So, if you have real faith in God and [34:13] you have real faith in the word of God, [34:16] that's where that's where you end up [34:19] being pro-Israel. [34:21] And those who stray from faith in God or [34:24] or stray from faith in [34:27] the words of the Bible, and that's where [34:29] on the Christian side you'll have people [34:30] who who are so into certain inherited [34:33] theological ideas about replacement [34:35] theology, etc., that it takes them away [34:38] from just what did God say in the book? [34:40] And so, in a sense, the Christian [34:42] Zionist versus anti-Christian Zionist [34:45] internal fight has a lot to do with are [34:48] you placing the the Bible over your [34:51] inherited theology or are you in placing [34:53] your placing your inherited theology [34:54] over the Bible? And what we're seeing in [34:56] JTS and on the Jewish left is they don't [34:59] really believe in the divinity of the [35:00] Bible at all. They don't profess belief [35:02] in the Bible as a as a as a divine text. [35:06] And for them and theologically, I mean, [35:08] theologically they're just progressive [35:10] Their theology is the theology of the [35:11] progressive left. [35:13] And so, that's the lens through which [35:16] they see things. That's why I say this [35:18] is There's a lot of choices being made [35:20] by people right now and and Israel's [35:23] right at the center of it, and I think [35:24] that's the way God wants it. You know, [35:25] I've never been one with all with my [35:27] entire career in in Israel advocacy, [35:29] I've never been one of those people who [35:31] complains that there's too much focus on [35:33] Israel in the media. There's a lot of [35:34] Jews who who who do that. They How come [35:36] they're focusing on us so much? You [35:38] know, that's as though that's part of [35:39] the bias. And I'm always like, whoa, [35:40] whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'll complain [35:42] about all kinds of things, but I won't [35:43] complain about that because we're [35:44] supposed to be the focus. We need to be [35:46] the focus. When we're the focus, it [35:47] means that people are paying attention [35:48] to what God is doing. They might hate [35:50] what God is doing, they might love what [35:52] God is doing, but when they're focused [35:53] on us, they're focusing on what God is [35:54] doing through Israel, and we're supposed [35:56] to be the focus, and that's ultimately I [35:58] believe, you know, we believe the end is [36:00] good. It's going to lead everyone to see [36:01] the truth, [36:02] and and and God's glory will be revealed [36:05] on this earth through what he's doing [36:06] with Israel. That's the plan. [36:08] But But and I think that's where the [36:10] resistance is coming from, where it's [36:11] getting it's getting more and more [36:13] extreme. You know, so when Tucker [36:14] Carlson says that the people he hates [36:16] most are Christian Zionists, of course [36:18] he then, you know, walks it back, but [36:19] that only speak you know, speaks to the [36:21] fact that he blurted it out because he [36:22] really feels that way. [36:24] Or you see these or you see these [36:26] Jewish rabbinical students, and whatever [36:28] percentage of the of the campus it is, I [36:30] don't know, but you see these Jewish [36:32] rabbinical students who are [36:34] who believe that Israel's committing [36:35] genocide so much so that they won't even [36:37] listen to the president of the State of [36:39] Israel, even though JTS [36:41] officially as an institution is a [36:43] Zionist institution, you see that [36:45] there's there's a lot a lot happening [36:46] right now and it only I'm bringing all [36:49] of this into my mindset as we walk into [36:51] the room in Washington over these next [36:53] couple of days to really roll up our [36:55] sleeves and be bold about advocating for [36:58] Israel. [37:00] It's going to be a great week in D.C. [37:02] I'm looking forward to being with you [37:03] and it does it feels [37:05] like prophetic and divine times. This is [37:07] a divine appointment here in Washington. [37:10] My family's moving to Israel feels like [37:12] a divine appointment and all of the [37:14] consternation around Israel is also [37:17] prophetic alignment and divine [37:18] appointment and it is a time for [37:20] choosing as you said, Pesach. And I [37:22] think that's a good place for us to wrap [37:25] up this episode of Shoulder to Shoulder. [37:27] >> Amen, Doug. [37:28] Well, it'd be good to see you. [37:31] All right, folks. Thank you for [37:32] listening to today's episode. If you [37:33] enjoyed this episode, please like, rate, [37:35] share this podcast. Come on over to [37:37] Patreon, subscribe, do what you do, like [37:40] our page on Facebook, join our group, [37:42] come by YouTube, check out us on [37:44] YouTube, check us out at Pesach's [37:46] YouTube right now. We would love to [37:48] connect with more and more of our [37:50] Shoulder to Shoulder family and we'll [37:51] see you on our next episode.
