Transcript [00:00] The destruction is the fault of Hamas. [00:03] The Israel's mistake is it should never [00:06] have declared war. Israel's mistake is [00:09] never war again. Absolutely. And in [00:12] fact, Israel's mistake is it should have [00:13] declared war on Gaza. Many of the people [00:16] who are in Hamas are controlling the [00:19] people of Gaza. And so, Israel is [00:21] fighting a war against a nation. And [00:24] Israel is destroying the capacity of [00:26] Hamas which it has promised it would [00:28] repeat over and over and over again and [00:31] it has succeeded. Israel is fighting [00:33] back against its enemies and its enemies [00:36] are Hamas and allow their houses to be [00:39] used for terrorist tunnels. So, you [00:43] know, it can get frustrating when you're [00:46] trying to argue with people on the left [00:48] who think that Israel committed genocide [00:50] and have that whole worldview that goes [00:53] along with that. [00:55] And increasingly, I just think that [00:57] we're we are living in alternate [00:59] realities and getting further and [01:00] further apart from each other because [01:03] there's just no agreement on what the [01:06] objective facts are. And [01:10] you know there's I I think that where we [01:13] are is that everyone is being forced to [01:16] choose which perspective [01:20] do you endorse like how seriously do you [01:24] take things like evidence do you believe [01:27] in objective good and evil? Do you [01:29] believe in a concept called victory uh [01:32] and the value of victory in defeating [01:34] evil? Certain these are the concepts I [01:36] talk about these concepts all the time. [01:38] I think that's what we're facing here. I [01:40] want to play you a a clip of uh [01:45] of a panel discussion. You could call it [01:48] a screaming match on Piers Morgan. We [01:51] have Anakasparian Joe Kent from the [01:53] anti-Israel wing. And we have Alan [01:55] Dersowitz and Josh Hammer from our side. [01:58] And I was particularly impressed with [02:00] Professor Alan Dersowitz. He's a man in [02:03] his mid to late 80s and he is just sharp [02:05] as attack. the way and and uh he doesn't [02:09] back down an inch and I want to just [02:11] comment on some of the things that are [02:12] said. So here's the clip. [02:15] >> Who is the head of uh West Point's study [02:19] of urban warfare has correctly said that [02:22] no country in the history of warfare has [02:25] ever done war to protect the civilians [02:27] of enemy countries. [02:29] >> Yeah. But unfortunately, Alan Alan, [02:31] unfortunately, I have to say I have to [02:33] jump in there because don't assault our [02:34] he came on this show and he came up very [02:37] short, unfortunately, because when I [02:39] began to press him on specific numbers [02:42] that he could use. [02:43] >> Well, I'll give you specific numbers, [02:45] >> but he had no idea. Yes, he couldn't say [02:47] how many civilians had died. All he knew [02:49] was the ratio of combat to civilian was [02:51] the greatest ever. I said, "Well, how do [02:53] you know that if you don't know the [02:55] number?" [02:57] Well, you do know the number because [02:58] Hamas gives a number. Even if you take [03:00] the Hamas false numbers, the ratio is [03:03] approximately 2 and a half to one, which [03:06] compares to a 7:1 ratio for NATO and [03:09] other Western countries. There's been no [03:11] country in the history of urban warfare [03:14] who has had a lower ratio of civilian to [03:17] combatant deaths. And that's just a [03:20] fact. And the idea that you call Israel [03:23] a genocidal country when it has fed its [03:26] enemies, inoculated its enemies, and [03:30] protected its enemies, given hospital [03:32] beds, women, [03:34] Adam, what did you think? Anti-semitic. [03:36] >> Alan, Alan, what did you think when you [03:38] saw [03:40] >> Adam when you [03:41] >> Hold on before we go on the just to get [03:44] to the numbers that we're talking about. [03:45] The Gaza Health Ministry, [03:47] which is Hamas, [03:49] says that somewhere in the range of [03:52] 72,000 [03:54] people have been killed in this war. And [03:55] that includes the kamas combatants. They [03:57] don't count them any differently. The [04:00] estimate is that 20 to 22,000 [04:03] of the like let's say I think it's [04:06] 22,000 is the estimate as of the [04:09] ceasefire last year. So there's add a [04:11] couple at a thousand or 2,000 more. um [04:15] have been killed who were who were kamas [04:17] combatants. So subtract those from 70 [04:20] and so you have let's say like it's like [04:23] 50ish to 20. So it's 2 1/2 to one, [04:26] right? That's the number approximately. [04:28] These are round numbers. That's when [04:29] when Dura would says 2 and a half to [04:30] one. 2 and a half civilians per kamas [04:33] combatant. And the reason that Spencer [04:35] didn't know exact numbers. Spencer [04:36] doesn't want to time himself down [04:37] because these are all estimates anyway. [04:39] They're broad estimates. Uh so I don't [04:41] know what interview Piers Morgan's [04:43] talking about with John Spencer. But you [04:45] see that Dura was just talking about [04:46] numbers. Look, the whole genocide claim [04:48] is so absurd. As he said, we inoculated [04:50] them. We fed them. The population in [04:52] Gaza grew. People just don't know what [04:54] the term genocide actually means. [04:56] >> Saw the Google when you saw the Google [04:58] Earth images. And this showed the state [05:02] of Gaza now with 75 to 80% of the entire [05:06] Gaza Strip just raised, gone, vaporized. [05:10] you whatever you want to call that, that [05:13] is a systematic destruction of Gaza. I [05:16] mean, you you wouldn't dispute the [05:18] categorization. [05:19] >> It's I would the order the the [05:23] destruction is a result of the fact that [05:25] Gaza that Hamas has used civilian houses [05:30] and civilian tunnels. [05:31] >> But you wouldn't argue it's destruction [05:32] protect its terrorists. You wouldn't [05:34] argue about the scale of the [05:35] destruction. [05:36] >> The destruction is the fault of Hamas. [05:40] The Israel's mistake is it should never [05:43] have declared war. Israel's mistake. Is [05:46] it Hamas's fault in the West Bank as [05:47] well? [05:48] >> But let me let me ask you, Alan, do you [05:50] feel when you see when you see those [05:51] pictures, Alan? Oh, yes. Alan, [05:53] >> you guys are so delusional. [05:54] >> He's destroying is destroying 80% of the [05:57] Gaza Strip a proportionate response to [06:00] October the 7th? That's the question. [06:03] >> Abs. Absolutely. And in fact, Israel's [06:05] mistake is it should have declared war [06:08] on Gaza the way the United States [06:10] declared war on Germany. It didn't [06:12] declare war. [06:13] >> Okay, we're going to get to that point [06:14] in a second, but first I want to talk [06:16] about this proportionality issue. In [06:17] fact, I'm going to pull this video down [06:19] here. You know, before I go on, let me [06:21] just uh remind you about some an [06:23] exciting uh event that we just had that [06:25] you could you could watch it. This past [06:27] Sunday night in Jerusalem, we filled the [06:29] Manakim Bean uh Heritage Center main [06:33] stage. We we packed the house. It was [06:35] sold out. And we had 10 candidates who [06:38] are on the Knesset lists of 10 different [06:40] parties in Israel, all who speak [06:43] English, who spoke to the [06:44] English-speaking community in Jerusalem. [06:47] Uh and uh we had a it was a town hall [06:49] for the Knesset elections. It was a [06:51] great event. We had a it was uh it was [06:54] very informative. It was civil, but [06:56] while at the same time, you know, very [06:58] interesting and uh it was wonderful. [07:01] ended the evening by everyone singing [07:02] hatikva together. And you can watch this [07:05] uh the video of this if you just click [07:07] the link in the description of this [07:08] video or go to israel365.com/occtober [07:12] 4th October number44th [07:14] and uh and and then we'll send you the [07:18] clip that you can watch the whole thing. [07:19] Now I want to talk about this whole [07:21] issue of proportionality [07:24] uh and uh you know civilian casualties [07:26] and all this and warfare so that I could [07:28] really put some meat on the bones of [07:29] what Dersawitz was saying there because [07:30] when he said it's not Israel's fault [07:33] it's kamas's fault and that's a fact and [07:36] then Anakin says yeah yeah yeah it's [07:37] never Israel's fault Dowitz is actually [07:39] talking from a legal perspective let me [07:42] explain so we taking a look here at uh [07:45] the what's basically this is the Geneva [07:47] Convention it's rule 14 International [07:49] Humanitarian Law Database. A rule 14, [07:53] proportionality in attack. This is from [07:54] the Geneva Conventions. [07:57] Launching an attack which may be [07:58] expected to cause incidental loss of [08:00] civilian life, injury to civilians, [08:02] damage to civilian objects, or a [08:04] combination thereof, which would be in [08:06] which would be excessive [08:09] in relation to the concrete and direct [08:12] military advantage anticipated is [08:14] prohibited. Okay, mumbo jumbo. No, let [08:17] me explain. What it's saying here is [08:20] that what is proportionality? [08:22] It's a that what's prohibited as [08:25] disproportional [08:26] is where an attack [08:29] will cause damage, injury to civilians, [08:32] civilian life, civilian objects, etc. [08:35] Excessive in relation to the military [08:38] advantage anticipated. Meaning, whenever [08:40] you say something's proportional, you're [08:42] talking about a comparison, [08:44] right? Is this proportional to this? [08:49] But what are you comparing? So you're [08:51] not comparing, oh 1,200 Jews, 1,200 [08:54] Israelis, sorry, and others were were [08:57] massacred on October 7th, and therefore [09:00] it's only proportional if we if we kill [09:02] 1,200 kamas guys. [09:05] Meaning proportionality, how extreme the [09:07] damage is has nothing to do with the [09:10] principle of of proportionality. And [09:11] this is what Piers Morgan doesn't [09:12] understand. He says, "Do you think this [09:14] is proportional when you see all the [09:15] destruction in Gaza?" And Derswood says [09:17] absolutely it's 100% proportional [09:19] because Durowitz is talking from a legal [09:20] perspective [09:22] because you're not the Let me back up. [09:26] Proportionality does not mean [09:27] proportional to the damage the other [09:29] side did. That would be absurd. [09:32] That would be absurd. It has nothing to [09:34] do with defeating threats. It has [09:35] nothing to do with defeating enemies. [09:36] What? You're only supposed to fight a [09:38] fair fight. So if the United States is [09:40] fighting Iran, they're supposed to lower [09:41] what they do to the level of what Iran [09:43] can retaliate with so that everything's [09:45] proportional. It's ridiculous. [09:48] Proportionality means that when you have [09:51] a legitimate military objective, [09:54] you're you're weighing what was done in [09:56] comparison to the military objective. [09:59] And as long as it's proportional, [10:01] meaning if I need to kill a fly that's [10:05] on the table and I take a shotgun or I [10:10] drop a bomb on the table to destroy the [10:12] fly, that's not proportional. [10:14] Okay. It's excessive in relation to the [10:17] military advantage. The military [10:18] advantage of killing a fly does not [10:20] require a bomb. [10:22] Requires a fly swatter. I hope that made [10:24] sense. It's a little strange. You [10:25] understand what I'm saying? Meaning [10:28] whatever your military objective is, [10:30] let's say there is a building, let's [10:32] make it more real now. Gaza Strip, you [10:33] have a you have a residential apartment [10:35] building. It has weapons stored in [10:37] various apartments, in bedrooms, in [10:40] closets, in tunnels underneath the [10:42] building that are there. or it's an [10:43] apartment building or and or it's an [10:45] apartment building that has a rocket [10:46] launcher on the roof and it's used as a [10:49] place where where rockets are launched [10:51] from [10:53] and therefore it has become weaponized. [10:56] This brings us let's go through a few [10:58] rules and talk about them. So what so so [11:00] this rule said that proportionality [11:03] means that the action that you take is [11:06] reasonable to achieve the military [11:08] objective. It's proportional to the [11:10] military objective you want to achieve, [11:11] but it has to be a legitimate military [11:15] objective. So, what's a what's a a [11:17] military objective? [11:19] Rule eight. In so far as objects are [11:22] concerned, military objectives are [11:23] limited to those objects which by their [11:25] nature, location, purpose, or use make [11:28] an effective contribution to military [11:30] action and whose partial or total [11:32] destruction or capture or neutralization [11:33] in the circumstances ruling at the time [11:35] offers a definite military advantage. So [11:38] if there's a building that has weapons [11:39] storehouses in it, it has kamas members [11:41] in it, it has a rocket launcher on the [11:43] roof, any one of the above or all of the [11:45] above, [11:47] defeating my enemy and removing those [11:48] threats and removing that weaponry and [11:50] destroying it. That's all a legitimate [11:52] military objective and therefore I'm [11:54] allowed to do that. That's a legitimate [11:56] military objective. So if someone takes [11:58] a residential home and uses it to store [12:02] weapons or to launch attacks, etc., [12:04] They're taking a civilian target and [12:06] turning it into a legitimate military [12:08] objective. Okay. The parties to the [12:12] conflict shall to the maximum extent [12:14] feasible without prejudice article 49 [12:17] endeavor to remove the civilian [12:18] population, individual civilians and [12:20] civilian objects under their control [12:22] from the vicinity of military objectives [12:24] and avoid locating military objectives [12:26] within or near densely populated areas. [12:29] You're not allowed to put stores of [12:32] weapons, rocket launchers, etc., fight [12:35] combatants in deliberately put them into [12:38] civilian areas because if you do that, [12:40] you're turning them into legitimate [12:41] military objectives, [12:46] right? You're supposed to take the other [12:49] necessary precautions to protect the [12:51] civilian population, individual [12:52] civilians, and civilian objects under [12:54] their control against the dangers [12:56] resulting from military operations. [12:57] which means that if you turn a civilian [12:59] target into a legitimate military [13:01] target, if you violate article 58, which [13:05] means that now it's a it's a legitimate [13:06] military target, which means that [13:08] whatever you need to do to destroy it, [13:10] you you can do to remove the threat. And [13:13] think of the tunnels, the tunnels [13:14] snaking under every city street [13:16] practically in Gaza, under all the [13:17] houses, under all the buildings. There's [13:19] there's pop-up shafts all over the place [13:21] and in hospitals, etc. removing that [13:24] that tunnel network is a legitimate [13:26] military objective. So whatever it takes [13:28] to do that is proportional. The fact [13:30] that all the buildings are destroyed is [13:31] because if you talk to Israeli soldiers [13:33] who were in Gaza, they'll tell you that [13:34] in every single residential home, there [13:37] were weapons stores and and rocket [13:39] launchers and everything. These were [13:41] legitimate targets, [13:44] right? Right. And here also article 20. [13:48] Article 20 says that if you have a a [13:50] civilian zone like let's say something [13:53] like a hospital protection of civilian [13:55] hospital staff, [13:57] it says [13:59] what it says here. [14:02] Um [14:08] they're if they're in a zone of military [14:10] operation, the above personnel shall be [14:12] recognizable by an identity identity [14:14] card. Right? You can you can separate [14:17] them out. You can mention them as [14:19] civilians. [14:21] The kamas do that? Hamas weaponized [14:24] these places. Okay. So that's so that's [14:27] what I I wanted to you know take this [14:29] opportunity in this this interview this [14:30] spot in the interview to explain some of [14:34] those issues. Let's watch a little more [14:35] of it. [14:36] >> The Nazi party. It declared war on [14:39] Germany. Hamas is controlling [14:42] the people of Gaza and many of the [14:44] people who are in Hamas are controlling [14:48] the people of Gaza. And so Israel is [14:50] fighting a war against a nation, the [14:53] nation of Gaza that elected Hamas to be [14:56] its leaders. And yes, Israel is [14:59] destroying the capacity of Hamas to [15:02] repeat October 7th, which it has [15:04] promised it would repeat over and over [15:06] and over again, and it has succeeded. [15:09] Look, Jewish blood is no longer cheap [15:11] the way it was during the Holocaust, the [15:14] way it has been for many years. Israel [15:16] is fighting back against its enemies and [15:19] its enemies are Hamas and its enemies [15:22] are the people of what Israel is doing [15:24] support Hamas and allow their houses to [15:27] be used for terrorist tunnels. [15:29] >> Okay. Yeah, I I don't that part is [15:31] clearly that's part of the problem. I [15:33] agree. But let me come to to Joe Ken. [15:35] You know this the problem with all this [15:38] is that Israel and pro-Israelis come on [15:41] my show, they they all say this. They [15:43] all say we have to do this. is going [15:45] great. This is what we had to do. We're [15:47] going to stop it. A I don't think it's [15:49] going to stop anything. I think when you [15:51] have this kind of wholesale slaughter [15:53] we've seen in Gaza, in southern Lebanon, [15:56] in you know, wherever you you're going [15:58] to make more enemies than you take out. [16:00] And I think I read a report from the CIA [16:02] actually um re couple of months ago [16:05] saying they thought they thought for [16:06] every one Hamas terrorist who've been [16:09] killed there maybe five more come [16:10] through with the same ideology. I don't [16:12] really buy into the argument that Israel [16:14] is. [16:14] >> You can say the same thing about Nazi [16:16] Germany. You could say the same thing [16:18] about Nazi Germany. No, we defeated Nazi [16:20] Germany and they didn't repeat their [16:23] atrocities and the same thing in Japan. [16:26] Israel is doing the same thing. I was [16:28] about to say, [16:28] >> okay, let me explain what Alan Ders is [16:30] saying here that PICE is just not [16:31] getting. He doesn't and let me put it in [16:34] these terms. Franklin Delano Roosevelt [16:37] declared in the middle of World War II [16:39] that the only acceptable outcome of the [16:40] war would be unconditional surrender of [16:42] Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. [16:45] And that was a an ethical stance, an [16:48] ethical stance [16:51] because [16:52] the [16:55] the humiliation, and I don't even mean [16:57] that as a negative thing. You want to [16:59] humiliate evil. Evil is an ideology. And [17:02] the way you the way you knock it out of [17:04] people, [17:05] the way you is you have to you have to [17:07] have unequivocal victory over it. [17:09] Unequivocal means I'm going to be very [17:12] specific. It means that the side that [17:14] lost itself admits that it lost itself [17:17] knows it lost. Its population can see [17:20] unequivocally with there's no way to [17:22] interpret it any other way. They [17:24] actually surrender. [17:27] They're on their knees surrendering. It [17:29] has to happen. And that changes hearts [17:31] and minds. There's a reason why Imperial [17:33] Japan and Nazi Germany both became [17:36] peaceful societies [17:39] so quickly. [17:41] That has to happen. That's victory. [17:44] There's actually a moral value to [17:46] victory. And that's another one of these [17:48] things which is like increasingly this [17:50] is what I said at the beginning of this [17:51] video that increasingly I feel like [17:53] there's just simply two world views. And [17:56] one is morally rel one's a moral [17:58] relativist worldview and one believes in [18:01] good and evil and the necessity of [18:03] defeating evil and that is the [18:04] responsibility of good people to do so [18:06] and everything that flows from that and [18:11] you know I I love I love you know [18:13] Dersowitz's uh he's really uh he's not [18:16] backing down. Let's watch a little more [18:17] of it. [18:18] >> I was about to say history will [18:20] determine whether the same thing will [18:22] happen here. I'm I'm not convinced it [18:24] will, but history will determine that. I [18:26] don't know. Obviously, um the [18:28] alternative was the point to just to let [18:30] them do it. [18:30] >> Hang on. point I made to Joe Ken. You [18:32] see that shouldn't be lost [18:35] when [18:37] you know people are like why are you [18:40] you're just going and going and going [18:41] until you defeat Hamas like you maybe [18:43] you can't defeat them and he's like of [18:45] course and Ders is like of course we can [18:46] defeat them and we have to and he says [18:48] to Piers what's your alternative and [18:50] this is the side this this goes together [18:53] with not really believing in victory [18:54] these people believe that we are just [19:00] um we We we should accept the fact that [19:04] we're going to be living with the evils [19:06] of groups like kamas forever. [19:08] Why should we accept that? Why shouldn't [19:10] we drive towards victory? Why shouldn't [19:12] we strive to eradicate an evil ideology [19:14] from planet earth? Why shouldn't we see [19:17] it as our responsibility? [19:20] But these moral relativists don't really [19:21] believe in good and evil. [19:24] is that notwithstanding the sort of [19:26] impassioned defense of this from [19:28] pro-Israeli guests I get, the reality is [19:31] the longer this has gone on, the more [19:33] that the Israelis have bombed Gaza, [19:36] southern Lebanon, Iran. Uh the more this [19:39] has the more Syria the more this has [19:41] gone on the more unpopular Israel has [19:44] become [19:45] >> around the world in particular in [19:46] American. [19:58] >> Okay let Joe [19:59] >> Israel has to rely on on friend on [20:02] strength and not friends like Casparian. [20:04] In other words, you're telling me that [20:07] Israel is becoming more and more [20:08] unpopular. [20:10] That's not our measure of whether what [20:12] we're doing is right or wrong. The Jews, [20:16] the progressive Jews in America who are [20:19] embarrassed of Israel and who buy the [20:21] progressive narrative and are [20:23] increasingly turning against Israel, [20:26] they do measure what Israel does based [20:28] on whether or not it makes us popular or [20:30] unpopular. as though worldwide [20:32] popularity is a measure of morality. [20:37] We we we simply do not think that way. [20:40] We are proud of who we are and we're [20:42] going to defend ourselves. What's our [20:44] alternative? You want us to roll over [20:45] and go away? [20:48] Why should we compromise to evil? [20:51] Anyway, [20:53] I'm going to leave it there. That's what [20:55] I wanted to uh share with you. I just [20:56] thought Alan Dersawitz was uh you know, [20:58] he did he did a great job pushing back. [21:00] It's a little bit of a circus there on [21:02] peers, [21:04] but uh again, [21:07] we're just living in two different [21:08] realities. You either care about truth [21:12] and about and you believe in good and [21:14] evil and objective reality, casualty [21:18] numbers. [21:21] Or [21:23] or you don't or you're a moral [21:26] relativist and you make accommodation [21:28] for evil. and you resent those who are [21:31] willing to fight it and are striving for [21:33] victory. That's what the other side is. [21:36] Anyway, I'm going to leave it there. [21:38] Thanks for watching. Please like, [21:40] subscribe, leave a comment. Let me know [21:41] what you thought of this one. I do read [21:43] the comments. So, thanks a lot. God [21:45] bless.
