Transcript [00:01] Hey everyone. So, I want to take a look [00:02] at this uh [00:04] at this clip that's going around, [00:06] Coleman Hughes interviewing Peter [00:09] Beinart talking about the right of [00:11] return, the Palestinian right of return. [00:14] And look, I like Coleman Hughes. I think [00:16] he's sharp, but in this exchange he lets [00:18] Beinart get away with murder. [00:21] So, I want to play a piece of this and [00:23] then unpack it because there's so much [00:24] wrong with what Beinart says here that [00:26] if you only push back on the [00:28] surface-level claims, which is basically [00:30] all Coleman did, then you're missing the [00:32] whole game. So, let's [00:34] let's start with this clip here. [00:36] >> The people should have the right to go [00:38] to this place in order to be safe. [00:40] Surely, a Palestinian refugee in Syria, [00:44] in Lebanon, if for that matter in Gaza [00:47] or the West Bank would have a better [00:48] claim than me. [00:50] >> Yeah, they would they would have a they [00:52] would have a claim if they're unsafe. Um [00:55] They well, they would have a claim to be [00:57] a refugee and go anywhere in principle. [00:59] That's like [01:00] >> But what if they want to go to the place [01:01] they're from? [01:03] >> I understand that, but the part of the [01:06] impetus for Zionism [01:08] was that there really was [01:10] really was nowhere else to go, right? [01:12] Effectively in in in the 1940s. It's [01:14] like they couldn't come to America. Um [01:17] if they could have come to America, that [01:18] that would have been great as far as I'm [01:19] concerned. Um but [01:23] you know, if you [01:24] what about the case of [01:27] um a a Palestinian [01:30] in in America Oh, here's here's here's [01:32] the point I was going to make. So, [01:34] in the context of the two-state [01:35] solution, as you know, part of the right [01:37] of return demand demand is not a mere [01:41] right of return for Palestinians to [01:45] a future hypothetical Palestinian state [01:47] or Palestinian statelet where they would [01:49] be in an ethnic majority and an [01:51] Arabic-speaking Muslim majority context, [01:54] right? It's it's a [01:56] the right of return to the Jewish state. [01:59] Right? And that was one of the sticking [02:00] points in the 2000 negotiations. It's [02:03] not only do we want to write of return [02:05] to the to the Arab state inside historic [02:07] Palestine, we want to write of return to [02:10] the Jewish state. So, what what [02:12] justifies that logic? [02:15] >> Well, it's because the the people who [02:16] are from Haifa and and Jaffa or Safed or [02:19] many other places, their families were [02:21] expelled from those places in the [02:24] creation of a Jewish state. There could [02:25] never have been a Jewish state created [02:28] without those acts of mass expulsion. [02:34] >> Okay. Let's stop it right there. [02:38] There could never have been a Jewish [02:39] state without those acts of mass [02:41] expulsion. Just sitting there stated as [02:42] a fact like it's not even up for debate. [02:44] And Kolman does not push back on this. [02:46] We'll see we're going to watch the rest [02:47] of this soon. [02:48] He moves straight into this whole [02:49] conversation about whether it's [02:50] reasonable to want to live where your [02:52] grandfather lived. We'll get to that. [02:55] And it's fine. It's an interesting [02:56] conversation, but you can't have that [02:58] conversation until you've dealt with the [02:59] premise underneath it. And the premise [03:01] is all wrong. [03:04] He also Kolman also talks about historic [03:06] Palestine. You notice he he threw that [03:08] in there. I think it's just that's just [03:10] ignorance. He just does not know. [03:12] And so there are three things going on [03:14] in this clip that no one challenges. And [03:16] once you see them [03:17] uh I mean I I'll I'll help you see them [03:19] and this is where Beinart's argument [03:21] falls apart. [03:23] Number one. [03:25] This whole framing assumes that [03:28] there's this ancient continuous [03:29] Palestinian people who had a homeland [03:31] and got kicked out of it. And Beinart [03:33] talks about you know, uh [03:35] you know, elsewhere in this in this [03:37] interview talks about their civic [03:39] national culture. He talks about [03:40] families from Jaffa. Like this is an old [03:43] settled national identity the way that [03:45] you know, the way Jewish identity is. [03:47] So, this is a lie [03:49] that the more history you know, the more [03:51] obviously false it becomes. And this is [03:53] one of the big deal one of the big [03:54] issues with with the history of Israel, [03:56] the Israel-Palestinian conflict, is that [03:58] the less you know about it, the more you [04:00] will be against Israel. The more history [04:02] you know, the more you [04:04] end up being pro-Israel. It's kind of [04:06] the way it always goes. [04:08] So, I made this point before. [04:10] Go find the leaders of the Arab movement [04:12] in Palestine themselves in their own [04:14] words before [04:16] this Palestinian national identity got [04:19] invented. And it got invented pretty [04:20] late. Doesn't show up until like the [04:22] '50s at earliest. [04:25] Okay, in 1937, [04:27] there was a guy named Awni Bey Abdul [04:29] Hadi, and he tells the British Peel [04:31] Commission [04:34] trying to sort out [04:35] this whole area, and he told them, [04:37] quote, "There's no such country as [04:39] Palestine. Palestine is a term the [04:41] Zionists invented. There's no Palestine [04:44] in the Bible. Our country was for [04:45] centuries part of Syria." [04:48] That's not me saying it. That's their [04:49] own guy. In the 1946, Philip Hitti, an [04:52] Arab-American, a Princeton historian, [04:54] testifying to the Anglo-American [04:56] Committee, quote, "There's no such thing [04:58] as Palestine in history. Absolutely [05:00] not." [05:02] And then in 1947, the Arab Higher [05:04] Committee, that's like the the uh [05:08] like the committee that represented the [05:09] Arab people living in [05:11] in that land. Just like the Jews had [05:13] like the Jewish Agency, right? So, the [05:14] Arab Higher Committee, these own [05:16] representative, [05:17] tells the UN General Assembly the same [05:20] thing, that Palestine is part of Syria, [05:22] that the Arabs of Palestine aren't a [05:24] separate political entity. Right? They [05:26] said that the word Palestine was a [05:27] Jewish word. [05:29] Cuz really the British brought that word [05:30] in. No Arabs in this in the Middle East [05:33] ever heard of that place or a place [05:35] being called Palestine. They never heard [05:36] that before. This whole region where [05:38] Israel, Jordan, Syria, it was all just [05:41] called Southern Syria. And even Syria [05:43] wasn't a country. It was just a region. [05:45] The guy who later [05:47] becomes chairman of the PLO, Ahmed [05:50] Shukairy, was quoted as once saying, [05:54] "It is common knowledge that Palestine [05:56] is nothing but Southern Syria." So, [05:57] here's a fun game you can play with [05:58] anyone who tells you about the ancient [06:00] Palestinian nation. Ask them to name one [06:02] person, a king, a sheikh, an emir, a [06:05] leader, uh I don't know, a famous author [06:08] who was famous as a leader of the [06:10] Palestinian people [06:12] and known that way [06:14] before the middle of the 20th century. [06:17] Or even the leader of the population in [06:18] that land. [06:20] Some political figure who led them at [06:22] some point a 200 years ago, 300 years [06:24] ago, 400 years ago. [06:26] Give me a name. [06:29] You'll get silence. [06:31] But here's the kicker that really seals [06:33] it. From 1948 to 1967, [06:36] I always bring this up. [06:38] From 1948 to 1967, from the founding of [06:41] the state of Israel till the Six-Day [06:42] War, 19 years, the West Bank, what's [06:44] called the West Bank, Judea and Samaria, [06:46] was governed by Jordan. [06:49] The Gaza Strip was governed by Egypt, [06:51] Arab rule in both of them. And for [06:53] during those 19 years, there was nobody [06:55] anywhere who was [06:57] who was raising the issue of the [06:59] Palestinian people, who was talking [07:00] about a Palestinian state. No one was [07:02] talking about it. [07:05] There was no such movement during that [07:06] time. [07:07] The demand only shows up after 1967. [07:11] The second those territories come under [07:13] Israeli control, if this was really [07:15] about Palestinian self-determination, [07:17] where was everyone for those 19 years? [07:19] And that tells you everything, cuz it [07:21] was never about a Palestinian state. It [07:22] was always about [07:24] not allowing Jews to be sovereign in the [07:26] land. [07:28] Number two, Barnett says, "Acts of mass [07:31] mass expulsion." That they were the oh [07:32] there could never have been a Jewish [07:33] state without acts of mass mass [07:35] expulsion. [07:37] Like Israel ran a deportation campaign. [07:39] And this is totally backwards. Let's [07:41] deal with who actually started this. The [07:42] Arab Higher Committee, before the [07:45] partition vote even happened, before the [07:48] UN partition vote in 1947, [07:52] he said they would drench, quote, the [07:54] soil of our beloved country with the [07:56] last drop of our blood. [07:58] End quote. The day after the UN passed [08:00] the partition plan and on November 29th, [08:03] 1947, [08:06] they said that they will fight for every [08:07] inch of it. Al-Azhar, which is like the [08:10] premier Islamic, uh, [08:12] institute of higher education in Egypt, [08:15] Al-Azhar's clerics called for a jihad. [08:19] And their own guy, Jamal Husseini, tells [08:21] the UN Security Council straight out in [08:23] April of 1948, quote, "The [08:25] representative of the Jewish agency told [08:27] us yesterday that they were not the [08:29] attackers, that the Arabs had begun the [08:31] fighting. We do not deny this. We told [08:34] the whole world we were going to fight." [08:37] Okay, that's not a Jewish historian. [08:38] That's the Arab Higher Committee's own [08:39] spokesperson and spokesman saying on the [08:42] record that we that we, the Arabs, [08:44] started it. [08:46] And that's critical. They started a war [08:48] against this this UN partition plan. The [08:50] the Jews accept it, the Arabs refuse and [08:53] attack. If they had accepted it, no one [08:56] would have been displaced, not a single [08:57] person. [08:59] Now, what about the flight itself, the [09:00] running away? What was it Israel pushing [09:03] people out, expelling people? Listen to [09:05] what their own people said at the time, [09:07] at the time, not since then, not now [09:09] that everything's been politicized and [09:10] we have this whole Palestinian [09:11] narrative, which is [09:12] mostly BS. [09:15] The Economist, October 1948, [09:21] it talks about 62,000 Arabs who'd lived [09:23] in Haifa, fewer than 6,000 stayed. [09:28] So, almost all of them left, right? 90% [09:30] of them left. [09:31] And the most important factor, this is [09:33] The Economist, not a pro-Israel [09:34] publication, it says, quote, [09:36] "Announcements made over the air by [09:39] higher Arab executive urging the Arabs [09:42] to leave." The Syrian Prime Minister at [09:45] the time, Khaled al-Azm, wrote in his [09:47] memoirs. [09:48] And I want you to hear this. Quote, [09:50] "Since 1948, we have been demanding the [09:53] return of the refugees to their homes, [09:54] but we ourselves are the ones who [09:57] encouraged them to leave." [10:00] End quote. [10:02] There's a refugee quoted in a Jordanian [10:04] newspaper in 1954 [10:06] who said, quote, "The Arab government [10:08] told us, 'Get out so that we can get [10:10] in.' So, we got out, but they did not [10:12] get in." End quote. And here's the one [10:14] that should end up that should end the [10:15] debate every time. [10:17] Mahmoud Abbas, the current president of [10:19] the Palestinian Authority, has [10:21] acknowledged in his own writing that [10:23] Arabs fled places like Safed, which is [10:26] where he's from, [10:27] when the Arab Liberation Army retreated, [10:30] and he's written that the invading Arab [10:32] armies abandoned the Palestinians and [10:34] forced them to leave. He's written that [10:36] himself. [10:38] That's That's the Palestinian Authority [10:39] president who now says that he blames [10:41] the Israelis. He's He's written this. [10:45] That it was it was the Arab armies who [10:46] made them leave. So, when Beinart says [10:48] that there were these acts of mass [10:50] expulsion, what he's actually doing is [10:51] erasing both ends of the real story. A [10:54] war the Arab side started to prevent the [10:56] partition plan, [10:58] and the mass flight of Arabs because [11:01] their own leadership organized it, [11:04] admitted that they did it, encouraged [11:06] it. [11:08] Number three problem here, [11:09] and this is the one almost no one brings [11:10] up, so I want you to remember this one. [11:12] Every war in the 20th century produced [11:15] refugees. Every single one. [11:17] And in every other case, those refugees [11:18] got resettled, and the story ended [11:20] within a couple years, not 80 years, [11:24] but a few years. After World War II, [11:26] there were 12 and a half million Germans [11:27] who were expelled from Poland and [11:29] Czechoslovakia. Stripped of their [11:30] property, no compensation. No one today [11:33] is running a campaign for their [11:34] grandkids to have a right to return to [11:36] those towns. Finland absorbed 400,000 [11:39] refugees from the Soviet Union, 11% of [11:41] their entire population as the side that [11:43] lost the war. [11:45] No international agency built around [11:46] them. Turkey took in 150,000 refugees [11:49] from Bulgaria in 1950. [11:52] There's a great line from a report at [11:54] the time comparing Turkey's refugees to [11:56] the Arab world's refugees. It said the [11:57] difference was entirely in spirit, [12:00] meaning it wasn't about money or [12:01] resources. Turkey decided that they were [12:03] going to take these people in and make [12:04] them part of their nation, and they got [12:06] to work resettling them. The Arab [12:08] states, as we're about to see, made the [12:10] opposite choice. They kept their own [12:12] people stuck in camps for decades as a [12:14] political tool to demonize Israel. [12:18] And then there's the big one. [12:21] The one that really shows you what what [12:23] what a normal war refugee situation is [12:26] supposed to look like, the partition of [12:28] India and Pakistan. [12:30] Which happened in the same era, 1947, [12:32] almost the same time as the state of [12:34] Israel. [12:35] 14 million people were displaced, 14 [12:38] million. [12:40] 8 million Hindus left Pakistan for [12:42] India, 6 million Muslims left India for [12:45] Pakistan. [12:47] And notice what actually happened. [12:48] People moved to go live among their own. [12:50] Hindus went to the Hindu majority state, [12:52] Muslims went to the Muslim majority [12:53] state. That's normal. That's the normal [12:56] human response when countries break up [12:58] and partition. Countries have been [12:59] changing their borders and their [13:00] governments forever. [13:04] You move to where your where your [13:06] national or religious or ethnic people [13:09] are going. You go to where your own [13:11] people are, where you're safe, where you [13:12] belong. No one on either side demanded a [13:15] right of return to the town they grew up [13:16] in on the wrong side of the new border. [13:18] They went and built their lives in a [13:20] state that was now theirs. [13:22] That's exactly what happened with the [13:23] Jews, by the way. [13:27] Jews built a Jewish state, and it's what [13:29] should have happened with the with the [13:30] Palestinian Arabs, too. [13:33] If a Palestinian state had ever been [13:34] allowed to exist alongside Israel, the [13:36] way the UN intended, the way Arab [13:39] countries claim they want, but they [13:41] didn't do anything about it from 1948 to [13:44] 1967. [13:46] Instead, the demand became, "No, no, no, [13:48] no, no. We don't want to go to our own [13:49] state. We want to go to into the Jewish [13:51] state." That's going to come up in this [13:52] conversation in a bit. [13:54] That's not how population exchange ever [13:56] worked anywhere else in the modern era. [14:01] The Palestinian case is the only one [14:03] that's been kept open on purpose. [14:06] UNRWA's own director wrote in 1951 that [14:09] he expected the Arab governments to take [14:12] over the refugee issue, take over the [14:13] relief by mid-1952. There was a $200 [14:16] million fund set up that same year to [14:19] get people homes and jobs, and it sat [14:22] untouched because the Arab states [14:24] refused to resettle these people. Jordan [14:27] was the only Arab country that gave any [14:28] of them citizenship. Syria turned down [14:31] international money specifically [14:33] earmarked to help them resettle [14:35] refugees. Lebanon said flat out there [14:37] was no room. [14:39] And then UNRWA changed its own [14:41] definition of refugee in 1965 and then [14:44] again in 1982 specifically so that [14:46] Palestinian descendants could count as [14:49] refugees forever. No other refugee [14:51] population on the planet works that way. [14:54] Not under the UN's own refugee agency [14:56] standard, not anywhere. This isn't a [14:58] refugee crisis that's lasted 80 years by [15:00] accident. It's been kept alive on [15:02] purpose because certain people have a [15:04] strategic interest in the wound staying [15:07] open. So, now, with those three things [15:09] on the table, let's go back to what [15:10] Beinart [15:11] says. [15:12] Uh [15:15] Let's go see what he says next because [15:17] this just continues the conversation, [15:19] but now you have some more context. [15:22] And so, they believe that they have the [15:24] right to return to the places that their [15:26] families were expelled from, even if the [15:28] even if a Jewish state was created in [15:30] those places. In fact, the there were [15:32] the Palestinians were willing to make [15:34] pretty significant concessions on the [15:36] right of return [15:37] according to a number of the negotiators [15:39] in at Camp David and the negotiations [15:41] after Camp David. But I actually think [15:43] as a matter of principle, there is in [15:46] there is clearly an international law [15:48] the Palestinian right to return and as a [15:50] human level surely you can understand [15:52] why a Palestinian whose family was from [15:54] Jaffa would want to be able to return to [15:56] Jaffa. And the fact that that they were [15:58] ethnically cleansed to create a Jewish [15:59] majority state shouldn't be that [16:01] compelling to them. [16:03] >> So hold on. I want to actually flag and [16:05] be honest about what I have sympathy for [16:07] and what I don't understand. I have what [16:08] I have sympathy for [16:10] is feeling the immense weight of the [16:13] tragedy of your ancestors being driven [16:16] out of a place. [16:17] And feel and that becoming [16:20] the idea of that becoming almost a [16:21] sacred issue to [16:24] remember that suffering and to make sure [16:25] the world remembers it. That I have [16:27] sympathy for. I I don't and can't relate [16:30] to the idea of wanting to live where my [16:32] grandfather lived. [16:34] I I I can So I just want to be clear [16:36] like [16:37] I I I don't totally get that. I don't [16:40] think that's necessarily a default view [16:44] that people around the world have. I [16:46] understand that the Palestinians have it [16:48] and that's part of their their kind of [16:50] civic national culture at this point. [16:53] But I don't think it's default. I don't [16:54] think it should be recognized as a [16:56] universal right. And I'm curious So like [16:59] there's this distinction in the right of [17:00] return between going back to a an an [17:04] Arab Palestinian [17:06] state and going back to the specific [17:08] town that your grandparents lived in. [17:11] Right? And it's not obvious to me that [17:13] supporting the right of return would [17:15] mean the second thing rather than the [17:16] first thing. Like the first thing being [17:18] way more practical. I mean, how specific [17:20] do you get in your support of the right [17:22] return? Is it like obviously like a lot [17:24] of these villages don't exist in the way [17:26] that they did? So, it's like like what [17:28] how specific like what level of [17:30] specificity is required to meet this [17:32] Palestinian demand of the right of [17:34] return? [17:35] >> Well, the UN General UN General Assembly [17:37] 194, which has been reaffirmed like [17:39] hundreds of times, originally passed [17:41] 1948 says I'm going to quote from it [17:43] that Palestinians wishing to return to [17:44] their homes and live at peace with their [17:46] neighbors should be permitted to do so [17:48] at the earliest practical date. Now, [17:50] it's true [17:53] at the earliest practical date. He [17:56] quotes half a sentence like it's a legal [17:57] slam dunk and he says it's been [17:59] reaffirmed numerous times. Okay, here's [18:00] what he leaves out. Talk about this [18:02] resolution 194. [18:05] The very same resolution says that [18:06] compensation should be paid to anyone [18:09] who chooses not to return. [18:13] They don't talk about that one. [18:15] And it tells the Conciliation Commission [18:17] to facilitate repatriation or [18:20] resettlement [18:22] elsewhere or rehabilitation. Three [18:24] options. It's not a mandate to [18:26] repatriate people. [18:29] It's not It has non-binding language. [18:32] Specifically, it says they should They [18:33] should be given the opportunity to do [18:34] this. Okay. [18:36] On top of that, the fact that the [18:38] General Assembly [18:40] I I [18:41] Okay, General Assembly resolutions are [18:43] not legally binding to begin with. It's [18:46] not international He means [18:48] Binar you know, people who aren't [18:49] informed they go, "Oh, there's a UN [18:50] There's a UN General Assembly resolution [18:52] 194. This sounds like it's It's been [18:55] reaffirmed. It sounds like international [18:56] law." That's not the way it works. [19:00] A- A- And here's what really gets me [19:01] about this one. [19:02] The Arab states themselves unanimously [19:06] rejected resolution 194 when when when [19:10] it came up [19:11] in 1949. They only started waving it [19:14] around as an absolute right once it was [19:16] clear that they'd lost. [19:18] But they rejected it. [19:21] Bennard is citing as an ironclad [19:23] international law a General Assembly [19:26] resolution that the people he's speaking [19:28] for [19:29] rejected at the time. Rejected it [19:32] outright. But then when it became [19:34] inconvenient that they rejected it, they [19:35] said, "Okay, okay, okay." And then they [19:36] started using it. [19:41] Okay, [19:42] let's do a little more of this clip. [19:47] Here, let's Brooke, a lot of those homes [19:49] are not there. So, people would have to [19:51] build new housing. I mean, Israel has [19:54] done that before when large numbers of [19:56] people have come. You would build [19:57] housing. So, what So, what's the unit? [19:59] The town? [20:00] Is the town the unit? The The The The [20:03] The places that you should be able to [20:05] You should You should be able to go You [20:07] should You have the choice to go. I'm [20:09] not saying you should have the choice to [20:10] kick someone else out of their home. If [20:12] your family is from Jaffa and that [20:14] particular home is not from Jaffa, I [20:16] think there should be compensation. You [20:17] should be able to have to buy another [20:19] apartment in Jaffa. And [20:23] Okay. [20:25] So, Coleman almost gets there. He asks [20:27] the right question and Bennard's answer, [20:29] yes, the specific town, the specific [20:31] house if it still exists, [20:33] sounds reasonable on the surface until [20:34] you do the math. [20:36] UNRWA says that there are 5.7 million [20:38] Palestinian refugees today. That's [20:40] UNRWA's number. Now, it's It's only a [20:41] few hundred thousand who actually [20:44] left at the time. [20:46] Israel's population, but UNRWA says it's [20:48] 5.7 million. So, I'm sure Bennard would [20:50] say, "Yeah, 5.7 million Palestinian [20:51] refugees." [20:53] All the children and grandchildren and [20:55] great-grandchildren. Israel's population [20:57] is about 9.6 million. Okay, roughly 7 [20:59] million of them are Jewish. So, [21:02] with 5.7 million more people, you don't [21:04] dilute the Jewish population. You [21:06] actually eliminate the Jewish majority [21:08] entirely. [21:10] That's the demand. And here's the thing, [21:12] even the people running the Palestinian [21:13] cause know it. Mahmoud Abbas in cables [21:16] that were later leaked, he didn't know [21:17] this was going to be made public, he [21:18] told his own negotiating team that it [21:21] would be {quote} illogical to ask Israel [21:23] to take in 5 million or indeed 1 [21:25] million, that would mean the end of [21:26] Israel. [21:28] He admitted that. It's He knows it's [21:30] unrealistic. Sari Nusseibeh, who's about [21:33] as serious and moderate a Palestinian [21:35] intellectual as you'll find, if there is [21:36] one, he said the refugees should go to a [21:38] future Palestinian state, not in a way [21:41] that wipes out Israel's Jewish majority, [21:43] because otherwise, there's no such thing [21:44] as a two-state solution. [21:46] It's not a two-state solution if the [21:47] Palestinians are going back to Jaffa. [21:51] It's an erasure of Israel. [21:54] So, don't claim you want a two-state [21:55] solution if that's what you're [21:57] advocating for. So, Beinart presents the [21:59] the town-by-town version like it's the [22:01] careful modest version. Oh, yeah, if [22:02] people want to go back to Jaffa and [22:03] they're from Jaffa, they should be able [22:04] to go back there and get compensation. [22:09] They They know that this would end the [22:11] Jewish state. [22:13] That's what that one's about. [22:15] Let's finish up. [22:15] >> And go to see the sea, which is like [22:17] very important to people from there. [22:20] >> Right. So, you should be able to go back [22:21] to the the specific town even if that [22:24] So, I mean, I I'm I'm thinking of of of [22:27] of Ben-Ami's quote, right? It's like [22:30] >> Which Ben-Ami? [22:31] >> And um Ben-Ami, [22:34] who is among all the Israeli negotiators [22:36] in 2000, certainly not the least [22:39] sympathetic to Palestinian concerns and [22:42] um [22:44] and ultimately, yeah, and and he writes [22:46] in his book [22:48] at a certain point, he was like [22:49] exasperated by the right of return [22:51] conversation because he couldn't [22:53] understand [22:55] what national movement wouldn't be [22:57] premised on an ingathering of its exiles [23:00] into its own state rather than the [23:02] neighboring state that you've been at [23:04] war with, [23:06] and whose people you charge, rightly or [23:08] wrongly, with your oppression for the [23:10] past 80 years. Why wouldn't you want to [23:12] gather your own people to your own state [23:15] if you're a national movement? Why would [23:16] you insist that they go next door to the [23:18] Jewish state? [23:19] >> I mean, I think this is a great a really [23:21] good illustration of why one [23:23] shouldn't only read Israeli accounts of [23:25] this, but also read Palestinian accounts [23:26] as well, because when you read [23:28] Palestinian writing, it becomes super, [23:30] super clear, right? That this territory [23:32] was for them artificially divided and [23:34] created into a Jewish state through an [23:36] act of mass expulsion. They have a deep [23:39] historical connection to particular [23:41] places in this area, which was [23:44] Palestine. And so, to say that that that [23:46] because of that there's going to be this [23:48] new state created in the West Bank and [23:51] Gaza, and they should only feel an [23:52] affinity there. There There, you know, [23:55] there families that can trace back their [23:56] connections in a place like Haifa and [23:58] Jaffa for for for many, many, many, [24:00] many, many generations. And it's [24:01] precious to them. And we Jews, this is [24:04] We Jews should understand that better [24:05] than anybody else, because we've [24:07] maintained that connection for 2,000 [24:09] years. [24:10] >> I I get it. [24:13] Okay. That's the end of the clip. So, he [24:15] brings up this Ben-Ami [24:18] question. This guy, Ben-Ami, [24:19] saying which it's I think it's the best [24:22] moment in the whole clip. Why would any [24:23] national It's a great question. Why [24:25] would any national movement insist that [24:27] its refugees go live in the rival state, [24:29] the one it's been at war with, [24:32] instead of gathering them into its own [24:34] emerging state? [24:37] That's much better. You can build a [24:38] society, you know, [24:40] why do you want to go [24:42] Why would you want Palestinians to go [24:44] live in the Jewish state? Go live in Tel [24:45] Aviv and Jaffa. [24:47] Every national movement in history has [24:49] wanted to gather its people into its own [24:50] state. [24:52] Binur's answer is to turn it into a [24:54] question about feelings. [24:57] Read the Palestinian Understand the [24:59] depth of their connection. Especially we [25:01] Jews should understand what that feels [25:03] like, right? [25:05] And that's [25:05] that's a smart move by Binnart, but it [25:07] doesn't answer the question. It just [25:08] makes the question sound rude to keep [25:10] asking it because how can you deny [25:12] people the that sentiment of going back [25:14] to where they're from? [25:16] The grief about Jaffa is real. No one's [25:17] denying that, but the grief and the [25:19] political demand to end the Jewish state [25:21] through demographics [25:23] is something else entirely. [25:28] And that's what Binnart's doing. He's [25:29] trying to get you to feel bad about even [25:30] asking the question. So, here's where I [25:32] land on this. [25:34] None of this means that the people who [25:35] lost their homes in 1948 didn't lose [25:37] something. [25:38] It happened and some of them are [25:40] probably really upset about it. I get [25:42] that. But Binnart's entire argument [25:44] depends on you not asking [25:46] three questions. [25:49] Is this actually an ancient national [25:50] identity or was it invented for [25:53] political reasons very recently? [25:56] And the answer is of course the second. [25:59] Was this actually an Israeli expulsion [26:01] campaign or a war that the Arab side [26:03] started and then or and then the Arab [26:08] the Arabs who started the war also were [26:10] the ones who told their people to leave [26:12] en masse? [26:13] Okay, that's the second. And the third [26:16] is why is this the only refugee [26:17] population out of dozens in the same [26:19] century that has been kept in limbo for [26:22] 80 years instead of being resettled like [26:24] everyone else in a place where they're [26:26] with people like them? [26:28] Once you ask those three questions, the [26:29] specific claims about uh General [26:32] Assembly Resolution 194 or or or or [26:35] Jaffa or Ben-Ami, [26:38] you don't even need to address those. [26:40] All right, that's the breakdown here. [26:42] Let me know what you think in the [26:43] comments. Please share this one. This is [26:45] exactly the kind of debate where people [26:46] need the fuller picture. [26:48] Um [26:50] yeah. [26:52] Whatever, I think Coleman needs a bit of [26:54] an education on the Middle East. [26:56] Maybe if someone wants to introduce me [26:58] to him, I'll I'll try to start the [26:59] process myself. He's a good man. We like [27:01] Coleman Hughes. All right, God bless. [27:03] Thanks for watching.
