Transcript [00:00] So, let's start right in with what's [00:01] made the [00:03] the headlines on social media over the [00:05] last few months. There have been these [00:06] Catholic [00:08] voices in in media. I wouldn't call them [00:10] theologians, but Catholic media stars [00:13] who have been pretty adamant out there [00:16] saying that Christian Zionism is not a [00:18] Catholic position. And you consider [00:20] yourself a Christian Zionist, a Catholic [00:22] Christian Zionist. So, why don't we just [00:24] dive right in? Can a Catholic be a [00:27] Zionist? [00:29] >> Yeah, great question. And you're right [00:30] that these various Catholic pundits and [00:32] commentators have been keeping me up at [00:34] night in the last uh few months. [00:36] >> Welcome to this episode of Shoulder to [00:38] Shoulder, a podcast where a pastor and a [00:40] rabbi get to the heart of issues that [00:42] matter to people of faith. I'm Pastor [00:44] Doug Reed here with my friend Rabbi [00:45] Pesach Wolicki. And on this episode, [00:47] we'll be having a conversation with Dr. [00:49] Andre Villeneuve of Catholics for [00:52] Israel. Before we jump into our [00:54] conversation, please like our Facebook [00:56] page and join our Facebook group, the [00:57] Shoulder to Shoulder Community, where [00:59] you can interact with Pesach and me all [01:01] week long. The best way to support this [01:03] podcast is to go on over to Patreon, [01:05] subscribe to Shoulder to Shoulder, and [01:07] for just $10 a month, you're helping us [01:09] bring this message of Shoulder to [01:10] Shoulder to more and more people all [01:12] around the world. As a thank you for [01:14] your $10 subscription, you'll get [01:15] exclusive access to chapter-by-chapter [01:18] Bible study beginning in Genesis chapter [01:20] 1 from Rabbi Pesach and myself. So, go [01:23] on over to Patreon, subscribe to [01:24] Shoulder to Shoulder for just $10 a [01:26] month. [01:27] We're grateful for our sponsor Israel [01:29] 365 News, which is the place for you to [01:31] go and get your news and information [01:32] before going to anyone else. Go on over [01:35] to Israel 365news.com [01:37] and be sure to check out some of their [01:39] articles. And most importantly, read [01:42] Rabbi Pesach and my columns. Pesach, [01:44] each and every week, Israel 365 has some [01:47] incredible products and initiatives that [01:49] they're supporting. What are we [01:51] supporting today? [01:53] >> Well, this week we're going to talk [01:54] about Bible Plus. [01:57] Ever wish you could study the Bible with [01:58] a teacher in Israel? Well, now you can. [02:01] There are over 200 courses and and some [02:03] of these courses are mini courses, four [02:05] lessons, five lessons, six lessons that [02:08] are recorded in our studios at Israel [02:10] 365 with top scholars [02:12] in Israel. Some of the courses are [02:14] taught by yours truly. And it is a [02:16] monthly subscription service. You can [02:18] sign up for a month or you can sign up [02:19] for an annual subscription. One month is [02:21] $7 a month. Annual subscription is only [02:24] $60 a year. And you can get a whole [02:27] library of courses for for for Bible [02:31] study and you can ask your questions. [02:32] You can send your questions through and [02:34] the the scholars who taught the courses [02:36] will be sent those questions and will [02:38] respond to you. [02:39] It's a great program. It's a like I [02:41] said, it's a subscription service. [02:43] And you could sign up for that at [02:46] bible-plus.bibledashplus.com. [02:50] So, bibleplus.com. [02:53] Look for that, sign up and you you will [02:55] open up, you'll unlock a whole library, [02:58] a vast library of courses on the Bible. [03:01] I know that we now have courses on every [03:03] single book of the Bible. [03:05] And uh yeah, Bible Plus. [03:08] >> Excellent. Sounds like a tremendous [03:10] resource. Shoulder to Shoulder family, [03:12] make sure you stop by and check that [03:15] out. Well, Pesach, uh you are back in [03:17] Israel. I'm back in Buffalo. Last time [03:20] we did this, uh we were in person for a [03:22] few days. So good to see you. It was [03:24] such an honor to get to have my son uh [03:26] in tow with me and to get to have some [03:29] great conversations and for him to be in [03:31] the room. And I have to tell you a funny [03:33] story from Washington D.C. and then [03:35] we'll talk about the more serious [03:36] elements of how it went. [03:38] So, we were at the uh event there at the [03:42] Capitol. We had done our advocating and [03:45] then they have a reception for us and a [03:47] series of speakers. [03:50] And I had not used the restroom all day [03:52] and I said to Graham, I said listen, I [03:54] said we're going to stay off to the side [03:56] in between speakers Daddy's going to [03:57] have to use the restroom. So we walk [03:59] out, I use the restroom and on my way [04:02] out of the restroom Ambassador Lighter [04:05] was coming in with his security guard [04:06] and into the restroom. So I said hi [04:08] Ambassador, how are you? He said hello, [04:10] went into the restroom. I said to [04:12] Graham, I said we're going to wait right [04:13] here. I want to get a picture of the [04:14] Ambassador. I'm going to say hello when [04:16] he comes out. And so we wait there a [04:18] moment, he comes out and I asked for [04:20] permission to say hello cuz obviously [04:21] he's got a security guard that could [04:23] break me with his pinky if he needed to. [04:25] And so I didn't want to, you know, run [04:27] up and and startle or any of that. I [04:29] made sure I was seen and it was clear [04:31] that I was a friend. And so I I say [04:34] hello, I introduce myself. We have a [04:36] nice exchange for a couple of minutes. I [04:38] expressed that I'm moving to Israel and [04:40] all of that. He He's wow, that's [04:42] amazing. I said could we get a quick [04:44] picture? He said absolutely. And then he [04:46] took a picture with Graham. He said [04:47] could I get a picture with your son? I [04:48] said absolutely. So takes this beautiful [04:50] picture with Graham. [04:52] He walks away and Graham goes, who was [04:55] that? You were really excited to meet [04:56] him. Graham had no idea who he was and [05:00] it was funny because that was most of [05:01] Graham's trip. He had no idea who [05:03] anybody was and he would be like, well [05:05] who is that? Why are they important? And [05:07] we'd have those conversations [05:08] afterwards. But Ambassador Lighter was [05:10] probably my favorite cuz he walked away [05:12] he goes, you were really excited to meet [05:13] him. [05:14] Who was that? [05:17] So that was most of my three days in [05:19] Israel was and DC was explaining to [05:22] Graham who everybody in the pro-Israel [05:24] space was that we were meeting. [05:26] >> Well, and Graham was was keeping himself [05:29] busy running around, taking pictures for [05:31] you and you know, recording things. It [05:34] was great to have [05:36] you know, to have that meal together, to [05:37] go out for dinner with you and Graham [05:39] and and our guest today who's going to [05:41] be joining us [05:42] and you know, to sit and talk to him and [05:44] Graham asked me, you you one of his [05:45] Bible questions. It was really great to [05:47] interact with him. It was great to have [05:48] him there. [05:49] On a more serious note, I mean, this is [05:51] pretty serious, but on a very serious [05:53] note about what took place there, just [05:54] to fill in our listeners, we were at a [05:56] conference. It was the Israel Advocacy [05:58] Day that was put together by the [06:01] the Chris the [06:03] Christian Israel Nexus together with the [06:06] American Christian Leaders for Israel, [06:07] ACLI, which is led by Dr. Susan Michael, [06:10] who's also the president of the [06:11] International Christian Embassy of [06:12] Jerusalem. It was co-sponsored by [06:14] Eagles' Wings and the National Religious [06:16] Broadcasters. And a whole bunch of [06:19] organizations signed on to it and [06:20] participated in it as well. [06:23] And it it brought together over 500 [06:25] pastors and rabbis. I would say probably [06:27] it was probably like 75-80% pastors, but [06:29] there's a whole lot more Christians than [06:30] there are Jews. [06:32] And this was it was very moving for me [06:35] to be there [06:36] to be there at the banquet the first [06:38] night and then the advocacy day. [06:40] And I just want to [06:41] zero in on one particular aspect of it [06:44] that a lot of the participants there did [06:45] not realize was so significant, [06:48] but was huge. In fact, I think historic. [06:52] And that is that two of the [06:53] organizations that were co-sponsors of [06:55] the event and fully participated in it [06:57] with their top leaders [06:59] were the Orthodox Union [07:01] and the Rabbinical Council of America. [07:04] Now, [07:05] our Jewish listeners to this podcast [07:07] already when I just said that, probably [07:10] were like, "Oh." [07:11] Because it's it's massive. It's [07:13] massively significant. Let me explain. [07:15] The Orthodox Union is the establishment [07:20] organization of Orthodox Judaism in [07:23] America. I mean, like, there's no other [07:24] way to say it. Like, when you see that [07:26] that OU on foods that marks it as [07:29] kosher, that's the Orthodox Union. The [07:31] Orthodox Union, but they're much more [07:33] than than certifying the kosher, you [07:35] know, kosher foods. That's just the [07:36] public face of it because that's what's [07:37] in all the all the grocery stores and [07:39] everyone knows them for that. But, they [07:40] are [07:42] they are involved in every aspect of [07:44] Jewish life [07:45] and really that is the Jewish communal [07:48] establishment of the Orthodox Jewish [07:49] community in America. The Rabbinical [07:51] Council of America is a rabbinic [07:52] membership organization, which is [07:54] basically the OU rabbis, so to speak. [07:57] But even though it's a separate [07:58] organization, it's the the establishment [08:01] Orthodox rabbinic organization in [08:03] America. [08:06] And ever since the whole [08:08] Jewish-Christian relations thing became [08:11] a thing over the last few decades, [08:14] people like myself who are involved in [08:17] that space, [08:18] who are publicly involved in that space, [08:20] have been viewed sort of as involved in [08:22] something on the margins, something [08:24] somewhat controversial. [08:26] There are even many Orthodox Union [08:28] affiliated synagogues where I've been [08:30] invited as a speaker, but also asked by [08:32] the rabbi not to talk about the [08:34] Christian stuff because it's just a [08:35] little bit too, you know, volatile a [08:37] topic. [08:40] I should also add I generally refuse to [08:41] speak if I can't talk about that because [08:43] like [08:43] that's what I want to talk about. I'm [08:45] not interested in just getting up there [08:46] and talking about, you know, [08:48] you know, anything else when I'm talking [08:49] to the Jewish community cuz I I [08:51] I believe that they need to hear this. [08:53] But I've been living on the margins, you [08:55] know, I've been oh, you're involved in [08:56] that stuff. [08:58] And to see the Orthodox Union leadership [09:02] and the Rabbinical Council of America [09:03] leadership and I saw I saw the leader of [09:05] the Rabbinical Council of America there, [09:07] Rabbi Mark Penner. He's an old friend of [09:08] mine. [09:09] And it was nice to see him and I said [09:10] hello and I said, "Wow, you know, you're [09:12] here." And he said, "Yeah, it wasn't so [09:14] simple." You know, and it was great to [09:16] see him and I understand it wasn't so [09:17] simple. This is a big step for the [09:19] mainstream Orthodox leadership to be [09:22] involved in co-sponsorship, [09:24] to see their name co-sponsoring an event [09:27] together with the with the NRB, you [09:29] know, together with [09:31] you know, with Eagles' Wings, together [09:32] with Christian organizations, the [09:34] International Christian Embassy of [09:35] Jerusalem. That they were together with [09:37] that it it marks a uh [09:40] a change in how Jewish-Christian [09:42] relations is being related to by the [09:44] Orthodox community and I welcome it. And [09:47] as I said from the stage when I spoke at [09:49] this at the conference cuz you know [09:51] after the lobby day there was then kind [09:53] of education day [09:55] where there was a number of Christian [09:56] theologians who spoke and I spoke. [09:59] And I shared this at the time that if it [10:01] becomes so mainstream that people like [10:03] me aren't special anymore and we become [10:05] kind of marginalized, I'm totally fine [10:07] with that. It's worth it. I mean this is [10:08] what we've been fighting for all these [10:10] years is to is to make the is to make [10:12] these relationships more mainstream, to [10:13] have the our community, the Orthodox [10:16] Jewish community be less afraid of that [10:18] cooperation and really see Christian [10:20] supporters of Israel as the real friends [10:22] and allies that they are. So it it [10:25] almost brought tears to my eyes. I was [10:26] very emotional about specifically that [10:29] at the event and I just wanted to make [10:31] sure that I I put that on the record for [10:32] the Shoulder to Shoulder listeners that [10:34] this was some big moment for [10:36] Jewish-Christian relations. [10:38] >> Well, and please help some of our [10:39] listeners understand. You had explained [10:41] it obviously in length in your talk and [10:45] then we discussed it at the table and I [10:47] was with you when you when we spoke with [10:49] Rabbi Penner. [10:51] What's this Why is it so significant? I [10:53] get that the establishment, but why was [10:55] it so difficult? Why wasn't it so simple [10:57] for them to be involved? Give us the the [10:59] synopsis so that our Christian listeners [11:01] get why this is such a big deal that [11:03] they came to the table. [11:03] >> Listen, there's a [11:06] for the same reason that that this work [11:07] is viewed as controversial the [11:12] the general sense [11:15] especially in Orthodox Jewish circles of [11:16] Christianity is that Christianity is [11:19] hostile. [11:21] Not necessarily openly hostile in the [11:23] you know in an aggressive way, but they [11:25] want to convert us. They are they have [11:28] an agenda. [11:30] There There's also There's So there's [11:32] the fear of proselytization. [11:34] There's just the fear of crossing a [11:36] boundary into [11:38] relationship with what has been viewed [11:40] for centuries [11:42] as an adversarial [11:44] religion as an adversarial faith. I I [11:46] I'm it's hard for me to express it [11:49] you know what exactly bothers them about [11:51] it. Um [11:53] because I've been fighting I mean I've [11:55] been fighting against it a long time. [11:57] And and to me it doesn't make a whole [11:59] lot of sense but it just to give it you [12:01] know to give it some contours. [12:03] Yeah, there's a sense that Christianity [12:05] is [12:06] is um [12:09] is not our friend. [12:10] That's the way I guess that's the best [12:12] way to put it. A lot of Jews are very [12:13] uncomfortable with Jewish Christian [12:15] relations because of the history of [12:17] persecution by Christians because of the [12:19] because of the knowledge that [12:21] Evangelical Christians want want Jews to [12:23] accept Jesus. [12:25] Um even though [12:27] they're pretty unsuccessful when it [12:29] comes to Orthodox Jews. There are [12:31] very very very rarely someone who's an [12:34] Orthodox Jew becomes a Christian but [12:36] it's it's so rare to the point that you [12:38] can you can consider it [12:41] not that likely that it would happen [12:43] especially in the context of working [12:45] with Christian Zionists and they don't [12:46] necessarily know that because [12:48] so much but yeah, there's this there's [12:51] this general discomfort with [12:53] Christianity. [12:54] So [12:56] it's just huge. It's huge. I mean this [12:58] look that there's also in the Orthodox [12:59] community there's a lot of resonance [13:01] with the fact that Maimonides who is [13:04] like the theologian [13:07] considers Christianity to be idolatrous [13:09] because of the Trinity because of the [13:11] compromise on the oneness of God. [13:13] And that is so well known that one-liner [13:16] is so well known by Orthodox Jews. Every [13:18] Orthodox Jew if they they don't know [13:19] anything about Christianity they don't [13:20] even know anything about what Maimonides [13:22] said about Christianity beyond that one [13:24] line even though he said many [13:25] complicated things. He also said that [13:27] they don't know that he also wrote that [13:29] Christianity is paving the path is [13:31] paving the path for the coming of the [13:33] Messiah and for all people in the world [13:35] to serve God together. And that's a [13:36] quote, by the way. That's not even a [13:38] paraphrase. [13:40] From Maimonides. He also wrote that it's [13:42] perfectly fine and it's a [13:44] to teach Torah to Christians [13:47] because they share our belief in the [13:48] divinity of scripture. He also wrote [13:50] that, but they don't know that either. [13:51] They don't know these things. They just [13:53] know that one-liner that Christianity is [13:55] idolatrous. [13:56] Which is [13:58] you know, really a a theological [14:00] technical point about the fact that from [14:02] Maimonides' perspective in terms of how [14:05] he understands the importance and and [14:07] the nature of the oneness of God that [14:09] that divides God in a way that renders [14:12] it idolatrous. That's just his [14:14] theological position on that point on [14:16] the Godhead. But the positive things he [14:18] wrote about Christianity, most Jews are [14:20] completely unaware of. So, there's a lot [14:21] of I wouldn't call it disinformation. [14:24] There's just an ignorance of the reality [14:26] of what Christianity actually is and [14:28] what Christian friends of Israel [14:29] actually are that makes a lot of Jews [14:31] scared. That's really all it is. [14:33] And the Orthodox Union sees itself and [14:36] the Rabbinical Council of America as [14:38] they've always seen themselves that [14:39] their job is to keep Jews strong in [14:42] their in their Judaism and to strengthen [14:44] our communities. And getting involved in [14:45] interfaith work is just [14:47] it's it it's not even a [14:50] it's a distraction they don't want to [14:51] get involved in. [14:54] But uh yes, so to see them there was [14:56] big. To see them there was really big [14:57] and that's a credit to Bishop Robert [14:59] Stearns. Only he could pull off [15:00] relationships like that. [15:02] >> Yeah, it was absolutely amazing. I met [15:03] several rabbis uh that were new to me [15:05] and I saw a lot of old friends as well. [15:07] It was really [15:08] uh a great gala, a great advocacy day, [15:11] and wonderful time of education. And I [15:14] would say during the education, [15:16] one of the things that was very unique [15:17] for all the evangelicals in the room is [15:20] that we had a Catholic theologian in the [15:23] room and that was [15:24] fascinating. There were so many nuggets. [15:27] I felt like that talk alone on the [15:29] education day was so much new [15:32] information for me personally. I live in [15:35] the pro-Israel evangelical space. I know [15:38] the the scripture verses that go along, [15:40] but learning some of the church [15:42] traditions and church fathers positions [15:45] of the Popes. All of that albeit through [15:49] a firehose [15:51] Andre said three, you know, he was [15:52] giving a lot of information. I was [15:54] absorbing that and going I don't know [15:56] anything about this world and so we said [15:59] we have to have you on the podcast. So [16:01] Payseur, why don't you introduce our [16:03] guest Catholic theologian Catholics for [16:05] Israel [16:07] Dr. Andre Villeneuve? [16:10] >> Absolutely. Dr. Andre Villeneuve [16:13] is a Catholic theologian, biblical [16:14] scholar and associate professor of Old [16:16] Testament and biblical languages at [16:18] Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, [16:21] Michigan. He previously taught theology [16:23] and scripture at St. John Vianney [16:25] Seminary in Denver, Colorado and [16:27] Franciscan University of Steubenville in [16:30] Ohio and the Great Books in the Honors [16:33] College at Azusa Pacific University out [16:36] in California. So he's held a number of [16:38] academic positions and then there's a [16:39] whole story in his bio here which you [16:43] know, maybe we'll get into when we talk [16:45] to him, but yeah, welcome to the podcast [16:47] Andre Villeneuve. [16:49] >> Thanks very much for having me. Good to [16:50] see you guys. [16:53] >> So Andre [16:54] if we can call you Andre. [16:56] So Andre, it was great to see you at [16:58] this conference with all these [16:59] evangelicals and your talk there was [17:01] really about the the Catholic Church's [17:04] position on Zionism. So let's start [17:06] right in with what's made the [17:09] the headlines on social media over the [17:10] last few months. There have been these [17:12] Catholic [17:13] voices in in media. I wouldn't call them [17:16] theologians, but Catholic media stars [17:18] who have been pretty adamant out there [17:21] saying that Christian Zionism is not a [17:24] Catholic position. We also had a letter [17:25] written by various church leaders in [17:28] Israel a few months ago who called it a [17:31] who disparaged Christian Zionism. They [17:33] called it a damaging ideology. [17:36] And you consider yourself a Christian [17:38] Zionist, a Catholic Christian Zionist. [17:40] So, why don't we just dive right in? Can [17:43] a Catholic be a Zionist? [17:46] >> Yeah, great question. And you're right [17:47] that these various Catholic pundits and [17:49] commentators have been keeping me up at [17:51] night in the last few months. [17:54] It's been very annoying, but it's been [17:57] also keeping me keeping me quite busy. [18:00] So, yes, a Catholic can absolutely be a [18:02] Zionist. And something that I say at [18:04] events like that, which was also unique [18:06] for me. It was great to meet you guys [18:08] there and to be in the company of mostly [18:10] evangelicals and many Jews, but few [18:12] Catholics. And that tends to be often [18:15] the default position. It's like a [18:18] Zionism or Christian Zionism is [18:19] dismissed as an evangelical movement, as [18:22] a dispensationalist [18:24] idea that just arose in 19th century, [18:27] right? That was unheard of previously. [18:30] But [18:32] something that people tend to forget is [18:33] that Catholics believe in the Bible, [18:35] too. It's supposed to be our [18:37] foundational text. And sometimes we kind [18:40] of think that, oh yeah, Catholics follow [18:42] their tradition and their popes, but [18:45] they they they kind of believe in the [18:47] Bible, but you know, half ways. And [18:50] certainly the Old Testament is fulfilled [18:53] in the new. And unfortunately, fulfilled [18:55] is often used as a euphemism for [18:58] dissolved. You know, everyone knows [19:00] Matthew 5:17, do not think I have come [19:02] to abolish the Torah and the prophets. [19:04] I've not come to abolish, but to [19:06] fulfill. [19:07] And so, everyone gives lip service to [19:08] that passage from the Sermon on the [19:11] Mount. but how do you interpret fulfill? [19:14] And unfortunately, many, not just [19:16] Catholics, also many Protestants do [19:18] understand that as a type of dissolution [19:21] of the the prophecies to Israel. So, as [19:24] you saw in my my fire hose speech there [19:28] in in DC, I went through this rapid-fire [19:32] overview of beginning with the biblical [19:35] data and showing that the presence of [19:38] Zion through scripture is undeniable, [19:42] 177 times in both the Old and New [19:45] Testament. I went really quickly over [19:47] the the hundreds of prophecies [19:50] anticipating Israel's return to Zion. [19:53] And as many mentioned at the conference, [19:56] ultimately, it's about the faithfulness [19:57] of God, the fidelity of God who chooses [19:59] a people, who makes promises to these [20:01] people, and is remains faithful to his [20:05] people and even though from a Christian [20:07] perspective, we understand the covenant [20:10] to be expanded by the the new covenant [20:12] that Jesus established, and the [20:14] Gentiles, to use Paul's language, are [20:16] grafted into the covenant of Israel. [20:19] It's not an abolition, it's not a a [20:21] dissolution, it's not an erasure of [20:24] Israel's unique calling. [20:27] Now, as I also said at the conference, [20:28] the challenge for Catholics is that we [20:30] do have much more baggage of tradition, [20:33] and much of it has been negative. So, [20:35] when we turn to those various pundits in [20:37] the past few months, we can [20:40] to just mention a few names, we have [20:41] Kerry Perzan Bowler, we have [20:43] otherwise well-thought-out [20:46] commentators such as Michael Knowles and [20:49] Matt Fradd from The Daily Wire. And then [20:51] you mentioned also this declaration from [20:53] the the patriarchs in Jerusalem. They [20:55] tend to just default to this position [20:57] that, "Oh, yeah, Catholics don't believe [20:59] that." They tend to invariably ignore [21:02] the biblical data. They reinterpret a [21:04] couple of New Testament passages in a [21:06] way that is tendentious and then they [21:09] jump right to [21:11] the well acknowledged position of most [21:13] of the church fathers. Though, as I said [21:15] in my in my talk, there's also a [21:17] minority position of the church fathers [21:20] who believed that Israel would return to [21:22] their land [21:23] in the last days. And I also talked [21:26] about the magisterium's position. So, [21:27] when we talk about the magisterium, this [21:29] is the official position of the church [21:31] as communicated or conveyed through [21:33] church councils and popes. So, when we [21:35] look at the modern magisterium since [21:37] especially the Second Vatican II, Nostra [21:40] Aetate, we see a complete turnaround of [21:42] the church from a traditionally negative [21:45] or even hostile position towards Judaism [21:48] seen as the arch rival, right, of [21:50] Christianity in terms of truth. And we [21:52] see partly driven by um [21:56] an examination of conscience after the [21:58] Shoah to say, "Wow, we've been at least [22:01] partly responsible for what happened to [22:02] the Jewish people in the Second World [22:04] War because of allowing these [22:06] anti-Jewish attitudes to to to prevail." [22:09] Attitudes that were precisely that, they [22:11] were attitudes, right? They were not [22:12] official magisterial teachings of the [22:15] church. But, with the Second Vatican [22:17] Council and the declaration Nostra [22:19] Aetate, we see the beginning of an [22:21] actual theology of Israel in the [22:22] Catholic Church. Beginning with what I [22:25] think all of us hold as obvious today, [22:27] anti-Semitism is always unacceptable. [22:30] Uh the Jews should not be held [22:32] responsible for having killed Christ, [22:34] this old accusation of deicide. But, [22:37] also returning to St. Paul in Romans 9 [22:39] to 11 saying that God's gifts and [22:41] calling to the Jewish people are [22:42] irrevocable. [22:44] And then there's a whole string of [22:46] documents that followed it since 1965 [22:48] until today that continue to develop [22:51] this positive theology of Israel. And [22:54] where the church has basically uh [22:57] held short of coming to is an actual [22:59] explicit endorsement of Zionism because [23:01] we know it's a very thorny issue, right? [23:03] We have many Christians in the Middle [23:05] East. We have the strong Muslim presence [23:07] who are not exactly Zionists. And so, [23:09] the church has been very prudent before [23:11] endorsing saying, "Okay, the formation [23:14] of the state Israel Israel is is a um [23:17] fulfillment of of theology." But, we see [23:19] the direction. We see the traject- [23:21] trajectory becoming more and more [23:23] positive. And bottom line, if we agree [23:26] with St. Paul who says God's gifts and [23:28] calling to Israel are irrevocable, well, [23:31] my point is that what is the number one [23:33] gift that God makes to the people of [23:35] Israel in the Tanakh, in the Hebrew [23:37] Bible? Well, it's the land of Israel. [23:39] And so, I think Catholics should take [23:41] that seriously. [23:44] >> Andre, it was fascinating listening to [23:46] your talk. Uh help some of our [23:48] Evangelical listeners who don't have a [23:50] context for or they they look at [23:53] Catholics as being bound to tradition or [23:56] to the Popes. And well, the Pope said [23:58] this or the Pope said that and we we [24:00] have to deal with this. And so, the [24:01] Catholics are just going to believe what [24:03] the Pope said. But, I thought you did a [24:05] wonderful job in your talk expressing [24:08] the fact that scripture is the basis for [24:11] everything in the church and those other [24:13] things follow that and should not [24:15] contradict that. Can you help our [24:17] Evangelical listeners understand your [24:19] framework and why it matters with [24:21] Israel? [24:22] >> Yeah, that's absolutely foundational. [24:24] So, [24:25] as I said in DC, the Evangelical view is [24:28] that God speaks through his word and the [24:29] word of God is just the sola scriptura, [24:32] right? Martin Luther's essential creed, [24:35] the Bible alone, no tradition. [24:37] And um the Catholic view is more complex [24:40] because we have this tripartite [24:43] source of revelation. When you talk [24:45] about this, you have to really weigh [24:46] your words and everything you say. But, [24:48] uh the Catholic view of revelation is [24:50] that it's threefold. So, scripture, [24:53] tradition, and the magisterium. So, the [24:55] Bible, the tradition as communicated by [24:58] anyone starting with the early church [25:00] with the Acts of the Apostles and the [25:02] church fathers through the scholastic [25:04] medieval theologians to theologians [25:06] today, right? And then the magisterium [25:08] as I said, which is the teachings of the [25:10] councils and the Popes. But, [25:13] even though we be be be believe that [25:16] similar to Judaism by the way, right? [25:18] Cuz traditional Judaism does not believe [25:20] in sola scriptura, but they believe in [25:23] Torah she bikhtav and Torah she ba'al [25:25] peh, right? So, the [25:26] the written Torah and the oral Torah. [25:29] So, [25:30] so in a similar way, we still give [25:34] priority to scripture. We should [25:36] Catholics should give priority to [25:37] scripture and there I quoted from the [25:39] dogmatic constitution on divine [25:41] revelation Dei Verbum, which is also [25:43] from the Second Vatican Council. And [25:45] this document on how Catholics should [25:47] approach divine revelation says that [25:50] sacred scripture is the inspired word of [25:52] God. It teaches firmly, faithfully, and [25:54] without error that which God wanted to [25:56] communicate to us for the sake of our [25:58] salvation. Both Old Testament and New [26:00] Testament are the speech of God put down [26:03] in writing and sacred scripture should [26:05] be the soul of sacred theology. So, it [26:08] doesn't say the teachings of the Popes [26:10] should be the soul of theology or [26:12] tradition should be the soul of [26:14] theology. Does say that scripture, the [26:16] speech of God, should be the foundation [26:19] for all Catholic theology. So, that's a [26:21] really important point. It's true that [26:23] we do pay attention to what the Popes [26:24] say and to what we see in tradition, but [26:27] if there's to be a certain primacy, then [26:29] it should be scripture. And in fact, [26:31] every time you see the major theologians [26:33] in the church, they're always profoundly [26:35] biblical theologians. [26:37] More than our modern-day pundits who [26:41] tend to cling to various medieval [26:43] decrees more than scripture and that is [26:46] the problem with Catholic anti-Zionism [26:48] today. If you look at any of these [26:49] articles or videos, you're going to see [26:51] they're almost always going to ignore [26:53] most of the Old Testament. They're going [26:55] to cherry-pick a couple of New Testament [26:56] verses and then they're going to jump to [26:58] medieval councils or um [27:00] um or various opinions of uh of the [27:04] fathers. [27:05] Something else I mentioned at my talk is [27:08] that not all tradition is created equal. [27:10] And so in Catholic tradition, we have [27:12] what we call authoritative tradition, [27:14] you might say with a a uppercase or or [27:16] capital T, and then we have lowercase [27:19] traditions. [27:20] Now, much of the anti-Jewish tradition [27:23] in Catholic tradition, of which [27:24] undeniably there's a lot of it, would [27:27] fall under lowercase T, meaning their [27:30] customs, their attitudes that the church [27:33] has repudiated since the Second Vatican [27:35] Council. And so they bear absolutely no [27:38] authority at all. And similarly with the [27:41] Magisterium, some people think that [27:43] whatever the Pope says is the word of [27:45] God. That is absolutely not true. So [27:47] you're going to see a lot of memes [27:49] online by the anti-Zionists and [27:51] supersessionists of Pope Pius X [27:54] who famously or infamously met with [27:56] Herzl in 1904. And then as recorded in [27:59] Herzl's diaries, he said "Non possumus" [28:02] in Latin, "We are unable to support the [28:04] Zionist movement. The Jews have not [28:06] recognized Christ and therefore we [28:07] cannot recognize the Jewish people." [28:09] Well, how much authority does that bear? [28:12] Absolutely zero because it was a private [28:15] conversation between the Pope and Herzl [28:17] as reported in Herzl's own diaries. [28:20] So sometimes when I see supersessionists [28:22] quote this, tongue-in-cheek I say, [28:24] "Well, what's your Magisterium? Is it [28:25] Theodor Herzl?" Because you're actually [28:27] quoting Herzl's diary here. You're not [28:29] quoting a church document. [28:31] Right? So [28:33] the point is to say that not everything [28:35] in Catholic tradition bears equal [28:36] weight. And even when we talk about [28:38] tradition, the definition of tradition [28:40] with a capital T [28:42] is that what was that which was taught [28:44] by Christ and the apostles. [28:47] Tradition is the same [28:49] same root as to transmit. So, transmit [28:52] to to tradition is not something a pope [28:54] gets up in the morning or St. John [28:57] Chrysostom gets up in the morning and [28:58] just says something and that becomes [29:00] tradition. Right? Tradition needs to [29:02] transmit what we find in scripture, both [29:04] Old and New Testament, and pass it on [29:07] faithfully. The same root as to [29:09] translate, right? When you translate, [29:11] you don't make stuff up. You want to [29:13] convey accurately what you have [29:16] received. So, that is the point of [29:18] tradition. It's to remain faithful to [29:20] the sources, to what God says in his [29:22] word, of which the primary source that [29:25] that that the soul of sacred theology [29:27] should be the entirety of sacred [29:29] scripture. Does that answer your [29:30] question? [29:31] >> No. [29:32] >> Yes. [29:33] You know, it's not often I get a chance [29:34] to talk to a Catholic theologian on this [29:36] on this program. We Usually the [29:38] Christians we talk to are from the [29:39] evangelical camp. [29:40] Um [29:42] although there are evangelical Catholics [29:43] as well. That's a other topic. But what [29:46] I [29:46] what I want to ask you like you just [29:48] brought up the Pope and you say, "Well, [29:49] what the Pope says in a private [29:50] conversation doesn't really have [29:51] authority. It's not the same as official [29:53] official church documents." But at the [29:55] same time, [29:56] you're Catholic and you have the Pope [29:58] and the Pope is the Pope. [30:01] So, when you have [30:03] you know, how do you balance [30:06] fealty to the Pope [30:08] again, whose infallibility is admittedly [30:11] limited to matters of faith and morals, [30:14] but his authority it in general is far [30:17] greater than just [30:19] than just what's written in the [30:20] magisterium and and and those things. [30:23] And and you have [30:25] and you have the last look you have [30:26] Benedict and John Paul II who were both [30:30] uh [30:31] I would say very pro-Jewish Christian [30:34] relations. [30:35] Uh and I I wrote an article about [30:36] Benedict shortly after he passed uh [30:38] where I I shared the advances that he [30:41] made in Jewish Christian relations. He [30:42] talked about the covenantal relationship [30:44] of the Jews uh and as did John Paul II [30:47] repeatedly. But then you have the But [30:49] then you have the last two Popes, the [30:50] current one and and Pope uh [30:53] and Pope Francis [30:54] who I I mean this Pope hasn't said much [30:56] about Israel. What he said has not been [30:58] good. [31:00] And then you have the And then you have [31:02] Pope Francis who was out and out [31:04] anti-Israel [31:05] politically. So, how do you as a [31:07] Catholic [31:09] balance that with [31:11] reverence for the Pope that you're [31:13] supposed to have as a Catholic? How do [31:15] you [31:16] I'm asking you just in terms of your own [31:17] life of faith as a Catholic and this is [31:19] your Pope, how do you how do you sort [31:21] that out? [31:22] >> Yeah, that's a really great question and [31:23] you're right that as Catholics um [31:26] you know, I'm a conservative Catholic [31:27] and of course you can be a rogue [31:29] Catholic and just completely dismiss the [31:30] Pope which some do, but as conservative [31:33] Catholics again similar to Orthodox [31:35] Jews, you don't don't want to you can't [31:36] just dismiss what the Pope says [31:38] entirely. So, you have to take him him [31:40] seriously, respectfully, [31:43] um but you can disagree with the Pope [31:45] and that's something that Catholics have [31:47] always done. We know respectfully that [31:50] we have had some great Popes in history [31:52] and we've had some Popes that have been [31:54] not so great, right? The Pope as you [31:57] yourself understands is considered [31:59] infallible by Catholics in matters of [32:01] faith and morals. Um but when we talk [32:04] about Vatican diplomacy, that does not [32:07] fall within the deposit of faith. And so [32:10] it's [32:11] it's absolutely possible to respectfully [32:14] disagree with the Pope says and uh [32:16] especially in matters of of the Middle [32:19] East, right? When you're talking about [32:21] the Vatican Secretariat of State and how [32:23] they deal with the conflict [32:25] um they come from a very different [32:28] perspective than ours when we're looking [32:30] at the the Holy See, the Vatican, the [32:32] different dicasteries in the Vatican. [32:35] You know, most Catholics in the Holy [32:37] Land are Palestinian Arabs or Israeli [32:40] Catholic. [32:41] They don't like to call themselves [32:43] themselves Arabs anymore. It's many call [32:44] themselves Aramean Christians. And so, [32:47] they have some some concerns that are [32:49] very different from that of supporting [32:51] Zionism. We know that the church in Gaza [32:54] have has suffered terribly in the past 2 [32:56] years. So, when we're looking at, for [32:58] example, the patriarch [33:00] Pierbattista Pizzaballa, whom I know [33:03] personally, you know, he's got some [33:05] serious concerns about his flocks. There [33:07] are concerns about [33:09] what settlers have been doing in the [33:11] West Bank, or at least reports coming [33:13] out, that's what we're constantly [33:15] hearing. Whether true or not, that's [33:17] something I think Israel needs to do [33:19] better at explaining what's going on. We [33:21] have the constant reports of um [33:24] in Lebanon that soldier is smashing a [33:26] statue of Jesus. And to their credit, [33:28] Israel reacted well to that and kind of [33:30] repairing the harm done. But, what we [33:33] see constantly from the West are uh at [33:36] least accusations that Israel is doing [33:38] things that are not friendly to [33:40] Christians, right? All the episodes of [33:42] spitting and so on. So, [33:44] everyone can recognize that this has [33:46] nothing to do with the magisterium, with [33:48] faith, but slowly that shapes a certain [33:51] perception of Israel, that the [33:54] Christians are under threat, that they [33:56] are persecuted, that they are not [33:58] appreciated. And so, that's going to [34:01] shape certain views of what the [34:04] hierarchy in Rome is going to have in [34:06] the end. It's going to shape, you know, [34:08] some some of the Vatican diplomacy or [34:11] policy. So, you can absolutely disagree [34:13] with it, and I think the Catholic media [34:16] has not been doing a good job at all in [34:18] reporting what's going on in Israel, [34:20] because as every media, they focus on [34:22] the negative, right? They focus on some [34:23] incident that happens, and there it is. [34:25] We report on the soldier who smashed [34:27] that Jesus statue. [34:29] And then you have another one, then [34:30] another one, then the patriarch can't [34:32] get into the Holy Sepulchre on Palm [34:34] Sunday. Again, Israel is restricting the [34:37] Christian freedom of worship. So, when [34:39] you have one incident after another, it [34:41] creates a certain picture. So, I kind of [34:43] drifted from your question about the [34:44] Pope to a general Catholic perception of [34:47] what's going on in Israel, but I think [34:48] the two are related. Did I answer your [34:50] question? [34:52] >> Yeah, yeah, sure. [34:54] So, Dr. Villanueva, I I have to know, [34:58] your desire is to move Catholics [35:01] closer to a biblical position on Israel. [35:05] You are in that space theologically. [35:08] What does that look like? What's the [35:10] landscape? Do 10% of Catholics see [35:13] Israel in a positive light? Do 50%? [35:16] I don't even know. I know we're [35:17] constantly looking at polls and [35:19] wondering [35:20] amongst evangelicals and amongst, [35:23] you know, Western Americans, what what [35:26] does that look like for support for [35:28] Israel? What does that look like in the [35:30] Catholic landscape? And what are you [35:32] doing to help bring them closer to a [35:34] biblical position on Israel? [35:36] >> Yeah, yeah, wow, what a great question. [35:38] The short answer is that I don't know. I [35:40] can't give you numbers. Um [35:45] That's a really good question because a [35:46] lot more Catholics support Israel than [35:48] we think, at least in America. Many of [35:51] them will support Israel for political [35:54] or moral reasons or [35:57] reasons of traditional alliance. And [35:59] some may have a type of instinct that, [36:01] of course, there's a biblical connection [36:03] and a theological connection between the [36:05] Jewish people and Catholics. [36:07] Like I said, I think also there's a type [36:08] of blind spot or a myopia. [36:11] Many Catholics don't think about this or [36:14] they've just been programmed like we saw [36:16] recently with Michael Knowles, who in in [36:19] many respects I I very much respect him, [36:22] but he just switched to the default [36:23] position after the declaration of the [36:26] patriarchs and just said, "Yeah, that's [36:27] what Catholics have always believed." [36:29] So, there seems to be a shutdown of of [36:31] thought even among thoughtful Catholic [36:33] pundits. So, how many support Israel? I [36:36] really don't know and I think it varies [36:37] greatly [36:39] between nations. So, I would say that in [36:42] Europe the numbers are probably pretty [36:44] low. In Africa, they're probably much [36:46] higher. In America, they're probably [36:49] balanced because of America's [36:51] traditional [36:53] support of Israel. But again, that's not [36:55] necessarily theological support. [36:58] So, what we're doing Well, I started [37:00] Catholics for Israel actually sometime [37:02] ago. It was in 2007 [37:04] as a young Catholic revert to to the [37:08] Catholic faith after spending 7 years as [37:11] an Evangelical and precisely out of [37:14] these frustrations of of observing what [37:16] the church teaches officially about the [37:18] Jewish people and how [37:21] something didn't add up. If the church [37:23] can continually affirms that God's gifts [37:25] and calling to the Jewish people are [37:26] irrevocable, then why isn't there more [37:29] appreciation or openness to the mystery [37:32] of Israel and the return of the Jewish [37:34] people back to the land of of Israel? [37:37] So, that's why I started Catholics for [37:39] Israel in 2007. I was quite active on it [37:42] in the beginning, then I moved to the US [37:43] and it kind of fell on the back burner [37:45] for a few years and then with October [37:47] 7th when the whole world went crazier [37:51] became crazier, [37:52] I was felt very convicted that we need [37:54] to do more about this and so I started [37:58] or continued writing [38:00] articles, developing a theological [38:02] foundation for support for Israel, which [38:06] is of course connected with friendship [38:07] with the Jewish people. [38:09] Um recording videos and and podcasts and [38:12] also gathering like-minded people. So, [38:15] other theologians and gathering [38:17] contributions from not just Catholics, [38:20] but others Protestants, Orthodox Jews, [38:22] and so on. And recently we started an [38:26] initiative called Catholic Voices for [38:28] Israel, myself and Father Antoine Levy, [38:30] who is a Dominican priest in Jerusalem. [38:33] So, we want to [38:35] counter this narrative not only [38:36] theologically but by means of numbers to [38:38] say that actually we have we want to [38:40] have a lot of signatories to this first [38:43] public statement that we make saying [38:45] Carrie Prejean Bourassa does not speak [38:47] for Catholics. Catholics for Catholics, [38:49] this organization that also [38:52] recently stated that [38:54] the [38:55] the state of Israel has nothing to do [38:57] with Catholic theology. They don't speak [38:58] for Catholics because the truth is the [39:01] magisterium does not have an official [39:03] position on Zionism. There's prudential [39:06] statements [39:08] we can't adopt the wholesale that the [39:10] Jewish view of the state of Israel. Um [39:14] So, we wanted to to develop that [39:16] thought, move the needle by being an [39:19] actual presence by having solid [39:20] theological arguments, but also by [39:22] gathering support and showing that hey, [39:25] there are many of us who believe in [39:28] God's promises and that God is faithful [39:29] to his people because ultimately to [39:31] conclude the answer to that question, [39:34] I think it's not necessarily just about [39:36] Israel. I think it's about belief in the [39:38] word of God. It's about God's [39:39] faithfulness and it's about [39:42] being good custodians to go back to this [39:44] idea of tradition of passing down what [39:46] we've received [39:48] to be witnesses to God's presence, to [39:50] God's goodness, to God's love to his [39:52] people in the world because [39:55] the love for Israel, the famous [39:58] Abrahamic blessing that has been so [40:00] controversial in the past few months, [40:02] right? Those who bless [40:04] Those who those who bless you will be [40:05] blessed, those who curse you will be [40:06] cursed. Promises made to Abraham, [40:08] repeated to Jacob, that we find really [40:11] throughout the Bible. [40:13] Ultimately, Zionism is a good force for [40:16] the world and to see God's promises come [40:19] to pass is something that is a source of [40:21] blessing and goodness for all peoples [40:23] and not for just for the Jewish people, [40:25] including for the church. So, I think [40:27] for the church to be healthy, we have to [40:28] be faithful to God's revelation. [40:32] >> Yeah, Andre, I just want to share [40:34] that, you know, with our listeners that [40:36] there's actually a document that was put [40:37] out by the Vatican in 2015 called [40:41] the gifts and calling [40:44] are irrevocable, meaning named after [40:46] that verse in Romans about the Jews on [40:48] the 50th anniversary of Vatican II. And [40:51] there's a passage in there that I just [40:53] want to read here. [40:54] It says, "That the Jews are participants [40:56] in God's salvation is theologically [40:59] unquestionable. But how that can be [41:01] possible without confessing Christ [41:03] explicitly is and remains an [41:06] unfathomable divine mystery. [41:08] It is therefore no accident that Paul's [41:11] soteriological reflections in Romans 9 [41:13] to 11 on the irrevocable redemption of [41:16] Israel against the background of the [41:19] Christ mystery culminate in a [41:22] magnificent doxology. [41:25] Quote, "Oh, the depth of the riches and [41:27] wisdom and knowledge of God, how [41:29] inscrutable are his judgments, how [41:32] unsearchable his ways." [41:35] And you know, so they actually quote [41:37] this in the document saying that, "Hey, [41:40] and and then it goes on to [41:42] to talk about I think in the next [41:43] paragraph it mentions that the Jewish [41:44] people still have a covenant with God [41:47] that's never been revoked." That's what [41:48] it says here. Uh [41:52] that [41:53] a faith in a never revoked covenant of [41:56] God with Israel [41:58] is is still a Catholic belief. And this [42:01] is in a Vatican document that was put [42:03] out. It's not magisterial, but it's a [42:04] Vatican document. And I bring this up [42:07] not only to, you know, let our listeners [42:08] know that [42:10] you're not just some outlier, even [42:11] though all you know, not enough [42:13] Catholics are aware of these statements. [42:16] You're not an outlier. This is really [42:18] officially the church position to some [42:20] extent that the Jewish people still have [42:22] a covenant with God. And how that works [42:25] out with [42:27] with there only being one path to [42:28] salvation through Jesus according to [42:30] Christianity is a mystery, which is what [42:31] Paul himself calls it. So, I bring this [42:34] up just to say [42:36] you know, it's great that they put out [42:38] these documents. But the Catholic Church [42:41] doesn't seem to be so effective at [42:43] getting these [42:45] changes and getting these statements [42:48] down through the masses, down through [42:50] the education system, so that your [42:51] average Catholic knows about them. [42:53] Because when I talk to Catholics, they [42:55] never know about these church positions. [42:58] >> Yeah, it's unfortunate. It points to a [43:00] crisis of of faith. [43:02] Again, I think not just in the Catholic [43:04] Church, but in [43:06] every church, right? Protestant churches [43:08] as well. We could if we want to become [43:10] apocalyptic, we can talk about massive [43:12] apostasy within Christianity, a loss of [43:15] faith um [43:17] across the board, not just concerning [43:18] Israel. Ironically, great ignorance of [43:21] the word of God in this age of [43:22] information. We've never had such easy [43:25] access to the word of God, but there are [43:26] also many distractions. We've never had [43:29] so many distractions. And so, you're [43:32] you're right. There's a great ignorance [43:34] of [43:35] the document that you said, the 2015 [43:37] document, which is a another [43:39] groundbreaking [43:41] But for anyone minimally informed, it's [43:43] really a no-brainer because that [43:44] document, it's very title is from Romans [43:47] 11:29, [43:48] which I've already cited several times. [43:51] Um [43:52] and I think even among Catholics who are [43:54] minimally informed, they're aware of [43:56] Romans 11, but they just don't add up [43:59] the math. They'll say, "Yeah, the gifts [44:01] and calling of God are irrevocable, but [44:04] they'll stop there and not think that [44:06] statement through. Well, what are these [44:08] gifts and calling? Right? They'll say, [44:10] "Well, the covenant is somehow still [44:12] binding." But then they won't take that [44:14] extra step to say, "Well, what should we [44:17] say about the return of the Jewish [44:18] people back to the land of Israel?" And [44:20] Pesach, I think you really, as I [44:22] mentioned to you in DC, you really hit [44:23] the nail on the head in your recent [44:25] article and video where you talk about [44:27] St. Augustine and how many of these [44:29] pundits basically resist reality and uh [44:33] they like I said earlier, they rather [44:35] than relying on the the soul of sacred [44:38] theology, which should be scripture, [44:41] they'll hang on to these traditionally [44:43] supersessionist positions of saying, [44:45] "Well, the exile of the Jews is the [44:47] proof that God has rejected them." And [44:50] now that the Jews actually are not [44:52] exiled anymore, they've returned back to [44:54] the land of Israel, they are their [44:56] theology is clashing with reality. But [44:59] you know what's the irony? As I've been [45:01] discussing with some colleagues, is that [45:03] many of these great theologians like [45:05] like Augustine [45:07] were very astute in observing reality. [45:10] So some say that had Augustine lived [45:12] today, he would be a Zionist because he [45:16] understood that whatever happens in the [45:18] world, you see the hand of God behind [45:19] it. And so while the Jews were exiled, [45:23] uh they said, "Well, this is a sign that [45:25] they've been punished by God, right? For [45:27] some reason or another." Many said [45:29] because they they rejected Christ. But [45:31] then if you see the Jews being [45:32] ingathered, [45:34] then you can't change the reality, so [45:37] you have to adjust your theology and [45:39] say, "Well, what is God doing?" And you [45:41] know, they would connect with all the [45:43] prophecies of of God returning his [45:46] people back home to the land of Israel. [45:48] So that's the irony that many of these [45:50] supersessionists, they cling to to [45:52] Augustine and they cling to the most [45:54] supersessionist of third church fathers, [45:57] but if those church fathers lived today, [45:59] I'm not sure they would go in that [46:00] direction because they were primarily [46:03] biblical theologians and I think they [46:05] would have a healthy sense of realism of [46:07] saying, well, if the Jews are coming [46:09] back to the land of Israel, then what is [46:10] God doing among among this movement, you [46:13] know? [46:14] >> Yeah, absolutely. And I I think the same [46:16] would be true of the reformers and [46:18] a lot of early Protestant thinkers as [46:21] well. For them, you know, they looked at [46:24] that and they used that proof as the [46:25] Jews being dispersed as proof that well, [46:28] this is judgment on them. And now that [46:30] they've come back, you you have to deal [46:32] with that. You have to [46:34] reconcile that and people are trying to [46:36] do that in all different ways. You've [46:38] seen some of the absurd claims of some [46:40] that well, these aren't the actual Jews [46:42] and you know, [46:44] because they have to reconcile that [46:45] issue though. So, just the fact they're [46:47] making that statement because they can't [46:49] reconcile the fact that the Jews are [46:51] back in their homeland. We have to [46:53] either dismiss it or I have to shift my [46:55] position. And and that becomes [46:57] challenging for a lot of folks. Well, [46:59] our time is getting away from us. How [47:02] can our listeners, Dr. Villeneuve, [47:05] connect with your work? How can they [47:07] support Catholics for Israel? Give them [47:10] your social media handles, websites, [47:12] etc. [47:14] >> Yeah, so go to catholicsforisrael.com. [47:17] We have a lot of stuff there. We're on [47:19] all major, well, not all but some major [47:22] social media platforms, especially [47:24] Facebook, X, [47:26] Twitter. We have a YouTube channel. [47:29] As I mentioned, we just were beginning [47:32] spearheading this new initiative called [47:33] Catholic Voices for Israel and you can [47:35] find that on catholicsforisrael.com. [47:38] And yeah, help us to spread the word [47:40] because we are still a grassroots [47:42] organization and uh [47:45] we're trying to be a new dot on the map [47:47] that changes that reality of the default [47:49] position, which as I said, I think is [47:51] very weak. It's Many people are [47:54] well-meaning. They just think, yeah, [47:55] that's what the church believes, but [47:56] when we you actually look at the [47:58] arguments, you can make a strong case [48:01] for [48:02] Catholic support of the state of Israel [48:05] while maintaining concern for the [48:06] Palestinian Christians, which is a major [48:08] concern of [48:10] of of many Catholics. And we should say [48:12] also Israeli Christians. And we just [48:14] believe that Zionism is a force for [48:17] good. It does not mean that Israel has [48:19] no moral responsibility and there are [48:21] not no issues that need to be talked [48:23] about. Absolutely. But [48:26] yeah, find us online and and help us to [48:28] spread the word. [48:31] >> Awesome. Thank you so much for being on [48:33] Shoulder to Shoulder. So appreciate your [48:35] insight. I have learned a lot and I'm [48:37] looking forward to many of my Catholic [48:38] friends connecting with this and [48:40] connecting to your work. Thank you for [48:41] being on. [48:42] >> Thanks for inviting me. [48:45] >> And thank you for listening to today's [48:46] episode. If you enjoyed this episode, [48:48] please like, rate, and share this [48:49] podcast. Come on over to Facebook, [48:51] subscribe on Patreon, find us on [48:54] YouTube. Go to Pints of Wilicki on [48:57] YouTube right now. There's a Shoulder to [48:59] Shoulder category and we have been [49:01] loving the posts and comments on YouTube [49:04] and Facebook. So appreciate each and [49:06] every one of you. But come on by as we [49:08] would love to connect with more and more [49:10] of our Shoulder to Shoulder family. And [49:12] we will see you on our next episode.
