Transcript [00:00] Jank UR wasn't prepared to debate Sam [00:03] Harris on Islam. Take a look [00:05] >> and not you you and you do not find a [00:07] basis for holy war and a desire for [00:09] martyrdom and all the stuff we're seeing [00:11] in the Muslim world. You you just don't [00:13] you said in some of your writings and [00:15] again there's a pile of papers here and [00:17] I wish I could find the exact quote for [00:19] you and but I think you'll remember it [00:20] that there's of course in the Bible [00:22] there's the famous line of give on to [00:23] Caesar what is his and and God what is [00:25] his. Right. [00:26] >> A very important line. [00:27] >> Right. Very important line and that's [00:28] part of what you're alluding to. Uh but [00:29] in the Quran there's also a line that [00:31] you've written about that says you know [00:33] don't enforce your religion on others [00:35] right and [00:35] >> no compulsion in religion [00:36] >> no compulsion in religion right which by [00:38] the way a great majority of Muslims [00:39] agree with in the world right [00:41] >> so of and in Islam there are great parts [00:44] too don't get me wrong so there is the [00:47] idea that all the races are equal and [00:49] that was not necessarily the case at the [00:51] time that the Quran was written that [00:53] certainly people didn't think about it [00:54] that way and that's why there's so many [00:56] Indonesian Muslims and German Muslims [00:58] and Muslims Muslims of all different [01:00] races, right? So there are good parts [01:02] that you can cherrypick in any religion [01:03] and bad parts that you can cherrypick in [01:05] any religion. So that's why I'm not [01:07] getting why you I think seem to think [01:10] that Islam is irredeemable whereas [01:13] Christianity is redeemable. [01:15] >> Well, let me say it's I I hope it's not [01:16] irredeemable. We we have a lot writing [01:19] on the prospect of redeeming it. I So [01:21] I'm under no illusions that we're going [01:22] to convince 1.6 billion Muslims to be [01:25] atheists. So it has to be redeemable. [01:27] So, and and you know, I'm in dialogue [01:30] with with someone who I consider to be a [01:32] genuine Muslim reformer now, Majid Noaz, [01:34] about just what is the way forward for [01:37] the reformation of that all of us are [01:40] are waiting for in the Muslim world. So, [01:42] that's that's not my view that it's [01:44] irredeemable or at least I'm you know [01:46] that that's a very bleak picture. But [01:48] again, we have to be honest about the [01:49] difference between Christianity and [01:51] Islam here. And [01:52] >> I'm not seeing it. I mean, we just had a [01:54] whole conversation. [01:54] >> No, we're not we're not done. We're not [01:55] done. Okay, one very important piece [01:58] here is the is the example of Muhammad [02:01] and the example of Jesus. Muhammad was [02:04] not a hippie who got crucified, right? [02:06] Muhammad was a conquering warlord. [02:08] Muhammad's ethics, his life course has [02:12] much more in common with [02:14] Alexander the Great or Jenghask Khan [02:18] than it does with Jesus or with Buddha [02:20] or with Mahaviraa or or other [02:23] progenitors of of the world's quote [02:26] great faith. [02:26] >> Yeah, but Jesus wanted to conquer the [02:28] world. He just sucked at it. [02:29] >> No. Well, that that's one way to say it. [02:31] But he he was not a he was not ordering [02:35] people's heads cut off. He got [02:37] crucified. or two. [02:38] >> Well, no, that's you're reading that [02:39] into the situation. But I'm saying the [02:40] ethic you get out of Jesus, he the [02:43] sermon on the mount doesn't give you, [02:45] okay, let's cut the heads off of those [02:46] those 300 Jews and let's take sex [02:49] slaves. [02:49] >> That's if you want to pick cherrypick [02:51] the good parts of the Bible. There are [02:52] plenty, [02:53] >> but the bad parts do not are not as [02:56] extensive. It's much easier to [02:58] cherrypick the good parts of the bad [03:00] parts are extensive, if not worse. [03:02] >> But let me just tell you the difference [03:03] here. First of all, the Bible is a vast [03:06] and and vastly self-contrad [03:08] contradictory book, right? So, the [03:10] cherry-picking is made so much easier by [03:13] the fact that you there's no way to [03:15] recon there's no there's no truly [03:17] central message and especially if you're [03:19] taking the Old Testament and the New [03:21] Testament and you can for you can forget [03:24] about half of it uh very easily. It [03:27] would take you a month and a half to [03:28] read the whole thing from cover to [03:29] cover. The Quran is a much shorter much [03:32] more streamlined book and it is all or [03:34] it has a central message which is very [03:37] much in harmony with the example of [03:39] Muhammad. Uh it is not the the the [03:43] central message of the Quran arguably [03:45] certainly a central message is [03:49] you you should spread this one true [03:51] faith to the ends of the earth and you [03:53] spread this by conquest not [03:56] conversation. It is it is convert or die [03:59] or if you happen to be a person of the [04:01] book you can live as a demi. Now that is [04:04] >> but so Sam that's a very important [04:06] distinction though because the Quran [04:08] says don't touch the Christians and the [04:10] Jews they're people of the book and of [04:11] course it's also wildly contradictory in [04:14] different parts and there is a very [04:15] legitimate case to be made that when [04:17] they talk about infidels they're talking [04:18] about the pagans of the time and so [04:20] >> but that's cold comfort to 1.2 2 billion [04:22] Hindus who are polytheists and just [04:25] completely beyond the pale by the light [04:27] of this doctrine. Right? So um but I I [04:30] want to deal with your points want to [04:32] convert them too and if they don't [04:33] convert them it doesn't matter because [04:34] they're all going to get blasted by God [04:36] at the head. [04:36] >> Okay. But that is that you know to be a [04:38] fiction and that's very different than [04:40] waging war in this life against these [04:43] people. Okay. It's the Azidis are not [04:45] being killed by the Iraqi Christians. [04:48] Right. And there's a reason for But then [04:49] when you get into the real world, Sam, [04:51] instead of the hypothetical world of the [04:52] doctrines, right? Again, in the real [04:55] world, there's two things that are very [04:56] important that happen. One, [04:58] historically, Christians have [04:59] cherrypicked the good parts at times, [05:01] Martin Luther King Jr., uh, Mother [05:03] Teresa, etc. [snorts] And they have [05:06] picked hideous parts of the Bible for [05:09] slavery, the Inquisition, [05:11] uh, the Holocaust, the anti-semitism, [05:13] and the list goes on and on and on. So [05:15] historically, I mean, on Holocaust [05:18] alone, let alone everything else I've [05:20] mentioned here, Christians win. They [05:21] have been the most violent. [05:23] >> Okay? But again, you have to be more [05:24] careful here because the the Holocaust [05:27] was not a straightforward and honest [05:30] implementation of Christian doctrine. [05:32] You can't look into the Bible and get a [05:34] a good Christian justification for the [05:36] Holocaust. What you get with a [05:38] >> of course you No, you can't. Of course, [05:40] it says kill them all and don't believe. [05:42] >> No. No. No. No. Not Not for [05:44] Christianity. No, it doesn't. It simply [05:46] doesn't. [05:46] >> First of all, it's in the Old Testament, [05:48] which is in the Bible. People like [05:50] pretend it's not in the Bible. If it [05:51] wasn't in the Bible, we just have the [05:52] New Testament. [05:53] >> Jesus and and and the central message of [05:55] his teaching does not get get you the [05:57] Holocaust. There's not a straight line [05:59] there. There is a straight line. [06:00] >> It's like a total excuse to be honest. [06:01] >> It's not an excuse. Well, but then look [06:03] at the differences in the real world. [06:05] Why aren't I mean, this is practically a [06:06] science experiment, right? this you've [06:08] got Christians in all in many of these [06:10] Muslim communities that are being [06:12] mistreated by the West or being [06:14] mistreated by the Israelis or just [06:15] living in very unlucky circumstances. [06:18] You have Christian communities. You have [06:19] Iraqi Christians or used to until they [06:22] started getting killed and and pushed [06:24] out. You have Lebanese Christians. You [06:27] have Christians in the West Bank and [06:28] Gaza presumably. Uh where are the [06:32] Christian suicide bombers? Where are the [06:34] Christians cutting the heads off of [06:35] Yazidis? Where where is death? Where's [06:37] this death cult behavior? [06:38] >> Don't count. You have to physically cut [06:40] some of these. [06:40] >> But no, but no, but here's a science a [06:42] science experiment. I mean, in this same [06:45] year, you have people living in the same [06:49] kinds of conditions, right? I mean, the [06:51] Christian Palestinians [06:54] have to go through the same checkpoints [06:56] as Muslim Palestinians, right, in [06:58] Israel. [06:59] >> Well, I have an answer to that. [07:00] >> Okay, what is the answer? Okay, so it's [07:02] not specifically in Palestine, but in [07:04] Northern Ireland, what did they do when [07:05] they felt they were oppressed and they [07:06] were occupied? They bombed civilians, [07:09] right? What did the Tamils do in Sri [07:11] Lanka? They bombed civilians. [07:12] >> You've changed oppressed and occupied. [07:15] They always bomb civilians. [07:17] >> I I can talk No, but they don't always [07:19] because we are not seeing the Christian [07:23] >> suicide bombers, [07:24] >> right? So, let's We could talk about [07:26] Ireland. [07:27] >> Hold on. Hold on. If you're if you're [07:29] being incredibly specific on suicide [07:31] bombers, okay, we had Buddhist suicide [07:33] bombers, kamicazi fighters. [07:35] >> Okay, [07:35] >> so we've had them all. [07:37] >> Okay, let's not be so scattershot here [07:38] to So, so I can talk I I've written and [07:41] spoken about the link between Zen [07:44] Buddhism and the kamicazi pilots, right? [07:47] So, so you can get a death cult out of [07:50] some quasi Buddhist ideas. Now there Zen [07:54] Buddhism is is different from Terravada [07:57] Buddhism and Vadriana Buddhism and it's [07:59] not it's not actually a stretch to see [08:01] how it doesn't emphasize compassion in [08:03] the same way that [08:04] >> for instance Tibetan Buddhism does. Uh [08:06] and there's so when you see Tibetan [08:08] Buddhists mistreated by the Chinese, [08:10] they're not practicing suicide bombing. [08:12] They're practicing self- emilation. [08:13] They're burning themselves, right? [08:15] They're not blowing themselves up on [08:16] buses. And it makes a lot of sense given [08:20] their religious dogmas, right? Um the [08:23] connection between the Buddhism and the [08:25] Kamicazi pilots is is drawn from Zen, [08:28] but it was also Japanese nationalism and [08:30] Shinto and it was kind of a weird brew [08:32] of of a militaristic doctrine there. But [08:34] it is easy to see how Zen was helpful [08:37] there, right? I'm not denying that. But [08:40] again, we have to we have to be honest [08:42] about the degrees of of remove from a [08:48] very clear doctrine and behavior. This [08:53] goes to the heart of the issue. This [08:54] goes to the heart of it. Go ahead. So, [08:57] it's easy to see how we could make the [08:58] Quran worse, right? So, we could make it [09:01] better and we could make it worse, [09:02] right? It is exactly the way it is and [09:04] certain lines are open to [09:05] interpretation. But it would be worse [09:07] for instance if it didn't have that line [09:09] that there's no compulsion in religion. [09:10] Right? You take that line out, you've [09:12] just taken out one tool that moderate [09:15] people have to resist all the other [09:17] barbarism there. [09:18] >> And you could we could just it's easy to [09:21] see how it could be worse. It could be [09:22] on on the bottom of every page it could [09:24] say, "Oh, and by the way, don't forget [09:26] you have to kill those homosexuals." [09:28] Right? On every page, it could re [09:29] reiterate that. um that would be a more [09:32] emphatic [09:35] exposition of a doctrine that's already [09:37] in there, but it's it it would it to [09:40] emphasize it to that degree, we would [09:42] expect more homophobia and more murders [09:45] of homosexuals in the Muslim world as a [09:47] result. Uh and if there was no and if [09:49] there was a a single page in there that [09:52] said, "Listen guys, homosexuality is a [09:54] totally natural byproduct of evolution. [09:57] It is love between a man and a man and a [09:59] woman and woman is just as legitimate. [10:01] There's no problem here. You should just [10:03] honor it. If if [10:06] there would be you wouldn't find a [10:08] hatred of homosexuals. [10:09] >> So what and we've been over this. What [10:12] you're saying is that the doctrine [10:14] matters. [10:14] >> It really matters. [10:15] >> But but Sam, I don't disagree with that. [10:17] So you had Ray Oslan on here for an hour [10:19] saying the the doctrine doesn't matter [10:21] because it's all [10:22] >> No, I don't but I don't agree with Reza. [10:24] And I said throughout that I don't agree [10:25] with Resa. talks about how the truth is [10:28] something that was a concept that came [10:30] up a couple hundred years ago. I mean, [10:32] that's a nice linguistic term. Tell that [10:34] to Plato, [laughter] right? So, I I [10:37] don't I don't agree with that. That's [10:38] why I'm agnostic. That's why I don't [10:40] believe in any of the religions, right? [10:41] Because No, there is a truth. 2 plus 2 [10:43] does equal [10:44] >> But you're still resisting the [10:46] >> No, no, you're resisting [10:47] >> specific consequences of specific [10:48] things. [10:48] >> No, no, I'm not. I I know that that [10:51] Islam by having the things that are the [10:55] the damaging parts in there lead to [10:57] sometimes bad results. I believe that it [10:59] is part of the mix as to why people do [11:02] the suicide bombings and all the bad [11:04] things, right? I believe that there is [11:06] plenty of that in the Bible that has led [11:09] to all of that as well. In fact, when [11:10] you talk about homosexuals again, who's [11:12] killed more homosexuals in history by [11:15] far the Christians by far are equally [11:17] culpable on that front. Yes. [11:19] >> Okay. So, well, not equally, worse. [11:21] Okay. [11:22] >> Well, I I wanting to kill homosexuals is [11:25] is is bad in both contexts. I mean, It's [11:28] dangerous to be It's probably more [11:30] dangerous to be homosexual in the Muslim [11:31] world at the moment. [11:32] >> Sam, that's exactly my point. My point [11:34] is that Christians have done worse to [11:37] homosexuals, but it doesn't really [11:39] matter because both don't like [11:41] homosexuals. It says it in the text. It [11:43] says it in the doctrine. Right? So [11:45] there's no need to say Islam is worse or [11:48] Christianity is worse. It's a So that's [11:50] what I'm saying when when we talk about [11:51] the heart of the issue. No, but ignore [11:53] the differences. Why ignore the [11:54] differences between now when you Okay, [11:55] hold on. Now, when you say um okay, the [11:58] doctrine of Islam is worse, which I [12:00] again we still have a disagreement on [12:02] that. Let me just let me just remind you [12:04] what I said about stem cell research. [12:06] The doctrine of Islam is totally off the [12:08] hook [12:09] >> on on that. So So now why can't why [12:11] don't you object to me saying that is [12:13] but why not object to my saying that? [12:15] >> That's it's it's it's an accurate thing [12:17] to say, but you seem to be going down [12:18] the path of oh no, they're they must be [12:20] equally bad here. We're we're coming [12:22] back to the disagreement on whether 2 [12:23] plus 2= 5 or 6 is worse when there is [12:26] plenty enough bad material in all the [12:29] religions that if you wanted to go in [12:31] that direction you would have plenty of [12:32] excuse to do so and Christianity has [12:35] done that in great abundance not only in [12:38] the past but they still do it today. So [12:40] the question to me is not whether your [12:42] text sucks because I think it does. I [12:45] think it does in Christianity and [12:46] Judaism and in Islam and in many of the [12:49] other religions but not all and not to [12:50] the same degree. But they suck enough [12:53] that it gives you excuse to do violence. [12:56] Right? So now given that given that when [12:59] you have the Tamil Tigers do the [13:01] terrorism when they're occupied and [13:03] oppressed and you have the Catholics [13:05] doing it in Northern Ireland and you [13:07] have the Muslims doing it in Palestine, [13:09] is it not fair to say, hey, wait a [13:12] minute, maybe it's not just the [13:14] religion. that religion yes [13:16] unfortunately contributes to that and is [13:18] a damaging part of the mix but obviously [13:21] there's also a geopolitical factors [13:24] involved here which leads them all to [13:26] the same result. [13:27] >> Okay. Well, let me deal with two points [13:29] here. One is [13:31] there's still the differences the [13:33] specific and and often tiny differences [13:36] between the faiths really matter in [13:38] terms of uh even though even though they [13:41] both suck equally in terms of the the [13:43] barbarism that's in there that seems to [13:44] be it's it can't these texts can't be [13:47] edited. So there the the barbarism of [13:49] Leviticus and Deuteronomy is there for [13:50] all time if you're a Christian or a Jew. [13:52] >> Uh and likewise with the with the Quran [13:54] for Muslims. Um but because of tiny [13:59] differences in theology [14:01] the different groups have different [14:03] tools available to them to ignore the [14:07] barber's passages for all time. So for [14:08] instance the line you cited from Matthew [14:10] render unto Caesar that which is Caesar [14:11] unto God that which is God's. That is is [14:15] is a huge and long lever that you can [14:18] pull to just separate politics and [14:21] religion. It's just render unto Caesar [14:23] what is Caesars's. Okay. It's just [14:24] religion's over here, politics is over [14:27] there. And that has is does immense work [14:29] for some certain number of Christians. [14:32] Uh there is not the same logic of [14:36] separating man's law from God's law in [14:40] the in the Quran and the Hadith and the [14:42] example of Muhammad. There just isn't. [14:44] This is a huge problem. [14:46] >> So So I agree and disagree on that as [14:48] well. So the part I agree with you on is [14:49] I I've always thought that um one of the [14:52] huge problems with Islam is this [14:54] marriage of mosque and state if you [14:56] right. So that's uh that it's definitely [14:59] in the books and it's definitely [15:00] something that is practiced far too [15:02] often. So I would argue that the liberal [15:04] policies progressive policies would be a [15:07] better way of getting uh the Muslim [15:10] world away from those dangerous [15:12] ideologies than some of the idea ideas [15:16] that certainly conservatives put [15:17] forward. And I would argue that you put [15:18] forward, right? But you tell me if [15:20] you're not putting it forward. Okay. So [15:23] I I agree with you on the war of ideas. [15:25] I don't know whether you called that [15:26] liberal or not. Right. But [snorts] when [15:27] you talk about possibly torturing, [15:30] possibly nuking, possibly bombing, the [15:33] continuing the occupation, etc., etc. [15:36] Hold on. Let me just finish and then [15:38] then I'll of course you'll address it. [15:39] Right. [15:40] >> When you talk about those things, I fear [15:42] that that is a militaristic approach [15:43] that does not make the situation better. [15:45] That in fact is counterproductive. that [15:47] it creates an us versus them that drives [15:50] the Muslim world more towards [15:52] fundamentalism and we get further away [15:54] from our mutual goal. [15:55] >> Okay. Well, the fear of driving the [15:58] Muslim world more toward fundamentalism [16:00] is a rational one and it is also a kind [16:03] of dispiriting dispiriting one because [16:06] what what it's saying is that that [16:09] there's a real fear that that most [16:11] Muslims or a sufficient number of [16:13] Muslims can't recognize [16:15] how abhorent ISIS and al-Qaeda and Boka [16:18] Haram and al-Shabaab are and can't see [16:21] that when we are fighting these guys and [16:23] doing our best to intervene in these [16:25] situations [16:26] We're the good guys, right? So that's [16:28] the fear, right? So the fear is if we if [16:30] we just go into Syria right now in Iraq [16:32] and just just kill ISIS that is so [16:35] inflammatory to so many Muslims who [16:37] can't see straight that we're going to [16:40] create more radicalism. Okay, that's a [16:43] legitimate fear. It says something [16:44] terrible about what's happening in the [16:46] Muslim world and about the influence of [16:48] religion. [16:48] >> It might say something terrible. [16:50] >> Let me finish you. [16:52] No, not imperialism. It's not [16:53] imperialistic to go deal with ISIS. ISIS [16:56] >> the imperialism we've done in the past [16:57] that makes them skeptic very naturally [16:59] and obviously and fairly skeptical of [17:01] our intentions today. [17:02] >> Okay, but let's spell out our intentions [17:04] adnauseium. Let's convene a summit of [17:06] all the heads of whatever you know the [17:08] greatest mosques we can get on board and [17:11] let's just spell it out. ISIS guys, [17:13] there's a real problem. Should we deal [17:15] with them right now? It's still a [17:17] rational concern that having infidels go [17:20] into mus former Muslim lands and deal [17:23] with people who claim to have started a [17:25] caliphate, that's going to be so [17:26] inflammatory that it's going to push [17:28] many more people in the direction of [17:30] radicalism. A typical chank expression [17:34] uh somebody who is flustered and losing [17:36] it and he did so in this debate. Uh Sam [17:39] Harris again educating him on his own [17:42] former religion. As far as I'm [17:44] concerned, I believe Jen Huger is a [17:47] former Muslim. So, somebody that left [17:49] Islam, still defending it, though. Still [17:51] pretending like it's just another [17:53] religion. And this is the problem with [17:56] moderate Muslims is is they'll say, [17:59] "Yeah, yeah, no problem with Islam. [18:01] Islam is great." And then when the [18:03] Islamists take over, the Islamists will [18:06] say, "Well, we want to dictate Sharia [18:08] law." Well, fine by me. Uh, here's the [18:10] infidel right here. You know, like that [18:13] is the problem. It's like they will side [18:16] with them, right? They will still have [18:18] that affinity. Many of them still do [18:20] have that affinity even those who don't [18:23] practice the faith. I wouldn't even call [18:24] him an ex-Muslim. He's a nonpracticing [18:27] Muslim or he's somebody who doesn't [18:28] practice the faith anymore. Uh but still [18:31] somebody very much, you know, [18:33] intertwined with it. And uh Sam Harris I [18:37] think does a great job of exposing the [18:39] fact that Islam is in fact a different [18:41] type of religion. It is not a you know [18:44] simply a religion of peace as they try [18:46] to portray it as. It is something very [18:49] different. It is a kind of war manual [18:52] against the west. It is it has an end [18:54] goal, an end mission and that is to [18:56] spread across the entire globe, take [18:59] over the western world and convert [19:02] everybody to Islam and then eventually [19:05] it will be a beautiful Islamic caliphate [19:09] in peace but only after everybody [19:12] converts. Thank you for watching and [19:13] I'll see you in the next one. [music] [19:22] They voted in Hamas knowing what Hamas [19:24] are. [19:25] >> Hamas gave no warning before they [19:26] slaughtered [music] 1,300 women and [19:28] children. [19:29] >> October 7th has happened. [19:35] [music] [19:41] Okay. [19:42] Killing Israel [19:45] there.
