Transcript [00:00] The overwhelming factor has in fact [00:03] nothing to do with Israel at all. Uh it [00:05] is the great distrust of institutional [00:10] credibility. This has created a great [00:12] opportunity for the Tuckers and [00:13] Candacees of the world. They've come [00:15] along and they've said, "Listen, so [00:16] there are all these people cheating you [00:18] and screwing you over, but we Tucker [00:22] Candace, we're here to tell you that [00:24] there's a master conspiracy. Uh there's [00:26] the conspiracy of conspiracies who after [00:29] all is puppeteering all these different [00:31] groups. Well, that's the Jews. Welcome [00:34] to this episode of Shouldertoshoulder, a [00:36] podcast where a pastor and a rabbi get [00:37] to the heart of issues that matter to [00:39] people of faith. I'm Pastor Doug Reed [00:41] here with my friend Rabbi Pesaki. And on [00:43] this episode, we'll be having a [00:45] conversation with best-selling author, [00:47] filmmaker, and political commentator [00:49] Desh Duza. Before we jump into our [00:51] conversation, please like our Facebook [00:53] page and join our Facebook group, the [00:55] Shoulder-to-Ser Community, where you can [00:57] interact with Pesak and me all week [00:58] long, the best way to support this [01:00] podcast is to go on over to Patreon. [01:02] Subscribe to Shouldertoshoulder. For [01:04] just $10 a month, you're helping us [01:06] bring this message of [01:07] shoulder-to-shoulder to more and more [01:08] people all around the world. As a thank [01:11] you for your $10 subscription, you'll [01:12] get exclusive access to chapterby [01:14] chapter Bible study beginning in Genesis [01:16] chapter 1 from Rabbi Pesak and myself. [01:19] So, go on over to Patreon, subscribe to [01:21] Shouldertoshoulder for just $10 a month. [01:23] We're grateful for our sponsor, Israel [01:25] 365 News, which is the place for you to [01:27] go and get your news and information [01:29] before going to anyone else. Go on over [01:31] to israel365news.com [01:34] to check out some of their articles and [01:35] be sure to read Rabbi Pesak and my [01:37] columns. Peso each and every week, [01:40] Israel 365 has incredible products and [01:42] initiatives that we get behind. What are [01:44] we supporting today on Shoulderto-Ser? [01:47] Well, Doug, this week is actually quite [01:49] simple. We're not selling anything. [01:50] We're not even asking for donations for [01:52] anything. We are simply asking people to [01:56] sign up for two very important [01:57] newsletters. In this day and age, you [01:59] cannot rely on truth about Israel coming [02:02] to you organically. The algorithm does [02:05] not necessarily feed you the truth about [02:07] Israel. So, you need to seek it out [02:09] yourself. So, click the link in the [02:12] description of this uh of this podcast [02:15] or if you're watching on YouTube in the [02:16] description of this video, you'll see it [02:18] there and that will take you to a sign [02:20] up page for two newsletters. One is the [02:22] Israel 365 News daily newsletter where [02:25] you just mentioned Doug, Israel 365 [02:27] News. This is news and analysis from [02:29] Israel from a biblical perspective and [02:32] uh that is a daily newsletter that'll [02:34] keep you up to date and informed. And [02:36] the second is a weekly newsletter, the [02:38] Israel 365 Action Newsletter. And this [02:41] will this is more targeted towards the [02:43] causes that we are that we are [02:45] advocating for towards educating you so [02:47] that you could be a stronger advocate [02:49] for Israel. You'll get information about [02:50] all of our programs, including our very [02:53] informative and inspiring webinars and [02:56] prayer calls. Uh and that that's a [02:58] weekly newsletter. You can sign up for [03:00] one or both at the link in the [03:02] description of this podcast. So go ahead [03:05] and do that. Excellent. Make sure you do [03:07] that shoulder-to-shoulder family. And we [03:09] have an incredible episode for you [03:12] today. Peso, I am so excited. Uh I can [03:16] remember being a young youth pastor and [03:18] one of the associate pastors says, "You [03:20] have to watch this documentary. You're [03:23] you probably have never heard of this [03:25] guy and then they sent me a book and a [03:26] documentary." This is uh going back [03:28] probably 15 16 years ago now. and uh [03:31] I've followed along with uh Desh's work [03:35] and it's just been incredible and [03:36] impactful for me. But why don't you give [03:39] Desh a proper introduction to our [03:41] shoulder-to-shoulder family? [03:43] >> Well, it's hard to know what to say [03:44] about someone who's such a household [03:46] name. Desh Duza is, as you said, a [03:48] best-selling author. He is a podcaster. [03:50] He is a filmmaker. There's so he's a [03:52] public intellectual. He's really one of [03:53] the leaders of our movement. When I say [03:55] our movement, I think about the [03:56] Judeo-Christian Western civilization, [03:59] the information warfare that we are [04:01] fighting, and that's really the best [04:02] term for it, the all-encompassing term. [04:04] Desh is one of the field generals in [04:06] that in that war. And uh he's also the [04:10] the host he of a show called Desh. I [04:13] guess you'll tell us more about that, [04:14] Desh, when you come in and join us. But [04:16] uh I I don't know if there's anything [04:18] more that I can say. Let me just add in [04:19] my personal note. My first book that I [04:21] read by Desh Duza was illiberal [04:23] education back before we called it [04:25] wokeness when it was called political [04:27] correctness. Desh was the one who really [04:29] blew uh blew the cover off the fact that [04:31] academia had gone had gone wayward back [04:33] when that was a new idea. And then I [04:36] read what's so great about Christianity. [04:38] It did not convince me to convert but it [04:40] was a phenomenal book. A really a really [04:42] foundational book for me in my journey [04:44] as a rabbi learning about Christianity. [04:46] That was a very important book. And ever [04:47] since then, I've been hooked on [04:49] everything that Desh does. Desh Duza, [04:51] thank you for joining the [04:52] Shoulderto-Sholder podcast. [04:54] >> Thank you. It's a pleasure. Really happy [04:56] to be with you both. [sighs] [04:58] >> So, Desh, let me just start with a [04:59] personal note that we met in Jerusalem a [05:02] few months ago. We had a nice dinner [05:03] together. Uh well, we were we were part [05:05] of a larger dinner. We we were sitting [05:07] around during dessert and we were [05:08] talking and I had the honor of driving [05:10] you and your wife uh back to your hotel [05:12] and uh just really felt like I was [05:14] talking to a kindered spirit in many [05:16] many ways and uh I wanted to just start [05:19] off with that with being in Israel [05:21] because you mentioned at the time that [05:23] the Israel space is fairly new to you [05:24] that your first trips to Israel were [05:26] have actually been fairly recent. So [05:28] could you just share with us as a uh you [05:30] know for yourself personally but also as [05:32] as a as a Christian as a person of faith [05:36] what the the encounter with Israel has [05:38] been like uh over these uh o over these [05:41] last few years. [05:43] >> My wife and I came to Israel for the [05:45] first time in December of 2022. We were [05:48] part of a kind of a larger group. Um [05:51] Sebastian Gorka and I were leading a [05:53] group of about 300 people. uh Salem [05:56] media organized it and um and it was our [06:00] first exposure uh Debbie's and mine to [06:03] to Israel and um you know these days if [06:06] you're well traveled you know very well [06:09] that much of the world is becoming very [06:11] homogenized and so if you go to [06:13] Copenhagen you go to Zurich um it's [06:17] increasingly the same um you feel like [06:20] you're essentially in a kind of somewhat [06:22] more exotic version of America but with [06:25] all the the symbols of sort of [06:27] internationalism all around you. Israel [06:30] isn't like that. You you are in the land [06:33] of the Bible uh even today. And that [06:36] feeling I think is palpable and um and [06:39] then I was exposed to uh biblical [06:42] archaeology of which I knew quite little [06:46] even though I've written three books on [06:47] Christian apologetics. [06:49] this um the artifacts coming out of the [06:52] ground that support the historicity of [06:55] the Bible was to me fascinating to learn [06:58] about but also to see and touch. And so [07:01] I was exposed to um northern Israel, the [07:05] Sea of Galilee, uh the Shilo, uh of [07:10] course Jerusalem, the pilgrimage road, [07:12] the palace of David. Uh, and I thought [07:16] to myself, wow, I mean, this is [07:18] something that that every synagogue and [07:19] every church should be like shouting [07:21] from the rooftops. Um, every pastor who [07:24] talks in Jeremiah should begin with a [07:26] 3minute video of what we know about the [07:29] historicity of Jeremiah. You've got a [07:31] you've got seals coming out of the [07:33] ground that have the names of all the [07:34] people who are around King Zedekiah and [07:36] Jeremiah. And this is so people now know [07:39] we're not just discussing a fable, a [07:41] morality tale. uh we're discussing [07:44] things that really happened. Um we're [07:46] we're discussing the the moral [07:48] topography of historical events. So, in [07:51] any event, uh I've been to Israel, I [07:53] think now four times, and um I filmed in [07:55] Israel. My film, The Dragon's Prophecy, [07:57] which came out last year, uh deals with [07:59] Israel, Hamas, radical Islam, and the [08:01] Bible. Uh and I'm now writing a book on [08:04] biblical archaeology to come out in the [08:06] fall. uh it's called the end of time but [08:09] essentially it focuses on the most [08:11] important findings of biblical [08:12] archaeology in the last 150 years. I [08:15] think what's fascinating is that the [08:17] biblical archaeology, you know, it had [08:19] an early stage where, you know, the [08:22] atheist movement of the 19th century was [08:24] kind of galloping along very confident [08:25] of itself and then, you know, bam, bam, [08:28] bam, some big biblical findings come out [08:31] and and the skeptics have to go, "Wo!" [08:33] But things are in a bit of a lull until [08:35] the formation of the state of Israel, [08:37] 1948, when all this new archaeology now [08:40] opens up. And so, you have a a second [08:42] wave of archaeological discovery. And [08:45] then I would say the third wave is the [08:46] 21st century which is in fact the most [08:49] voluminous and fruitful wave. So all of [08:52] this is happening in a very intense [08:54] ongoing way and it's happening now. H [08:56] and so to me it's very interesting to [08:58] think about what is this telling us that [09:00] you know from my point of view God is [09:02] speaking back through the stones in a [09:05] secular age using the language of [09:08] science uh and archaeology. [09:11] Now, Desh, your first introduction to [09:15] biblical archaeology, you mentioned you [09:16] didn't uh, you know, know a ton about [09:18] it. What was the one piece or what was [09:21] the one location that pulled your heart [09:22] in? What was that kind of first like, oh [09:24] my goodness, there's more here that I [09:26] have to dig through? [09:28] >> Well, you have to look at it. I'm a [09:30] literature uh, major uh, and um, with a [09:34] lot of interest in history. And so I was [09:36] very familiar with the skeptical [09:37] movement of the 19th century which [09:39] basically said, look, the Bible, you [09:41] know, it's it was written hundreds and [09:44] hundreds of years after the events it [09:45] describes. And therefore, the biblical [09:48] writers probably made a bunch of stuff [09:50] up. And if they didn't make it up [09:51] outright, they embellished, they [09:52] exaggerated, they introduced characters [09:55] to give the stories more theological [09:57] kind of import. And so there's no way to [10:00] take this seriously as these are not [10:03] real people. These are not real events. [10:05] And um and this was a this is not only a [10:10] a powerful movement of the 19th and 20th [10:13] centuries, it is basically the way most [10:15] educated people, including many [10:16] Christians, think uh about about the [10:20] faith is they're they'll they're forced [10:21] back into the I believe on faith, but [10:24] don't ask me to prove to you that like [10:26] Noah was a real guy or that Job actually [10:29] existed. Uh and so you can't believe in [10:32] a worldwide flood. You can't really [10:34] believe in Noah's arc. Uh these are [10:37] these are morality tales. Um so for me [10:40] it was not one thing, it's the it's the [10:43] accumulation of things. Uh and not only [10:46] that, it is the uh small detail. to give [10:50] you an example. So when Jeremiah is um [10:54] fulminating against King Zedekiah, [10:56] basically saying listen, you know, [10:57] you've been a corrupt and immoral king [11:00] and and God's punishment is coming in [11:02] the form of an invasion from the north [11:04] that's going to really destroy Judah. Uh [11:09] and uh the king is annoyed uh because [11:11] he's trying to build up resistance to [11:13] this coming attack from the Babylonians. [11:15] And so he he rounds up these two [11:17] relatively minor biblical characters. [11:20] They're called princes in the Bible. One [11:21] isal, [11:23] son of Shalomiah, and the other is [11:25] Gdalia, son of Pashure. Uh I would say [11:28] these are like cameo appearance guys. [11:30] They're like extras in the movie, so to [11:31] speak. And basically the king goes, you [11:33] know, keep an eye on this Jeremiah [11:35] fellow. He's causing some trouble. And [11:37] so these two guys go and scope him out. [11:39] Uh they they tell the king, you need to [11:41] probably kill this guy. And the king's [11:42] like, no, he's a prophet. I'm not going [11:44] to do that. And eventually they they [11:45] they capture Jeremiah. They throw him [11:48] into a sistern from which he escapes. [11:50] Any event, fast forward 2500 years to [11:54] some digging that's going on in the [11:56] fell, the area near the city of David. [11:58] And out of the ground, you know, come, [12:02] this is 3 years apart, but two clay [12:04] seals, they're part of a number of other [12:06] seals. These clay seals were used to uh, [12:09] you know, to seal an envelope, to to [12:10] seal a parchment, a letter. uh and the [12:13] letters are destroyed over time, but [12:15] because of the burning of Jerusalem, uh [12:17] the seals have the clay has hardened and [12:19] the seals are preserved. And one of the [12:22] seals says right on there, Jahukal, son [12:26] of J of Shalomiah. And the other one [12:28] basically, Gdalia, son of Bashure. Boom. [12:32] So these two, again, cameo guys out of [12:35] the Bible jump out of the pages of the [12:37] Bible and into the pages of history and [12:39] archaeology in one shot. And um and now [12:42] think about it. If you were making up [12:44] the Bible, let's say 300 years, 600 [12:46] years later, how would you know about [12:48] these guys? This would be like you or me [12:50] knowing about like who are the who are [12:52] the interns in President Van Beerren's [12:56] White House in the middle of the 19th [12:58] century. It may be impossible for us to [13:00] know uh at least without having access [13:02] to you know historical documents which [13:04] of course people in ancient times did [13:06] not have. So to me it is the combination [13:09] of both the big things and the small [13:11] things. But when you put them together [13:13] and then I just had one final one final [13:15] thought about it. I having now surveyed [13:18] this field pretty carefully. I've been [13:19] studying this now for about 3 years. I [13:22] don't know a single significant [13:24] archaeological finding that contradicts [13:27] the Bible. Think about that. There are [13:30] hundreds perhaps thousands of artifacts. [13:34] And so what is the probability that you [13:37] would not have found one that now there [13:40] you know there are arguments about dates [13:43] um you know was uh Jericho burned uh in [13:46] 1400 BC or was it 1300 uh and since the [13:51] Bible doesn't supply dates um it is [13:54] there's there's some of these arguments [13:56] about whether it was a little earlier [13:58] was it a little later did did Abraham [14:00] really live in 2 BC or was it 1800 BC [14:03] but a allowing for this kind of you know [14:06] reasonable elasticity. Uh the simple [14:09] fact of it is there's not a single thing [14:11] where you go the Bible says X and we now [14:13] know the truth is why and so on this [14:16] significant point the Bible is clearly [14:18] wrong. There are no examples of that. [14:21] You know, Desh, as you're talking about [14:23] those seals, and I I know the seals that [14:24] you're referring to, and but I I'd never [14:26] thought of them this way until just [14:29] listening to you talk that it's kind of [14:31] like God is is is revealing these things [14:35] to us at this time. You know, he he [14:38] wants us to realize that the Bible is [14:40] not an allegorical book, that it is [14:43] meant to be taken literally, that it is [14:44] historical, that it is real. And that [14:47] brings me, if I could segue, to a topic [14:50] that has been in the public discussion [14:52] lately, uh that there there's been this [14:56] push back against the [15:00] against Christian Zionism, against the [15:03] idea, the simple idea that the Jewish [15:05] people after being in exile for [15:07] thousands of years have returned to our [15:08] homeland, which is the most the most [15:11] repeated prophecy in the Bible. And part [15:13] of that push back is this skepticism in [15:16] certain quarters of the purportedly [15:18] Christian world about whether or not the [15:20] Jews are actually the Jews and how [15:22] authentic really are they. And you know [15:25] and it it seems to me that this is all [15:27] you know bringing us back to the plain [15:30] meaning of the Bible that it is real [15:31] that it is true. It's talking about real [15:33] people and real places and real things [15:36] which you know which deepens the the [15:40] reality of it in our minds and moves us [15:42] away from that allegorical way of [15:45] viewing it that many Christians are [15:46] comfortable in. You know, could you [15:49] comment on what you're seeing coming out [15:51] of I understand you're Catholic if I'm [15:53] not mistaken. um and certainly in the in [15:56] what we called the they call themselves [15:58] the traditional Catholic wing of the [16:00] conservative movement have seem to be [16:03] pushing back against the very reality [16:06] that God is is is is revealing to us [16:08] right now. [16:11] >> Yeah. So I was I was raised Catholic. I [16:13] went through catechism. I'm also very [16:15] steeped in the Catholic intellectual [16:17] tradition. My my uh writing on [16:19] Christianity is kind of resolutely [16:22] non-denominational. It's very much the [16:23] CS Lewis, I call it the mere [16:25] Christianity, that type of approach. But [16:28] of course, I'm very familiar with the [16:29] Catholic intellectual tradition. And um [16:32] and here's what I think is going on. The [16:37] there are certain elements that are [16:38] being pushed uh by the kind of [16:41] anti-Trump right uh that are manifestly [16:46] uh false and absurd. you know, the [16:49] denial that somehow like Jesus was a [16:51] Jew, you know, or that the [snorts] or [16:55] that that Jesus preached out of the [16:56] Hebrew scriptures. He obviously didn't [16:58] have the Christian scriptures. All the [17:00] gospels, by the way, not just the Old [17:01] Testament, but the New Testament are are [17:03] steeped in Judaism. There it's a [17:06] recognizably Jewish world. Um, and even [17:10] the um even whether or not Luke was a [17:13] Gentile, the one gospel writer who might [17:15] not have been a Jew is not obvious. He [17:17] might, it's not clear that he was a [17:19] gentile. He could have been, but [17:21] everybody else wasn't. Um, everybody [17:23] else was Jewish. Um, and so all of this, [17:26] I think, is the effort to distance uh [17:29] Christianity from all this, I think, is [17:31] um is utterly lamentable and [17:33] preposterous. [17:35] The you mentioned this uh point about [17:38] allegorical readings. And here is where [17:40] I think the issue becomes a little bit [17:43] more dicey because uh of course the [17:48] whole idea of Jesus as a Messiah comes [17:52] to some degree out of an allegorical [17:54] reading out of the Old Testament, right? [17:56] Jesus himself, for example, will say [17:57] something like like the Jews will say to [17:59] Jesus, they're like, "What are you [18:01] talking about the temple?" And he goes, [18:02] "Well, the temple is my body." So that's [18:04] an allegorical reading. you're taking a [18:06] physical temple and you're interpreting [18:09] it allegorically. [18:11] Um, however, uh, having said that, I [18:15] think that we have to make a distinction [18:17] between, um, Augustine's city of God and [18:20] city of man. And here's what I mean. The [18:23] people who advocate so-called [18:24] replacement theology, what they're [18:26] saying in effect is that there's a kind [18:29] of new spiritual dispensation that comes [18:31] with Jesus. Jesus inaugurates a kind of [18:33] new spiritual era. uh he creates a new [18:36] kind of recipe or program for salvation. [18:39] And I'm in general willing to go along [18:41] with all of this. Um but what I say is [18:44] that is in the Augustinian city of God. [18:48] That is in the spiritual domain. It does [18:50] not in any way repudiate the land [18:53] promises to Israel in the Bible. So in [18:55] other words, when you're talking about [18:57] divine allocations, there are divine [18:59] allocations in the city of God and [19:02] allocations in the city of man. In no [19:04] way are God's promises to Abraham ever [19:07] canceled out, repudiated. In no way does [19:09] Jesus goes, "We don't need to pay [19:10] attention to this all anymore." The Jews [19:12] are now out of the picture. This is [19:14] absurd. So I think what's going on here [19:16] is that the the advocates of this school [19:19] of thought are building on a um [19:24] theological proposition that is in early [19:27] Christianity, but they are extending it [19:31] beyond its proper domain to in to [19:34] essentially argue that I mean to take in [19:37] to its logical endpoint. They're [19:39] basically saying throw out the Old [19:40] Testament. We don't even need it. And [19:42] when I look at my Bible, you know, I've [19:44] got this archaeological study Bible. [19:45] It's like 600 pages long. Well, like 450 [19:48] pages are the Old Testament. The New [19:50] Testament is like 150. So, you're [19:52] telling me to throw out twothirds of my [19:54] B? I mean, my Christian Bible. Um, and [19:58] this to me is like utterly unacceptable. [20:00] So, these are just a few thoughts about [20:04] this um movement, and I think it's [20:06] fundamentally misguided and [20:08] wrong-headed. But I wanted to give you [20:10] what I think is the sort of spiritual [20:11] grain of truth that it's it's taking [20:14] because its effectiveness depends. If it [20:16] was utterly flatout absurd, nobody would [20:18] believe it. Um, usually effective lies [20:21] do contain a little kernel of truth. Uh, [20:24] and that's what's going on here as well. [20:26] >> I totally agree and that's a a great uh [20:29] analysis. I think, you know, [20:31] realistically, I I've written several [20:33] articles on replacement theology and the [20:35] the push back uh most recently that I [20:39] get is not intelligent at all. It it's [20:41] all, well, you support the modern state [20:44] of Israel. You you, you know, in support [20:46] of genocide, you it it becomes these ad [20:49] hoc attacks. I I've written literally uh [20:53] just hermeneutical style, you know, [20:56] articles where I'm just breaking down [20:58] scripture and they the comments [21:00] repeatedly over and over, hundreds of [21:01] them are in regards to the the modern [21:05] state of Israel, the war, uh etc. How do [21:08] you differentiate the two or do you not? [21:10] Do you see the modern state of Israel uh [21:13] as a part of that fulfillment and and on [21:16] its journey to the fulfillment of the [21:19] Abrahamic promises as you mentioned or [21:22] is it something totally different? [21:25] As I see it, the [21:28] the Jews of today are the descendants [21:33] the legitimate straight line descendants [21:36] of the Jews of old. I mean, think of [21:39] think of what it means to deny something [21:40] so fundamental, right? Are you really [21:43] saying that they're that the real Jews [21:45] are somewhere else and some impostor [21:47] Jews like all sneaked into Israel? I [21:49] mean, this is absurd. Makes no sense. Uh [21:52] so, so the Jews are the Jews, the same [21:55] Jews. They're no new Jews. And in fact, [21:57] they're speak language. They eat the [21:59] same food. They celebrate the same [22:00] holidays. They revive their language. Uh [22:02] they worship the same God. So, the Jews [22:06] are the Jews. Uh, Israel as a nation has [22:10] obviously had a kind of metamorphosis [22:12] over from ancient times, right? In the [22:14] in very ancient times, it was just [22:16] tribes. Uh, and then there was the [22:18] period of the judges and the nation of [22:20] Israel really consolidated under uh Saul [22:23] and then David and Solomon. Uh, but even [22:26] that was shortlived. Then Israel was [22:28] there was a division between northern [22:30] Israel and southern Judah. Um, and but I [22:33] don't think it's really deniable that [22:35] when the Bible talks about the Jewish [22:37] people coming back and forming a nation. [22:39] I mean, again, what other nation are we [22:41] talking about if not the nation of [22:43] Israel, the solitary nation of Israel of [22:46] which there is no other. Now, of course, [22:48] one can say, I don't agree with how, you [22:52] know, Netanyahu was looking the other [22:53] way while October 7th happened, or I [22:56] don't think they should have gone all [22:58] the way to try to create regime change [23:00] in Iran. So, I'm not saying that [23:02] Christian support for Jews in Israel, [23:04] which I think is morally obligatory [23:07] translates into sort of uh day-to-day [23:10] support of any given policy. You can [23:12] argue about it. Uh and uh but uh in [23:15] terms of the broad outlines that [23:17] Christians have a duty to support Israel [23:19] and Christians have a duty to support [23:20] the Jews and not only a a duty in the [23:23] sense of a painful obligation. I mean to [23:25] me it's like a joyous affirmation of a [23:28] spiritual continuity. U I mean we speak [23:31] of you know God family and country right [23:33] and I'm America first but well actually [23:36] no I'm not in a certain sense I'm not [23:37] America first I'm America third. God [23:39] first family second America third. Uh [23:42] obviously I'm America first compared to [23:44] my allegiance not being to any other [23:45] country. Um but you know what is the [23:48] spiritual homeland of Christians if not [23:50] Israel? Where else is it? Um, you know, [23:53] we have an attachment to certain parts [23:55] of Greece where Paul went and we have an [23:57] attachment to Catholics do to Rome. Uh, [24:00] but there's no question that Jesus's [24:02] homeland is Jerusalem and northern [24:05] Israel. And so, uh, I think that, um, [24:08] that Christians should view Israel as a [24:11] spiritual homeland. [24:14] Desh, if I could move the discussion [24:16] into a little bit of the political space [24:18] here, um, in terms of as as it relates [24:22] to Israel, you know, that's what we talk [24:23] about on this podcast for the most part, [24:26] uh, there there is a wellocumented and [24:30] marked decline in support for Israel [24:32] among younger conservatives in America. [24:35] And that's that's and that's that's kind [24:38] of underlying a lot of this issue that [24:40] we're talking about. The way that [24:42] replacement theology is being [24:43] weaponized. Uh efforts being made by [24:46] certain characters like the ones we [24:49] know, Tucker, Candace, the rest of them [24:51] to drive a wedge between Jews and [24:53] Christians. Um, but as you see it, are [24:57] there what are the ingredients that have [24:59] contributed to this to this move away [25:03] from support for Israel among and I'm [25:05] not talking about the leftists, I'm [25:07] talking about young conservatives who [25:10] are rejecting the the pro-Israel [25:12] positions of their parents. How do you [25:14] see that? [25:15] >> In in my view, the the overwhelming [25:18] factor uh has in fact nothing to do with [25:22] Israel at all. Uh it is the great [25:26] distrust of um institutional [25:31] credibility that grew out of uh really [25:35] the events of the last dozen or so [25:38] years, the Trump era, the um COVID and [25:42] the lies around COVID, the um whole [25:46] barrage of censorship that attended the [25:48] aftermath of the 2020 election which [25:50] many people thought was stolen. the [25:52] belief that we trusted the NIH and the [25:55] CDC and the FBI and all these people [25:58] have been lying to us. So that there is [26:00] there's already this sort of [26:02] susceptibility [26:03] uh to distrust established authority uh [26:07] and believe in conspiracies. Conspiracy [26:10] it's almost like conspiracies have [26:12] become more credible because a number of [26:14] them have proven true. So you have that. [26:17] Uh the second factor I think you have [26:19] and this does come out of America first [26:21] is the belief among a whole generation [26:24] of young people. This explains their [26:26] susceptibility to what we're talking [26:27] about. That that somehow the American [26:32] dream has bypassed them for the first [26:34] time in in in this country's history. [26:36] They don't have a a confidence they will [26:38] live better than their parents. Even [26:40] though I think they're wrong, they [26:41] actually will, but they don't think they [26:43] will. Uh they think I can't buy a house. [26:45] I can't get a decent job. I mean, I [26:47] don't want to go like be a loader at [26:48] Amazon or or Uber driver. uh my dad [26:53] could look forward to, you know, getting [26:54] a job in a in a corporation and travel [26:57] and have a you know u allowance and and [27:01] have healthcare. So these young people [27:04] believe that that that [27:07] the country and the leaders of the [27:09] country who are kind of all in it [27:10] together have put them at the very [27:13] bottom of the list. Somebody else is [27:16] ahead of them. And so the reason this [27:18] has created a great opportunity for the [27:20] Tuckers and Candacees of the world is in [27:22] a sense, if you think about it, here's [27:24] what they've done. They've come along [27:25] and they've said, "Listen, you're being [27:27] screwed over by the uni party, which is [27:30] the Republicans and Democrats are in it [27:31] together. You're being screwed over by [27:33] big pharma and big food, and you're [27:36] being screwed over by this defense [27:38] industry that just basically lobbies for [27:40] weapons so they can get more money for [27:41] Lockheed and so on." And and so there [27:44] are all these people cheating you and [27:46] screwing you over, but we Tucker [27:50] Candace, we're here to tell you that [27:51] there's a master conspiracy. Uh there's [27:54] the conspiracy of conspiracies who after [27:56] all is puppeteering all these different [27:59] groups. Well, that's the Jews. So [28:01] they're they're reviving an ancient [28:03] liel. Uh but they're doing it in a much [28:06] more fertile new context. uh and the new [28:09] context is that people are now much more [28:11] willing to believe uh even against the [28:14] evidence of their you know I say to [28:16] people I go listen I mean Israel is 10 [28:18] million people the United States is 350 [28:21] million let's compare GDP let's compare [28:24] the arsenals so Israel is like [28:27] Luxembourg you know and the United [28:29] States is like the Soviet Union now [28:30] you're telling me that Luxembourg is [28:32] like running the Soviet Union now I mean [28:36] this is insane but they're willing to [28:39] believe it because again they have [28:41] bought into a level of sur reality or [28:44] unreality uh that I I I would not have [28:46] seen in in my earlier career earlier [28:49] generations. You couldn't get away with [28:50] this like in 2003 or 1995. There'd be a [28:55] whole group of smart people from Irving [28:57] Crystal to Bill Buckley, you know, who [28:59] would basically say, you know, this [29:01] person needs to be removed from the room [29:03] because they're talking complete [29:06] gobbledegook. [29:08] Um but and that's the other factor I [29:10] haven't mentioned which is that we don't [29:11] have these sort of intellectual [29:13] referees. What we have in today's [29:15] culture are social media pundits and [29:18] gurus. Uh and these are people who will [29:20] say things like you know uh I'm going to [29:22] be releasing a new podcast on the [29:24] complexities of the straight of hormuz. [29:27] And I'm like you're a college dropout [29:30] and I don't even think you know anything [29:32] about the world. Have you ever taken [29:33] geography where you're going to be [29:35] talking for an hour on the straight of [29:36] hormoons and they're all Yeah, I am. You [29:38] know, so you have all this stuff kind of [29:42] convergence of of it and and as a [29:44] result, we're in a very strange moment [29:47] of our public discourse. [29:49] >> So I wonder, I'm the glass half full [29:52] guy. I have four beautiful kids uh that [29:55] are all coming into their teenage years [29:57] and coming of their own. Uh what hope do [30:00] we offer the next generation? cuz so [30:02] much of the conspiracy theory space uh [30:05] that Tucker and those like him kind of [30:08] occupy is it's void of any hope. [30:11] Everything is against you. There's [30:12] nothing you can do about it. It's very [30:13] much a a victim mentality. You're stuck [30:17] and the only way to uh emerge out of [30:19] this is to continue to listen about how [30:21] bad it is and come back for my next [30:22] episode as I tell you worse and worse [30:24] things. I I really think we have a duty [30:27] I feel as a as a minister I have a duty [30:30] to offer hope to the next generation. [30:32] What do you see a as the hope for uh [30:35] America for Western civilization for uh [30:38] the future of the the world? [30:42] >> I'll offer one item of great to me hope [30:45] and also an item of caution. the the [30:48] item of hope is that I think that the [30:51] some of the most difficult projects of [30:54] the past three or 4 hundred years the [30:56] great struggle for survival and comfort. [31:00] I mean if I think for example of the [31:01] difference between India and America the [31:03] main difference is that in America um [31:06] the vast majority of people have a [31:08] comfortable life um and um and uh India [31:13] is getting there but it's uh it isn't [31:15] there yet um this struggle for uh to [31:20] overcome necessity has defined human [31:22] civilization now for from the beginning [31:25] to now right but I think a lot of the [31:28] things that make our civilization [31:29] energy, for example, I think is going to [31:31] be so abundant that it's going to be [31:33] virtually free. Um, I think that [31:36] robotics is going to make physical labor [31:38] essentially close to free. And think of [31:41] what that means. What that means is that [31:42] somebody can a robot can make other [31:45] robots that can build a house. Uh, and [31:48] so that tells me that home prices uh [31:50] over the next several decades are going [31:53] to drop to preposterously low levels. [31:56] So, all these young people are like, "I [31:57] can't buy a house cuz I can't afford [31:59] $700,000." [32:01] Well, you're going to feel a lot better [32:02] when houses cost $50,000 or less. Um, [32:06] now complications come with all that. [32:08] You know, AI uh and so I'm not implying [32:11] that there isn't a sort of two-sided uh [32:14] deal that we have here and we have to [32:16] pay attention to that. But overall I do [32:18] think that there is enormous prosperity [32:21] ahead. Uh and it is going to leave [32:23] earlier generations um uh far behind and [32:27] that's a good thing in the sense that [32:29] for those who who say you know I spend [32:33] all my week trying to support my family [32:36] and make a living so that I can go to [32:38] church on Sunday and have a little free [32:39] time off on Saturday. Now imagine if you [32:43] if your day was opened up and you did [32:46] work but you worked let's say two days a [32:48] week uh and you now can go to church [32:50] five days a week you can learn uh you [32:52] can expand your mind you can travel it [32:55] offers immense possibilities and now [32:58] obviously used well you know there [32:59] people go well you know a lot of people [33:01] just going to like lie on their couch [33:02] and take drugs you know and watch porn [33:05] and this is going to be the way they use [33:07] their freedom and their prosperity and I [33:09] grant that freedom can be used well can [33:11] be used badly. Uh I do think that the um [33:15] Islamic project which is in itself [33:18] deeply unattractive in fact even to [33:20] Muslims. Look how popular it is in Iran [33:22] right now. Not very um even despite 50 [33:25] years of massive Islamic indoctrination. [33:28] This project is is is now coming [33:32] visiting or to put it differently, it's [33:34] coming to stay in Australia, in Canada, [33:37] in Europe, in the United States. And [33:39] it's coming to a an America that is not [33:42] prepared for it, does not understand it, [33:45] doesn't know how to cope with it, [33:47] responds to it by and large with our [33:49] usual appeals to tolerance, uh, [33:53] religious freedom. um we we hearken back [33:57] to the kind of passport of our [33:59] liberties, but radical Islam is [34:01] traveling on the passport of those [34:03] liberties. So this to me, I'm doing a [34:05] film about this this year, uh remains a [34:08] potent challenge for our society to deal [34:11] with. [34:12] >> Yeah. But but how do we deal with that? [34:14] I mean, you know, the [34:17] when when you look at Europe and you [34:18] mentioned the problems we have, the [34:21] weaponization of the freedoms granted in [34:24] the west by the Islamic project [34:28] u by the Muslim Brotherhood and all of [34:30] its tentacles [34:32] there. I don't see a real willingness in [34:36] the West to push back against it. And [34:39] you know, we could soon be approaching a [34:41] time where the center of gravity of [34:46] Islamism or whatever you want to call it [34:48] is in Europe and not even in the world [34:51] where it originated where they're you [34:54] know where they're actually outlawing [34:55] these groups. The the you know for I [34:59] understand the diagnosis of the problem [35:02] but what is the recipe for pushing back [35:05] against this? What is that? What does [35:06] the playbook even look like? [35:11] >> So there are three things that are going [35:14] uh for the Islamic project and you have [35:16] to sort of think about them one by one. [35:18] Um the first one is the fact that you [35:20] have this psychological peculiarity that [35:23] you take a Muslim, let's call him Ahmed, [35:25] and if he lives in the UAE, [35:28] um they're cracking down on him and in [35:31] fact he doesn't really particularly see [35:33] the appeal of Islam per se, but if he [35:37] moves to London, somehow the [35:40] psychological equation changes because [35:43] now he feels and he feels like he is in [35:46] sort of the house of war, right? the the [35:49] he's outside the house of Islam. Uh he [35:51] has a kind of divinely ordained mission. [35:54] Um so [35:57] you have the paradox that western [36:00] society is a more fertile field for the [36:05] flowering of radical Islam in the same [36:07] guy who would be less tempted to be that [36:10] way if he was in Egypt or if he was in [36:12] Jordan or in Bahrain. That's the first [36:15] factor that supports that helps the the [36:17] Muslim project. The second factor is the [36:19] alliance with the left and when when you [36:22] were asking before um you know the left [36:25] shows the radical Muslims the ropes. By [36:28] that I mean you know I I realize they're [36:30] all you know a lot of them are corrupt [36:32] in in Moadishu and in Somalia but I [36:35] don't believe that you can take a bunch [36:36] of drop them off in Minnesota and [36:39] they'll figure out how to play the [36:40] system. They don't know how to play the [36:41] system. They don't even know how to get [36:42] around. But the left shows up and goes, [36:45] "Hey guys, listen. We're your friends. [36:47] We're going to show you how to do it." [36:49] See, you set up an NGO like this and [36:51] it's got to be 501c3. And here's what [36:54] that means. And so the the second thing [36:57] going for these guys is the is the fact [36:59] that they are being and it's not just [37:01] that the left is doing it because they [37:02] don't like Trump. They're doing it [37:04] because they see these people as [37:06] long-term allies in their project to [37:08] take down traditional America and the [37:11] West and Christianity. So they have [37:13] common goals. Um so that's the second [37:16] factor. And I think the third factor is [37:18] the the kind of naive as well as the uh [37:22] paralysis on the right that if you have [37:26] a bunch of let's just take a bunch of [37:27] Muslims in Texas and they go listen we [37:29] want to buy a thousand acres in Texas. [37:32] We want to we want to make the the [37:34] largest mosque in America and it's going [37:36] to be right next to a madrasa for a [37:38] thousand Muslim boys. is we're going to [37:41] be teaching them Sharia law. And then [37:43] the right-wingers will go, "You can't do [37:45] that." And the Muslims will go, "Oh, [37:47] really? You don't believe in free [37:49] markets? We're buying the land with our [37:50] own money. Number two, we're setting up [37:53] a private education system. Haven't you [37:55] guys been talking about the virtues of [37:56] private education for like 30 years? [37:59] Don't you have a voucher program for [38:01] private education? Why won't we qualify [38:03] for that the same as you?" And third, uh [38:06] yeah, we're going to be doing our usual [38:07] call to prayer and so on. Don't you ring [38:09] your church bell? Don't you believe in [38:11] the First Amendment? So, if we have the [38:13] right to private property and private [38:15] education and the First Amendment, you [38:18] might not like us, but you don't have [38:21] any basis to stop us. Uh, and so I think [38:24] that right here you begin to see this is [38:26] the area that has to be dealt with and [38:28] thought through because we have to [38:31] respond to all three of those, I would [38:34] call them driving forces of the Islamic [38:36] project. [38:38] Well, and it really comes down to [38:39] worldview. We're we're not comfortable [38:42] saying that the Islamic [38:45] worldview is not compatible with Western [38:49] civilization. We're uncomfortable saying [38:51] that some worldviews, some theology, [38:54] some philosophies are not as good as [38:56] others because we live in this kind of [38:59] pluralistic society where everything is [39:01] equal and you can believe you and you [39:03] can do this. And so I I think it's going [39:05] to have to come from uh some backbone on [39:09] uh those of us fighting for Western [39:11] civilization to say those things aren't [39:13] acceptable in the modern world. These [39:15] these are not combatible with Western [39:18] values. Well, Desh, we're coming to uh [39:21] the end of our time and we could sit [39:22] here and talk for uh hours with you. Uh [39:26] tell our listeners where they can find [39:29] uh your newest projects, what's coming [39:31] up for you. Tell us about Desh. Uh we [39:34] want to see more and more of them uh [39:35] connect with you and your work. [39:39] >> Well, follow me on X at Desh Juza. I um [39:43] do a weekly show. It's called Desh. It's [39:45] on um video on X and Rumble and YouTube [39:50] and it's also in audio on Apple and [39:52] Spotify. I'm doing a film for later this [39:55] year called United States of Islam about [39:58] all the stuff we've just been [39:59] previewing, so to speak. Um, I also have [40:02] a book called The End of Time on uh the [40:06] greatest findings of biblical [40:07] archaeology that's coming out in the [40:08] fall as well. And so I am um I'm doing [40:12] my you know a combination of um weekly [40:16] commentary but also um keeping my my [40:20] full my kind of career project of being [40:22] an author and then I've got some film [40:25] projects going. I'm also doing a [40:26] special, by the way, a little more [40:28] tentative because this is um this is um [40:31] something that is underway, the [40:33] archaeology of Noah's Ark. Um which [40:36] obviously if found would be the most [40:38] spectacular discovery of biblical [40:39] archaeology of all time. Uh and and I'm [40:43] not saying it has been found, but I I [40:44] have a 4 episode series coming up that [40:47] that explores this question in some uh I [40:50] think some pretty riveting detail. [40:54] >> Very nice. I cannot wait. That will be [40:56] uh extraordinary. My four homeschoolers, [40:58] I'm sure, will uh be watching it. So, [41:01] very much looking forward to that. Well, [41:03] thank you so much for uh giving your [41:05] time today to Shouldertoshoulder. It has [41:07] been a true joy and pleasure to get to [41:09] meet you uh even virtually. [41:11] >> It's been my pleasure. Thank you. [41:14] >> And thank you for listening to today's [41:16] episode. But if you enjoyed this [41:17] episode, please like, rate, share this [41:19] podcast, subscribe on Patreon, come on [41:21] over to Facebook, like our page, join [41:22] our group as we would love to connect [41:24] with more and more of our [41:25] shoulder-to-shoulder family. and we'll [41:27] see you on our next
