Transcript [00:00] the belief that the only thing that [00:02] stood between Israel and Middle East [00:06] peace was one more Arab state, a [00:09] Palestinian Arab state in Gaza and in [00:11] Judea Samaria, the West Bank. Given the [00:14] opportunity, and that's important, given [00:16] clear, concrete opportunities, [00:19] both Arafat and Abu Mazin as leaders of [00:23] the Palestinian Arabs walked away from [00:26] clear concrete opportunities to have a [00:29] state, to have independence, to have [00:32] statethood, followed it up with massive [00:35] violence, and that led me to begin to [00:38] question uh my assumptions about what I [00:41] thought they wanted. Welcome to this [00:43] episode of Shouldertoshoulder, a podcast [00:45] where a pastor and a rabbi get to the [00:47] heart of issues that matter to people of [00:48] faith. I'm Pastor Doug Reed here with my [00:50] friend Rabbi Pesaki. And on this [00:53] episode, we'll be having a conversation [00:55] with a self-proclaimed [00:58] Zionist feminist atheist Dr. Enaut Wil. [01:02] Before we jump into our conversation, [01:04] please like our Facebook page and join [01:05] our Facebook group, the Shoulder-to-Ser [01:07] Community, where you can interact with [01:09] Pesak and me all week long. The best way [01:11] to support this podcast is to come on [01:13] over to Patreon, subscribe to [01:14] Shouldertoshoulder, and for just $10 a [01:17] month, you're helping us bring this [01:18] message of shoulder-to-shoulder to more [01:20] and more people all around the world. As [01:22] a thank you for your $10 subscription, [01:23] you'll get exclusive access to chapterby [01:25] chapter Bible study beginning in Genesis [01:28] chapter 1 from Rabbi Peso and myself. [01:30] So, go on over to Patreon, subscribe to [01:32] Shouldertoshoulder for just $10 a month. [01:35] We're grateful for our sponsor, Israel [01:37] 365 News, which is the place for you to [01:39] go and get your news and information [01:40] before going to anyone else. Go on over [01:42] to israel365news.com [01:45] to check out some of their articles and [01:47] be sure to read Rabbi Pesak and my [01:48] columns. Peso each and every week. [01:51] Israel365 has incredible stuff going on. [01:54] They have initiatives, products, uh so [01:56] many things at their website. What are [01:58] we supporting today? Well, we're [02:00] supporting a very special trip, a very [02:02] exclusive trip. This won't be for [02:03] everyone in the audience, but this [02:05] coming March, March 7th through 14th, an [02:08] 8-day trip to Israel, will be led by [02:12] yours truly, by myself and Dr. David [02:14] Worer, who's been on the podcast before, [02:16] but also once a week on Israel 365 News [02:19] YouTube channel. I I have a conversation [02:21] with Dr. Wormser that's been going on [02:23] since the beginning of the Iran War. And [02:25] we talk about politics. We talk about [02:26] everything going on in the Middle East. [02:28] And Dr. Worms is one of the world's [02:30] leading experts on the Middle East. He [02:31] served in multiple white houses and the [02:33] in the State Department and the in the [02:35] National Security Council and he serves [02:37] as a fellow in a number of different [02:38] think tanks and he will be joining us [02:40] for the entire 8 days joining touring [02:43] Israel. We'll be meeting with uh with [02:45] senior figures in the Israeli military [02:47] in the Israeli government uh as well as [02:49] leading journalists and community [02:51] leaders in Israel. It's going to be a [02:52] unique trip. We're going to have [02:53] briefings on location at certain key [02:56] strategic locations like the borders. Uh [02:58] it's going to be a very special trip and [02:59] we're keeping it small. It's going to be [03:01] an exclusive trip under 20 participants [03:03] and it is also a fivestar accommodation [03:06] trip. So, not for the faint of heart, as [03:08] I should say, but if uh if this sounds [03:10] like something you're interested in, [03:11] check out the link in the description of [03:12] this video. It will be in the [03:14] description of this video. Uh and it's [03:16] Israel behind the headlines tour March [03:17] 7th through 14th. Space is limited and [03:19] we've already uh there's already uh you [03:21] know quite a number of spots have [03:23] already taken. There's still some spots [03:24] left. Uh but really a once in a-lifetime [03:26] opportunity. [03:28] >> Excellent. Make sure you stop by and [03:30] sign up for that. Sounds incredible. [03:33] Can't wait to follow along on social [03:35] media. I'm sure there'll be lots of [03:36] pictures and videos and YouTube action [03:39] happening. So, so important for you to [03:41] do that. Pesak, you are in the midst of [03:44] Sukkot. How is the holiday? How's the [03:47] family? How's celebrating? [03:49] >> It's been wonderful. We've been down in [03:51] Oshkalone and uh it's been it's been [03:53] kind of hot. So, it's been hot sitting [03:54] in the suka, but it's been beautiful [03:57] beach weather. been spending time with [03:58] the kids. I had my grandson here uh for, [04:01] you know, for the first day and a number [04:03] of the kids around. It's been really [04:05] wonderful. And of course, as I keep [04:06] mentioning the last few weeks, I'm super [04:08] excited this coming weekend to spend [04:10] Shabbat, to spend some Torah, the final [04:12] day of Sukkot with over 300 Christian [04:16] leaders from around the world that are [04:18] being brought to Israel by eagle's [04:19] wings. And in my community this uh this [04:21] past Shabbat here in Ashkalone, there's [04:23] a lot of English speakers down here and [04:25] they asked me to speak on Shabbat [04:27] afternoon on the afternoon of the first [04:29] the first day of the festival was on [04:30] Shabbat. And I chose to speak about what [04:33] we talked about on the last podcast to [04:35] talk about Zechariah 14 uh and uh and [04:38] about the Christians in the world today [04:40] and and what they're doing here in [04:41] Israel coming every Sukkot and really [04:43] kind of giving a pep talk as it were to [04:45] my to my fellow Jews about how you know [04:49] throughout the exile there was not a lot [04:51] of reason to think that the world was [04:53] listening to what we had to say and [04:54] because of that we kind of forgot about [04:56] this important universal mission that we [04:58] have to bring knowledge of God to all [05:00] the families of the earth. But the time [05:02] has come from the Jewish people. We've [05:04] come of age. We've matured. We're back [05:05] in our land. There's nothing to be [05:07] afraid of anymore. And it was great. You [05:09] know, I didn't even get that much push [05:10] back. Often when I share these ideas [05:12] with, you know, with a lot of my fellow [05:13] Jews, I get push back. But this [05:14] community was very receptive. Uh people [05:17] were very excited by the ideas. Uh and [05:20] uh and it was really So, it's been [05:22] great. It's been it's been a lot of fun [05:24] hanging out with the kids, like I said, [05:25] hang out with my neighbors. I've been [05:27] getting work done and still been putting [05:28] out videos. those of you who follow this [05:30] channel and and see uh if you're [05:31] watching on YouTube, uh I am I am [05:34] putting out material. So, I've been busy [05:35] just the same. But, yeah, it's going [05:37] great. [05:39] Awesome. And uh I'm watching as a number [05:42] of our pastors leaders uh are landing. [05:45] They're all arriving. They're enjoying [05:47] the sunshine. Several were there a day [05:49] or two early and got some beach time in [05:51] as well there in Tel Aviv. And so, [05:53] really watching with excitement, wishing [05:56] I was there. This is the first uh [05:58] September October in a while that I have [06:01] not been in Israel and so I'm looking [06:03] forward to God willing being back next [06:05] year uh in the mix of uh the high holy [06:08] days. It's going to be special. Pesaf, [06:10] why don't you introduce our incredible [06:12] guest on this episode? It is my honor. A [06:15] not Wolf is a former member of Knesset, [06:18] someone who's been involved in public [06:19] life in Israel for a long time. She's [06:22] also a candidate for Knesset currently [06:24] on a party which is really a merger of a [06:27] few of a few parties. One of them is a [06:29] party O that uh founded and now they've [06:32] merged together with a couple of other [06:34] parties and a party that is um on behalf [06:36] of the reserveists and the economy. [06:38] We'll have her talk about that more. But [06:40] more importantly to meat Wolf is one of [06:43] the leading public intellectuals in [06:44] Israeli life today. I've heard I've [06:47] heard you speak a number of times and I [06:49] recently read the book uh war of return [06:52] that you co-authored with Ad Schwarz and [06:54] it is if I was making a reading list for [06:57] a course on the Middle East on the [07:00] Israeli Arab conflict this would be [07:03] absolute required reading it really you [07:06] really drill down on the whole [07:07] Palestinianism [07:09] issue. Now, I'm going to tee you up with [07:11] a question after thanking you for being [07:13] on the podcast that I was watching the [07:15] UN proceedings over the last week and [07:18] speech after speech these world these [07:20] quote unquote leaders got up and it [07:23] almost sounded like a religious liturgy [07:26] that they were stating this this like [07:28] statement of faith uh in the Palestinian [07:32] issue almost paring it with completely [07:35] detached from from the political [07:38] realities. and I kept thinking about all [07:40] the points that you made in that book. [07:42] So before we get into other things, I [07:44] just had to ask you, what were your [07:46] thoughts as you watched this parade at [07:49] the UN last week? [07:52] >> Uh I guess it's a combination of [07:56] resignation and frustration. [07:59] Uh the resignation is as you said it's [08:01] kind of a ritual element where at one [08:04] point you wonder do people do not know [08:08] do not understand do not care anymore [08:13] and the frustration is from the same [08:16] place. The facts are all there. One is [08:20] merely required to look and see and [08:23] listen. But like you described, it [08:26] became a kind of public ritual ceremony. [08:33] >> You know, I have to ask upfront. Uh, you [08:36] know, I come to this as a Christian [08:37] pastor and my Zionism is informed uh by [08:41] scripture. Pesak is a rabbi. Can you [08:44] talk about your Zionism? How do you come [08:46] to that place as a self-described uh [08:49] atheist and feminist? Where does your [08:52] Zionism come from? help help our [08:53] audience understand. [08:55] >> Certainly, um the wonderful writer Darra [09:00] Horn has uh crafted a great answer to [09:03] the question, what are the Jews? Because [09:06] she's like, when people ask, is it a [09:09] religion, a faith, an ethnicity, a race? [09:13] What is it? What are you? And her [09:16] response is we predate those categories. [09:20] We have our own name that predates them. [09:24] It's one word, uh, two letters, one [09:27] syllable. Um, and um, she describes [09:32] essentially as a joinable tribe, uh, a [09:35] form of life and a form of collective [09:38] identity that was once very common uh, [09:42] in our region. You still have some [09:45] formats of that today being somewhat [09:48] Armenian, Yazidis, [09:51] uh, Ara, you have a kind of remnants of [09:54] that in the region. But the Jews are [09:56] clearly kind of the the most prominent [10:00] that have kept that format and have kept [10:02] that format while dispersed. Um, as a [10:07] result, the whole notion of Jews as a [10:10] religion is actually a 19th century [10:14] creation, a western creation intended to [10:18] fit the unique Jewish format into the [10:22] western idea of religion and state and [10:26] how you separate them. So within the [10:30] Jewish context, you can very much be a [10:32] member of a Jewish people. you are born [10:35] into the tribe or you join the tribe. [10:38] While when you're in the tribe, you can [10:40] believe or not believe or go in and out [10:43] of believing and uh carry out the [10:46] mitzvot some more, some less, but that [10:50] is all within the context of your [10:54] membership in the tribe. Uh so um as I [10:58] explained to people beginning [11:00] essentially in the 19th century when [11:03] people begin to question the very [11:05] existence of a transcendental god when [11:08] people are more clearly I mean people [11:12] have been like that probably forever but [11:14] people are more clearly expressing the [11:17] fact that they question that existence. [11:19] it doesn't make them any more or less [11:21] Jewish. And that is often something that [11:24] is confusing to people who have adopted [11:28] the western notion of conceiving being [11:30] Jewish as a faith or a religion. Uh and [11:34] uh the idea is that whether you believe [11:37] or not uh matters exactly zero to how [11:41] Jewish you are. So for me my Zionism is [11:45] very much informed by my membership in [11:48] the Jewish people. It is a national [11:51] identity. It is about our historic and [11:54] cultural heritage and about my most [11:57] important my care of duty and care of [12:00] solidarity for my people. Or as one [12:04] Christian pastor once told me he said [12:07] you might not believe in God but God [12:10] believes in you. [12:13] And now you know President Reagan who [12:16] was originally a Democrat used to say [12:18] that he didn't leave the Democratic [12:20] party. the Democrat the Democratic Party [12:22] left him. And now you served in the [12:25] Knesset as a member of the Labor Party [12:29] and you were an adviser to Shimon Perez [12:31] who was the architect of the Oslo [12:34] process and uh you know that whole way [12:37] of thinking. But today you are no longer [12:40] part of labor and many of the positions [12:42] you hold, many of the things you say [12:44] about the issue of the Arabs known as [12:46] the Palestinians, about Gaza, about the [12:49] Israeli Arab conflict sound much closer [12:51] to arguments traditionally associated [12:53] with the Israeli right. Uh now I'm sure [12:55] you have stories to tell about [12:57] friendships and what's happened in your [12:59] personal relationships, but that's not [13:00] what this conversation's about. But what [13:03] changed in uh in you? What did the Labor [13:05] party change like Reagan said about the [13:07] Democrats? Did you change? Uh if you did [13:10] have an ideological shift, can you [13:12] explain why that took place? And uh you [13:16] know just elaborate on this for us. [13:19] >> Uh certainly. And uh someone once called [13:22] me the Israeli Jane Kurpatre. I think [13:24] she also said something similar about uh [13:27] the Democratic Party. Uh yes, you are [13:30] absolutely right that if you look at my [13:31] positions today, uh if someone is old [13:34] enough, uh they will tell me that they [13:37] sound exactly like old labor, right? [13:40] Bengorian, Gula. If you listen to the [13:44] words uh division, the description of [13:48] the kind of the foundational leaders of [13:51] Israel and what was known as Mapai as [13:53] the old Labor Party. Um I will sound [13:56] very much in that vein. So you are [13:59] correct that indeed the Labor Party has [14:02] gone to a place that is different than [14:05] its foundational ideas. uh I still [14:08] contain and and uh continue to promote [14:12] uh a lot of the ideas of that old labor [14:15] also the idea of uh kind of the military [14:19] and the school system being public and [14:22] being a way of constructing the people [14:25] the nation solidarity the duties of [14:28] citizenship [14:30] but uh but yes the my story is the [14:34] simple story that will be known to many [14:36] Americans as mugged by reality. Uh [14:40] essentially uh I grew up when the Labor [14:43] Party already began its transformation [14:45] into what was known as the peace camp. [14:48] The belief that the only thing that [14:51] stood between Israel and Middle East [14:54] peace was one more Arab state, a [14:57] Palestinian Arab state in Gaza and in [15:00] Judea Samaria, the West Bank. And um I [15:03] believed in that. I voted for every [15:06] Israeli prime minister that promised to [15:08] get us close to that and basically had [15:12] to contend with the fact that given the [15:16] opportunity and that's important given [15:18] clear concrete opportunities [15:21] both Arafat and Abu Mazin as leaders of [15:25] the Palestinian Arabs walked away from [15:28] clear concrete opportunities to have a [15:31] state to have independence to have [15:34] statethood followed it up with massive [15:36] violence and that led me to begin to [15:40] question uh my assumptions about what I [15:43] thought they wanted and through the [15:46] research that became the book the war of [15:48] return updated to October return after [15:50] October 7th um and through meetings with [15:54] Palestinians I had to unhappily come to [15:59] the conclusion that to their credit [16:02] they've always been consistent and clear [16:05] about what they wanted. No Jewish state [16:08] from the river to the sea. We just [16:11] certainly in the Israeli peace camp and [16:14] our allies in the west to the present. [16:16] You mentioned the rituals in the UN, we [16:19] either didn't listen or when we [16:21] listened, it sounded so preposterous [16:24] that we just engaged in something that I [16:27] called westpling. We explained it away. [16:30] We were like, it doesn't make sense. [16:32] They know it can't be true. No, they [16:36] don't know that. And I don't describe it [16:39] as an ideological change. I describe it [16:42] as mugged by reality, as contending with [16:45] reality. I explain to people that it's [16:48] not a matter of opinion. It's actually [16:50] one of the most empirically established [16:53] descriptions of the conflict [16:57] which by the way the Arabs don't even uh [17:00] challenge. [17:02] >> Now you you've said uh about the UNRA [17:06] all of that you've talked about Gaza. [17:08] President Trump has his you know 20 [17:10] point Gaza plan. There's lots of opinion [17:12] pieces floating around. What do we do [17:14] with the Palestinian refugees? What do [17:16] we do with uh Gaza? How do how do we [17:20] possibly [17:22] solve that? And you've put forward a [17:24] couple of solutions for that. Why don't [17:26] you talk about uh what your solutions [17:27] are to the ongoing Palestinian refugees [17:31] as well as uh the problems with uh Gaza [17:34] and continuing to navigate that whole [17:36] strip of land. [17:38] >> Certainly. So the whole idea of the [17:41] perpetual uh Palestinian refugees [17:44] against all international standards, the [17:47] idea that they possess uniquely what [17:50] they call a right of return. So the [17:53] right of millions they believe to settle [17:55] in another sovereign country against its [17:58] will. It's not a right that exists [18:00] anywhere in international law. Um those [18:04] are merely symptoms. their very uh kind [18:07] of dominant symptoms of what is the [18:11] traditional standard consistent Arab [18:15] position that has come to define what [18:17] I've now called Palestinianism. [18:20] The idea that it's always more important [18:23] to destroy what the Jews have built [18:25] rather than to build something for [18:27] themselves. [18:29] So um the only way to solve is to have [18:35] that ideology change. Uh and I compare [18:39] it to either deep ideological [18:41] transformations like that of Nazi [18:43] Germany, like that of imperial Japan. Uh [18:46] people call it dradicalization. [18:48] But the idea is very simple. You can be [18:51] Arab, you can be Muslim, [18:54] but that cannot include being [18:57] obsessively anti-Zionist [19:01] and that is the Palestinianist identity. [19:05] Today, unfortunately, and for the last [19:07] century, the Palestinian identity, the [19:11] way that it was created by the Arabs who [19:13] have essentially hijacked the name [19:15] Palestine is as an ideology of [19:18] destruction. It's not a normal national [19:22] or ethnic identity that wants to build [19:25] to create statethood or sovereignty [19:27] because if that's what they wanted a [19:29] constructive vision they would have had [19:31] it they want to destroy. So the only way [19:35] is to undermine the ideology and it's [19:38] important to understand that the [19:39] ideology doesn't exist in a vacuum. It [19:42] gets nourished. It gets sustained by [19:45] organizations like ENRA by indulging the [19:49] idea of perpetual refugeehood. So the [19:52] only way to begin to change the ideology [19:56] is to remove the fuel and oxygen that [19:59] allow it to thrive. It means that ENRA [20:02] has to be dismantled. It means that as a [20:05] condition of building anything in Gaza, [20:08] it has to be clear that no one in Gaza [20:11] is a Palestine refugee. Period. That's [20:14] weird. Why would you want to build for a [20:18] people who are telling you that they [20:20] want to destroy? How about you first [20:23] make sure that they want to build for [20:25] themselves and then by the way, they're [20:28] not going to need anyone's help. One of [20:30] the things that frustrates me is the [20:32] notion of the poor Palestinians. [20:36] October 7th should have ended that idea. [20:40] They are a capable people committed to a [20:43] terrible ideology. [20:46] They change the ideology. They can turn [20:48] their substantial capabilities to [20:51] constructing and building rather than [20:54] destroying. They actually don't need [20:56] help. The only help they need is people [21:00] no longer indulging them. People [21:02] actually telling them as with the Nazis, [21:05] as with the Imperial Japanese, it's [21:08] over. You lost your war to destroy [21:12] Jewish self-determination. [21:14] You can live next to the Jewish state, [21:16] not in its ruins. And until then, you [21:20] get nothing. So all the ideas I promote [21:23] are essentially in that vein. First [21:27] remove the oxygen and fuel from the [21:29] ideology only then anything else. [21:34] Hey, not I I really connect with what [21:36] you're saying, you know, especially [21:37] bringing up the comparison to Nazi [21:39] Germany and Imperial Japan. When we look [21:41] at those two examples where a genocidal [21:44] ideology, and they both were, uh, was [21:47] was those two nations became kind of [21:50] benign peaceful nations pretty quickly. [21:52] But what brought that about was [21:55] unequivocal defeat. And I don't just [21:57] mean defeat as and that doesn't mean [21:59] defeat as defined by the victors, but it [22:01] means that the that the defeated [22:04] acknowledged their defeat. And that was [22:06] that was Roosevelt's doctrine that he [22:08] announced I think in 1943 that the only [22:10] acceptable outcome of the war would be [22:12] unconditional surrender. And that I've [22:14] argued that that unconditional surrender [22:16] bringing them to their knees where they [22:18] admit that they've lost and forcing that [22:21] is itself a way to break the mindset. [22:24] So, can you talk now about the, you [22:27] know, obviously that's what you're [22:28] pointing at and again I've read your [22:30] stuff and I I I totally relate to this, [22:33] but let's get down to the policy level [22:36] with you're running to sit in the [22:38] Knesset and you want to bring your ideas [22:40] into the public space in a much more [22:42] powerful way. That's what this is all [22:43] about. So, in terms of moving the needle [22:46] on how Israelis, even even even Israelis [22:48] on the right who want quote unquote [22:50] victory, [22:51] talk about policies and and ideas that [22:54] you want to bring into the, you know, [22:56] into practice that the government is not [22:59] taking the right approach to that is [23:01] that they're not solving this problem. [23:03] Even if they're taking aggressive action [23:05] that looks like it's moving towards [23:06] victory, what are they missing at the [23:08] policy level that you would suggest? [23:11] >> Bingo. the best way to demonstrate it is [23:14] in Gaza. Um, in Gaza right now, you're [23:17] right, they have not acknowledged defeat [23:21] or to quote the book that I've been [23:23] using on Japan, they have not embraced [23:26] defeat. Um, and the as a result, we need [23:30] to find alternative ways to contend [23:33] them. And the way to do it is within the [23:36] 20point plan. The first line talks about [23:40] Gaza no longer being a threat. And what [23:44] Israel now needs to make clear under a [23:47] new government that can basically say, [23:48] "Look, our predecessors were not [23:50] sufficiently clear." When we signed that [23:54] Gaza will no longer be a threat, we [23:57] didn't mean Hamas putting their arms in [24:00] the nearby shed. We meant that the [24:03] ideology of the people is gone or at [24:06] least marginalized. [24:08] Uh and that and the equivalent of [24:12] surrender is what I mentioned. So Gaza I [24:17] say needs to be divided into three. [24:19] That's how you convey the message. One [24:22] part even if small and one that has no [24:24] one living there has to be annexed to [24:27] Israel. Why? Because one of the things [24:31] that sustains this conflict is that [24:34] every time that the Arabs go to a war of [24:37] annihilation and they rarely go to any [24:39] other kind and they fail [24:43] every single time rather than getting [24:45] the very helpful message that the Nazis [24:47] and Imperial Japanese got that they lost [24:50] and it's over rather every single time [24:53] they get the message of you didn't lose [24:56] your victory is merely delayed. So try [25:00] again and they are reasonable people [25:02] they try again. So one way to convey [25:06] that we're not going back to the square [25:08] one is to enex some of the territory to [25:11] say you have weaponized all of Gaza with [25:15] tunnels and peers and weapon stashes. [25:18] Gaza is never going to look the same in [25:22] terms of its territory. Message one that [25:24] helps to convey defeat. [25:28] The remaining part needs to be divided [25:30] into two. I call it the Gaza of war, the [25:33] Gaza of peace. The Gaza of destruction, [25:35] the Gaza of construction. The Gaza of [25:38] war should be the part that is still [25:40] governed by Hamas. And it should be [25:42] reconnected to Egypt so that Israel can [25:45] close its own borders. No supplies, [25:48] nothing from the Israeli side and say [25:50] these are people who have chosen war. We [25:52] have exactly zero commitment to them. [25:55] But above and beyond we have created [25:58] under Israeli control in the area that [26:00] is still Gaza but under Israeli control [26:04] uh the Gaza of peace to go there you can [26:08] essentially go through a process of what [26:09] I call individual surrender in the [26:12] absence of collective surrender. There's [26:14] no emperor there's no one to sign it [26:17] there will be individual surrender. What [26:19] does it mean? You show the receipts that [26:22] you've been removed from UNRA's [26:24] registration as a Palestine refugee, [26:27] something that Palestinianism holds [26:29] dear. In a public ceremony, you will [26:31] take the UNRA refugee card and you will [26:33] cut it. Again, I'm inspired here, but a [26:36] lot of the things that the Americans did [26:38] in Japan in order to create a change of [26:40] consciousness, you will get new [26:42] documents that will say no Palestine [26:46] from the river to the sea, only resident [26:48] of Gaza, new flag using the colors of [26:51] the sea and the sand, no flag of [26:54] Palestine. You will have to publicly [26:56] declare in the Arab culture, like a lot [27:00] of Eastern cultures, only things that [27:02] get said publicly are of value. You are [27:05] not a refugee. There's no right of [27:07] return. There's no from the river to the [27:09] sea. Gaza is your only home. And then [27:12] you will submit to a process of [27:15] dradicalization, [27:16] education. we can get the help of [27:19] Emiratis to create a proud Arab, a proud [27:23] Muslim identity that is not obsessively [27:26] uh anti-ionist. [27:28] And however long it takes, that has to [27:32] be the process. It's the only way for us [27:34] to finally break free from the endless [27:37] loop of war and reconstruction and war [27:41] and reconstruction that never touches [27:44] the core ideological problem. [27:49] I just have a quick followup. How how [27:51] does that how will that be navigated [27:54] amongst Israel's uh neighborhood, the [27:57] the other countries around uh taking [27:59] that stance? I'm imagining you're going [28:01] to run into some things with some [28:03] allies. I'm imagining you're going to [28:04] run into some stuff with international [28:06] law and obviously Israel has to do [28:09] what's necessary to protect Israel. Uh [28:11] but how would you how would you navigate [28:13] that on a foreign policy front? What [28:15] would you hope Israel's uh position [28:17] would be and how would you navigate [28:19] allies and enemies in that regard? [28:22] >> A there's nothing in what I said against [28:24] international law. Um B that is why I [28:28] think the Gaza of peace is so important. [28:32] Uh we I think what we have forgotten in [28:35] state craft in Israel is the importance [28:39] of always pairing a positive vision with [28:43] the harsh steps necessary to make it. [28:46] The genius of what the Americans did [28:49] before dropping the atomic bombs on [28:52] Japan is that they made it clear what [28:55] the positive vision is. The Potam [28:58] declaration highlighted the positive [29:01] vision that America has for Japan and [29:04] demanded surrender, but it was always [29:07] paired together. So what Israel has to [29:10] do with its neighbors, with the world, [29:13] is always pair the positive vision. We [29:16] want to live next to Arabs in Gaza who [29:20] want to build for themselves rather than [29:22] destroy what we've built. That's it. [29:25] Reiterate, communicate, endlessly repeat [29:29] the positive vision. Is it too much to [29:32] ask? To live next to people who do not [29:36] obsessively divert every ounce of [29:38] resource they get to our destruction. We [29:41] want to live next to them. We just want [29:44] to make sure that they want to build for [29:46] themselves rather than destroy what [29:48] we've built. That's it. Always always [29:51] pair the positive vision with the harsh [29:54] steps. [29:57] >> Well, I want to move on to another [30:00] topic, but I do want to push back on one [30:02] point and just allow you to explain. You [30:04] said that there's nothing in your [30:06] proposal that contradicts international [30:08] law. And article 51 of the Geneva [30:10] Convention does prohibit the seizing of [30:13] any territory even defensively which I [30:16] again admittedly I think is a is a very [30:19] foolish law and I think it's actually [30:22] caused more harm than good because evil [30:24] actors in the world have never faced any [30:26] consequences and I think that's why the [30:29] the West has not succeeded in in really [30:32] defeating evil ever since World War II. [30:34] I think actually the international law [30:35] and Geneva conventions are part of the [30:37] problem, but that's a bigger topic. But [30:40] how would you respond to that allegation [30:42] that what you're suggesting in terms of [30:43] annexation of territory is a violation [30:46] of article 51. [30:49] >> Uh so first I do remind everyone that [30:52] one of the ways that peace was secured [30:54] after World War II is by changing a lot [30:57] of territorial issues. But uh we here [31:00] benefit actually from the very kind of [31:03] some will call it gray some will say [31:04] it's not gray that the fact that uh [31:07] between the river and the sea the only [31:10] historic recognized sovereignty is [31:12] actually that of Israel as uh a a [31:17] continuing power to the mandate uh [31:20] borders and that the Arabs have never [31:23] essentially asserted sovereignty. uh you [31:26] can have 3,000 recognitions of [31:28] Palestine, but in the absence of an [31:30] alternative sovereign power, Israel [31:33] actually has legally what's called [31:35] underlying sovereignty. So, Israel can [31:39] very powerfully argue that it's actually [31:41] not taking uh foreign territory. [31:45] >> All right. All right. So now I wanted to [31:46] ask you about your party uh because I [31:49] know you started the O party uh with and [31:52] then you ended up as many and I' we've [31:54] explained the electoral process to our [31:56] audience. Our audience is mostly in [31:57] America, but we've explained the process [31:58] already in previous episodes about how [32:01] smaller parties will join together to [32:03] form a joint list so they can get across [32:05] the threshold. and you join together [32:07] with uh one of the leading economists in [32:09] Israel as well as Yoz Hendel who's uh uh [32:12] whose whose main issue is support for uh [32:17] is support for the reserveists who've [32:19] been fighting this war and everything [32:20] that is around those issues. Could you [32:22] talk a little bit more about this joint [32:24] list, about this party, what it stands [32:26] for, and what people need to know about [32:29] the issues facing the Israeli public [32:31] that this party seeks to address. [32:34] Certainly. Um I will say that after [32:36] October 7th, there was a moment in a [32:39] spirit that basically said, "Okay, we're [32:42] done dealing with kind of domestic uh [32:46] ridiculousness because we have real [32:49] enemies." And in many ways, that kind of [32:53] spirit finally broke a lot of kind of [32:56] the entrenched political and social [32:59] rivalries. Um you talked earlier, you [33:03] alluded to friendships uh being broken [33:05] and all that. One of the things that [33:07] moderates in Israel a lot of kind of the [33:11] global trends towards polarization is [33:14] that not only are we a very strong um [33:17] people and family oriented, we actually [33:20] have real enemies who occasionally [33:22] remind us that we are domestically not [33:26] each other's enemies. We may be [33:27] political rivals but we actually have [33:30] real actual enemies. Um so in that [33:34] spirit uh that's when I established the [33:37] O party. The idea is to finally talk [33:39] about what rather than the toxic [33:42] discourse of who and especially because [33:46] the what is so important. What are we [33:48] going to do in Gaza? How do we fight the [33:50] war globally of narratives? uh how do we [33:53] finally wisely address the Palestinian [33:55] Arab issue and unfortunately there has [33:59] been a kind of reversion to the old [34:03] political discussions [34:06] but uh my two uh kind of partners the [34:10] economics party and your oz handles uh [34:13] the reservists are the only ones that [34:16] have kept that spirit alive for the last [34:19] three years that we're going to focus on [34:21] what rather than who and uh you see that [34:25] as they describe how the Israeli seats [34:28] are divided between 120 members at least [34:32] in the polls we are polling at four [34:34] seats which is the minimum but we are [34:37] rising there's definitely clearly a [34:39] rising trend uh and we are the only ones [34:42] that are protecting that area of talking [34:45] about what universal service uh uh [34:49] making sure that the econ economy works [34:51] for everyone. Making sure I call it make [34:54] Israel smart again. Make sure that [34:56] Israel has smart state craft and uh and [35:00] that that is why we join forces. So we [35:03] kind we're kind of three single issue uh [35:07] fanatics that have come together to talk [35:10] about what the country needs rather than [35:13] who it needs. And uh that's what makes [35:16] us unique. And I think that's also why [35:18] we're getting more and more support by [35:21] people who are sick and tired of the [35:23] polarization and of the old discourse [35:26] about who [35:29] >> you mentioned earlier the positive needs [35:32] to be attached to everything and I love [35:35] that. Uh what is the positive vision? [35:38] You know in America we talk about the [35:40] American dream in uh in Israel what's [35:44] what's the Israeli dream? what happens [35:47] uh you know what's your big picture big [35:49] ticket item for kind of pushing uh all [35:53] of uh the agenda all the different [35:55] issues you know you can deal with [35:57] different problems but ultimately you [36:00] know there has to be an overarching [36:02] philosophy a hope if you will uh to to [36:05] lean on the Israeli national anthem you [36:08] know that there is a a hope in the heart [36:10] of every Israeli um what do you [36:13] communicate as the Israeli dream uh for [36:17] your constituents, for Israel? What's [36:18] your hope for children, grandchildren [36:20] for generations from now? [36:23] >> The Israeli dream is quite simple. It's [36:26] the dream indeed in the in our anthem of [36:29] being a free people in our land. The [36:32] idea of uh essentially uh the Jewish [36:35] people finally being masters of their [36:38] fate, free to be both individually and [36:41] collectively who they are. And the [36:44] bigger uh dream is for our neighbors and [36:48] our region is to also embrace that. I [36:52] have given that the somewhat provocative [36:54] name of Arab Zionism or Islamic Zionism [36:58] which I believe one day will exist. It [37:00] already exists today on a small scale [37:03] but I believe one day it will be greater [37:05] just like Christian Zionism uh came [37:08] about. So the idea that one can be an [37:11] Arab and a Muslim and embrace Jewish [37:14] self-determination from within Islamic [37:17] texts and Arab history is the very [37:20] long-term and positive vision. And uh in [37:24] many ways uh the way that the dreams [37:27] come together is that the Jewish people [37:29] have to we have to defend ourselves and [37:32] be strong and thrive until everyone [37:36] around us will also embrace the vision [37:39] of us being in their midst. not as some [37:43] foreign element that they feel that they [37:45] constantly have to violently push out, [37:48] but something that is the missing piece [37:50] of the puzzle that finally makes all of [37:53] us whole. [37:55] >> Well, I know that Doug was trying to [37:58] turn things very positive and that's all [37:59] very fine and good, but I'd like to [38:01] actually I'd like to ask you ask you a [38:04] little bit of a negative here. What are [38:06] some of your fundamental practical [38:09] policy disagreements with the current [38:11] government coalition? Things that you [38:12] really fundamentally disagree with their [38:15] approach and as get as specific as you [38:18] can here like what are the what are the [38:19] policy disagreements you have with this [38:21] government? [38:24] Oh, very easy. domestically uh the fact [38:28] that at Israel's uh kind of most [38:32] difficult moment they continued to [38:35] politically cooperate and bribe [38:39] political parties that essentially uh [38:42] looked to secure draft dodging for their [38:46] members is in my view as uh some [38:50] religious people have told me [38:53] um it is I think this is really uh an [38:57] abomination [38:58] >> in English. That's a desecration of [38:59] God's name. [39:01] >> Yeah. [39:02] >> Yes. To to send other people to war [39:06] while you are working to secure for a [39:11] group within Israeli society to continue [39:14] to dodge the draft. [39:17] No question. An abomination. That's [39:19] domestically. [39:21] uh outwardly [39:22] uh two main issues. Uh we could this [39:26] government continues to run away from [39:30] dealing directly with Palestinianism. [39:34] Uh it it has basically gone back to [39:37] square one of like okay we've dealt them [39:40] a blow now that gives us a few years of [39:42] quiet but it's not taking the [39:44] opportunity to do everything we [39:46] discussed here to finally change course. [39:50] uh and uh and globally I I basically [39:55] argue that the biggest mistake we did is [39:58] not understanding where the war is. uh [40:02] if I would say it in percentages I say [40:04] that about 30% of the war was physically [40:07] in Gaza and to that war we appeared we [40:11] fought we sacrificed [40:14] but 70% of the war which is the majority [40:18] took place here in people's minds on [40:21] screens with words with ideas and for [40:25] that war I argue we were a no-show and [40:29] my argument that is in today's world But [40:31] I think you know uh ancient thinkers [40:34] might say it's always been the case. [40:36] Wars are won here. Wars are won in the [40:42] field of the narrative of consciousness. [40:45] And you we talked about embracing defeat [40:47] about knowing that you lost. Those are [40:50] the things that we failed to address and [40:54] they actually continue to hamper us in [40:57] the physical world. Because if you fail [41:00] to show up for the war of words and [41:03] ideas, then ultimately you become [41:05] constrained in the actual physical uh [41:08] battlefield. And here uh we have been [41:12] criminally uh negligent. [41:14] >> And uh thank you so much for being on. [41:16] We know how valuable your time is. Uh we [41:18] know the election is coming up. Good [41:20] luck. And we are uh praying for all of [41:24] Israel as we always do on [41:25] shoulder-to-shoulder. And we're [41:26] believing for peace in Jerusalem. uh and [41:29] for the best days ahead for Israel. [41:31] Thank you for your time on [41:32] Shouldertoshoulder. [41:34] >> Thank you. And if I may just say a big [41:37] thank you because at this time when so [41:40] many are trying to isolate the Jewish [41:42] people in Israel in Zionism, [41:46] uh kind of resurrecting the most ancient [41:49] and dangerous idea that if only the [41:52] collective Jew, now called Israel or [41:54] Zionists did not exist, [42:00] that if only the collective Jew did not [42:03] exist, we would live in a better world. [42:06] >> Non-Jews who stand with Israel are [42:10] attacked even more savagely because they [42:14] have the numbers. You clearly are the, [42:17] you know, you have the numbers. And if [42:20] you stand with us, it's much harder to [42:24] get rid of the collective Jew on the [42:26] path to utopia. So, I want to say that I [42:29] know how hard it is and I want to just [42:32] say how much it's appreciated and [42:34] valued. So, thank you. [42:35] >> Thank you. It's a privilege. [42:38] And thank you for listening to today's [42:39] episode. If you enjoyed this episode, [42:41] please like, rate, share this podcast, [42:43] subscribe on Patreon, come on over to [42:44] Facebook, like our page, join our group [42:46] as we would love to connect with more [42:47] and more of our shoulder-to-shoulder [42:48] family. We'll see you on our next
