Transcript [00:00] person who's dehydrated and they're [00:03] drinking salt water. [00:06] And so maybe immediately you feel like [00:10] you're quenching your thirst, getting [00:12] some liquid in your mouth, but on a [00:15] cellular level, you're just [00:18] you're you're drying yourself out more. [00:20] [music] [00:21] Like we need to interact. And so, okay, [00:24] let me open up this app and go see [00:26] what's going on with all these people. [00:28] All these people. all these people feels [00:30] like human interaction, but it's not. [00:33] Like I said, get sick for 3 days and not [00:35] leave the house and see if the people [00:37] from Twitter show up with chicken soup [00:38] to your house. It's not happening. A [00:41] psychologist and rabbi walk into his [00:43] podcast studio. This is a conversation [00:45] that I was not ready for. Dr. Shira sits [00:47] down with Robbie Sha Tab, one of the [00:48] most unique, unbelievable, and popular [00:51] rabbis online. I loved where this [00:53] conversation started, and I loved even [00:55] more where it went to. They cover a lot. [00:58] Thanks again to OHL, one of the most [01:00] important organizations in the Jewish [01:01] world, and Turo College, the right way [01:04] to prepare for your future. If you [01:06] haven't subscribed yet, please do. It's [01:08] free, and it'll guarantee that you'll [01:10] get our monthly show straight to your [01:12] feed. [music] Now, here's this week's [01:15] episode. [01:15] >> Rabbi Tab, a pleasure to speak with you [01:18] today. A real honor, I should say. I was [01:20] looking at your Instagram. You have [01:22] quite a quite a following. [01:24] >> Yeah. Um, and [01:28] I think you're you're well known in many [01:30] areas. And I mean, I guess before we [01:33] even jump into anything, how did you get [01:35] into the mental health [01:39] sector? [01:40] >> I didn't. [01:41] >> You didn't? [01:41] >> No, I not I never did. I have no [01:44] intention on doing so. Um, but you're [01:46] not asking a dumb question. So, [01:49] [laughter] [01:50] how do I explain this? Okay. I [01:52] understand very well why many people see [01:55] me as someone who speaks to the issues [01:58] of mental health. That was never my [02:01] intention. Um I'm a rabbi. I'm not a [02:04] mental health professional for you know [02:06] full disclosure my father [02:09] rest his soul was a psychologist and I [02:11] did grow up around that. His books were [02:14] around and I [clears throat] my mother [02:16] was a speech pathologist my father was a [02:17] psychologist. I I heard that kind of [02:20] talk growing up, but I was never trained [02:22] in that area. No schooling, no no [02:25] certainly no degrees. Um I'm a rabbi. [02:27] That's what I am. Okay. [02:30] Obviously, everyone has their origin [02:31] story and they're influenced by [02:34] things, you know, that maybe even beyond [02:37] what they're conscious that they're [02:38] influenced by. But I never set out to [02:43] join a public discourse about mental [02:45] health issues. I set out to offer [02:49] spiritual guidance which is you know [02:52] that's what I'm trained for. I'm a [02:53] rabbi. [02:55] What happened is that in the course of [02:58] providing spiritual guidance, spiritual [03:00] clarity, spiritual teachings, [03:04] the way I was saying it was and not [03:06] trying to package it for a particular [03:08] audience, but just the way that I was [03:10] naturally saying it ended up resonating [03:13] with people who were coming from uh [03:17] various experiences of dealing with [03:21] different aspects of mental health. So, [03:23] it was more of like [laughter] I I know [03:26] it sounds unbelievable to people, but it [03:28] was almost like uh I was saying it I I [03:31] was putting out a message in the way [03:32] that resonates to me and my audience was [03:34] letting me know how it resonated with [03:36] them. You know, it was one of those [03:37] things you find out as it happens. That [03:41] make sense? [03:42] >> Yeah. Meaning the feedback ended up [03:45] driving you more, [03:46] >> right? Although I I don't think the [03:48] feedback drove how I packaged the [03:51] message. I continued packaging it the [03:53] way that I always had. It's just I [03:56] became aware of the fact, [03:58] >> oh, that's who my audience is. This is [04:00] who it's landing with. Meaning to say [04:04] >> I I always say to say to people I say it [04:07] as a compliment. I although I don't know [04:09] if people always take it that way that [04:11] if the algorithm shows you my content [04:14] like it says you you probably have an [04:16] interesting life. You like you've been [04:18] through your struggles. Maybe you're [04:19] going through a struggle. Like nobody [04:21] with a normal simple problemfree life [04:23] has Chase to coming up in their [04:25] algorithm. But I say that as the [04:27] greatest compliment, right? There's a [04:28] reason. Yeah, [04:29] >> there's a reason. So that actually leads [04:30] [clears throat] me, you know, into what [04:31] I've been thinking about, which is [04:33] there's been a lot of research the past [04:36] few years about what they're calling the [04:38] loneliness epidemic. M [04:40] >> um I think if I'm remembering my facts [04:44] correctly um a lot of the research from [04:47] like maybe 2023 around so a little bit [04:50] after co um really was showing that [04:52] around half of adults in the US [04:56] >> or more [04:57] >> have reported significant feelings of [05:00] loneliness of social isolation [05:03] >> and I'm curious [05:06] what you see [05:07] >> yeah [05:09] It's such an interesting time that we [05:12] live in because on one hand we're more [05:14] connected than ever before because of [05:17] the internet, because of technology. Um, [05:20] you used to live in a village and you [05:22] used to know 50, 60, 70 people your [05:24] whole life. I mean, up to like 100 years [05:26] ago, even someone who lived in a city, [05:29] they knew their neighborhood, right? [05:30] They didn't know everyone in the whole [05:32] city. Um, and now we interact with just [05:38] endless amounts of different people. [05:41] So, as far as like sheer numbers [05:43] quantitatively, we have we're [05:46] overexposed. I mean, it's almost like, [05:49] you know, they talk about compassion [05:51] fatigue like we hear about tragedies all [05:54] over the world. You know, it used to be [05:56] you would hear about a tragedy if it was [05:57] local. Now, we hear about anything that [06:00] happens anywhere. So on one hand [06:02] quantitatively we're way more connected [06:06] to way more people than ever before but [06:09] then qualitatively the question is how [06:11] deep are those connections? And I mean [06:13] the answer is obvious. They're they're [06:14] not deep connections. Um you know if [06:16] you're sick and can't leave the house [06:18] for 3 days all the people that you [06:20] interact with on Twitter and they're not [06:22] calling. They're not bringing chicken [06:23] soup. That's for sure. Right. [06:26] So [sighs and gasps] [06:27] it's an interesting time where we have [06:31] a lot more connection quantitatively [06:36] but a lot less qualitatively. The depth [06:38] of our connections is much less than [06:42] before. [06:44] Maybe even the fact there's that [06:46] disparity [06:48] between I'm having so much more quantity [06:51] but so much less quality that may even [06:55] emphasize that may even make the lack of [06:58] quality feel even more stark in [07:00] comparison or in contrast with the the [07:04] larger quantity of relationships. [07:08] I think that that's that's part of it [07:09] certainly. [07:11] Um, [07:13] you know, I I I posted something I [07:15] forget which social media platform, but [07:18] um about third places. I don't know if [07:20] you've seen some of the research on [07:22] that. More of like a sociology thing, [07:25] but don't know much about it, but the [07:26] idea of a third place, you have home is [07:29] one place and work is the second place. [07:31] Third places are things they're not [07:32] home, they're not work. Um they're like [07:35] neutral places, coffee shops, uh public [07:37] square, um [07:40] where people hang out and generally you [07:42] know place where there's a lot of [07:44] people. It there's no there's no high [07:46] barrier to entry. Not like you know a [07:48] like a club where you're spending a lot [07:50] of money but um you know like a a park [07:53] you know there's a lot less of the [07:55] malls. I mean I'm Gen X. I just turned [07:57] 52 last week so I remember the malls [08:00] were were full of people. Um [08:06] there's a lot less of that happening [08:08] today. You know, people buy things on [08:10] Amazon, so why should they go to the [08:12] mall? And there many different [08:14] iterations of that and different areas [08:15] of life. One thing I noticed [08:20] is, and I only noticed this in the past [08:22] year and a half. [08:25] I mentioned my father and I mentioned my [08:27] mother. So the previous year my father [08:29] passed away. This year my mother passed [08:33] away. So I've been in mourning. There's [08:35] Jewish tradition is there's a year of [08:37] mourning. Literally happened one after [08:39] the other. So I'm in my second year in a [08:41] row of mourning. And one of the things [08:43] customarily we do is uh say kadesh. [08:47] There's a prayer that we say. And some [08:49] people not only they say kadesh during [08:52] the the prayer services, but they lead [08:54] the prayer services. And as Jews, we [08:56] pray three times a day. And so that [08:58] means basically it's like catching a [09:00] flight three times a day cuz I have to [09:02] be on time for these communal prayer [09:04] services. And people don't realize, you [09:06] know, they look at me, they they see [09:07] rabbi, they they assume that I'm a, you [09:10] know, very comfortable shoogo. I'm not. [09:13] I'm not. I was I'm an introvert. I [09:15] struggle with public places. I was never [09:18] a big [09:20] I pray, but I like I don't like the [09:23] synagogue energy. It's just overwhelming [09:25] for me. And now I'm stuck. I'm forced [09:27] going three times a day. Right? So, a [09:29] friend of mine who also he lost his [09:31] mother last year and he he called me up [09:34] and he said this is really grueling [09:37] [clears throat] a rabbi colleague like [09:39] he's a spiritual guy. He it's not like [09:40] he has a problem with prayers or but [09:42] it's just the go the grind three times a [09:45] day going to these public services and [09:48] and he says why why is this necessary? [09:51] Why do we have to do this? [09:53] Why would why would the Torah want this [09:56] from me? And I said, I don't know the [09:58] answer to that, but I can tell you [10:00] personally what it's done for me. I [10:02] said, there's no question in my mind, [10:04] given my nature [10:06] and my introverted personality [10:11] that at this time of life when I'm in [10:13] mourning, there's no question in my mind [10:16] that I would isolate. [10:19] And there's no question in my mind that [10:21] it would probably lead to some type of [10:24] depressive cycle. And the fact that I'm [10:28] forced to be out and about multiple [10:32] times a day in the middle of the [10:34] activity of communal prayer of I could [10:38] pray to God alone and at at home. It's [10:40] not about praying to God. It's about [10:42] being forced to be among people. I said, [10:44] "Thank God I I am I It's so clear to me [10:48] how that has been [10:50] positive for my mental, emotional [10:53] health. Forget about the spiritual [10:54] benefits just mentally and emotionally [10:57] how what a lifeline that has been for [11:00] me. And I would never have done it on my [11:02] own cuz it's not my nature." So anyways, [11:06] talking about loneliness epidemic and [11:08] you know I think religious people are [11:12] like the last holdouts in this world [11:15] that we have of people. I can only speak [11:18] you know for the Jewish religious [11:19] community because that's that's the [11:20] community that I know. But like [11:24] it's it's very unusual what we have in [11:27] the Jewish religious community that we [11:30] do interact in real space. Um, what do [11:35] the kids call it? IRL in real life. [11:37] >> IRL, [11:37] >> right? IRL that we have so much IRL. [11:40] >> Um, way way way disproportionately more [11:43] than most of society today. [11:46] >> So, you know, if you want to talk about [11:47] loneliness epidemic, [11:48] >> totally. And, you know, I guess I'm [11:52] grateful that as part of the Jewish [11:54] religious community that we have sort of [11:56] a built-in antidote to that. Um, and I [11:59] guess what I would say here talking to [12:01] you in this public forum is I would [12:02] encourage other people to seek out [12:04] similar um outlets the way that the way [12:09] that we have it. You know, join a faith [12:11] community, go to a attend worship [12:14] services. I would really really strongly [12:16] suggest that not just for the spiritual [12:18] benefit. Like I said, you could pray to [12:20] God anywhere, but for the the social [12:22] component. And I'm not a social guy at [12:24] all and I'm saying this. Yeah. Well, I [12:26] think it it makes it all the more [12:27] powerful, right? Your your example is so [12:30] powerful in the sense of even just that [12:33] self-awareness. I I would isolate. I [12:36] would hermit myself. I would go into a [12:38] cave of grief and of loneliness and of, [12:41] you know, solitude and, you know, [12:44] sitting with my own feelings all day. [12:45] And um the fact that what you're saying [12:47] is that it almost doesn't give you the [12:50] option to [12:52] >> right maintains a certain health in in [12:56] the system. Um, I think that's that's [12:59] such a powerful example and I'm I'm [13:01] curious if there's any differentiation [13:03] either just from your experience or your [13:06] own um work in terms of ages and as well [13:10] as I guess you know what you're sort of [13:13] highlighting the religious [13:15] I would almost call it like the [13:16] religious spectrum. [13:18] >> Um [13:19] >> I'm even thinking of people who are [13:20] struggling with religion. Um [13:24] >> what what are your thoughts? [13:26] Yeah. [13:29] [sighs] You know, they say that one of [13:31] the things that holds people in religion [13:34] even when they're sort of internally [13:37] checked out a lot of times the way they [13:40] frame it negatively is social pressure. [13:42] But I could frame it positively also and [13:44] say there's an incredibly supportive [13:46] community, right? make no mistake like [13:49] and and I'm not blind to some of the [13:52] issues that we have as a religious [13:54] community, you know, the judgment and [13:55] pressure and things like that. That [13:56] that's real and I'm not afraid to talk [13:58] about that. But at the same time, [13:59] there's an incredible amount of support [14:01] and and connection and a lot of people [14:06] are afraid to leave that because they [14:08] look around and there's there aren't [14:12] similar [14:14] models that exist anywhere in society. [14:16] not in 2026. [14:18] Um, you know, may maybe in a bygone era, [14:22] you know, every every neighborhood had [14:24] their local watering hole and you go [14:25] down to the bar and it wasn't just like [14:27] drinking. It was more like socializing [14:30] and [14:31] you know you have your community or even [14:34] people what had like sports leagues and [14:37] that was more common or [14:40] the religious community really does [14:43] provide something that has become [14:46] increasingly rare [14:49] in the world today. [14:52] And uh [14:56] [sighs and gasps] [14:56] I if you would have asked me this [14:58] question two years ago I I would have [15:00] had a different point of view on it [15:01] because again because I am introverted [15:03] and I would have probably said well you [15:06] know there is a social aspect of [15:08] religion but it doesn't do anything for [15:09] me and I I don't personally I I don't I [15:12] don't make use of that perk right and [15:15] today I would say I do make use of that [15:16] perk begrudgingly. I hate it. It [15:18] stresses me when I'm out in public. I [15:20] come home and I collapse because I get [15:22] like exhausted just from human [15:24] interaction, but at the same time, just [15:26] because it's exhausting doesn't mean [15:28] it's bad for me. To the contrary, I I [15:29] know that it's good for me. Um, and like [15:32] you know, you were saying before about [15:33] how like I don't have the option like it [15:35] I'm you didn't say I was forced, but [15:37] yeah, I kind of am forced, right? I [15:39] think that's also healthy. Not just in [15:41] this instance and there's so many [15:42] instances of I think today people have [15:47] too many options. They make their own [15:49] rules and they decide what's right for [15:50] them and that freedom is very alluring [15:53] but they don't always as human beings we [15:56] don't always make the choices that are [15:58] best for us. And sometimes it's very [16:01] healthy to just have a higher authority [16:04] say no I'm sorry like this is what we're [16:07] going to do whether you like it or not. [16:11] That that's very healthy. [16:14] >> Boundaries. [16:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like when everything's an [16:18] option, then sometimes that's not not [16:21] good for us. [16:24] Keep things focused. You know, I the [16:27] labav is y site is coming up this week [16:29] and someone once asked him about all the [16:31] limitations of Jewish religion and he [16:35] said um it's like a laser you know a [16:39] light disperses it doesn't travel that [16:41] far but a laser because it's focused [16:45] then [16:48] travels clear [sighs] all the way you [16:50] know for far far distances that's the [16:52] idea of focus it's like it's like a [16:54] limitation ations help you to keep your [16:57] energy where you want it to go and not [17:00] just sort of dissipating out all over [17:03] the place. [17:04] Yeah. [17:08] It's also something that's lacking. And [17:10] maybe this is connected to the [17:11] loneliness epidemic. When you have the [17:13] options of connecting to everyone, [17:14] you're connected to no one. And I think [17:16] there's parallels in a lot of other [17:18] areas of life. [17:20] >> Absolutely. [17:21] >> Yeah. [17:23] >> Absolutely. And especially with social [17:24] media, um I question sort of how much of [17:29] this epidemic is linked to the rise of [17:34] social media. Obviously, co had an [17:37] impact. Um but how do you see social [17:39] media [17:41] impacting this phenomenon? [17:44] You know, it's almost like a person [17:47] who's dehydrated [17:50] and they're drinking salt water. [17:53] And so maybe immediately you feel like [17:57] you're quenching your thirst, getting [18:00] some liquid in your mouth, but [18:03] on a cellular level, you're just [18:06] you're you're drying yourself out more. [18:11] um like we need to interact and so okay [18:14] let me open up this app and go see [18:16] what's going on with all these people [18:18] all these people all these people feels [18:20] like human interaction [18:23] but it's not like I said get sick for 3 [18:26] days and not leave the house and see if [18:27] the people from Twitter show up with [18:28] chicken soup to your house and it's not [18:30] happening [18:32] um [18:34] so I think there's other issues with [18:36] social media as well like people [18:38] comparing themselves to others [18:40] competition ition and [18:43] looking at somebody's highly curated [18:45] fake version of themselves and then [18:47] coveting that. But one of the issues is [18:51] that I think it's a [18:56] loweffort substitute, but it's not a [18:59] real substitute um for something that is [19:02] a basic human need. And it satisfies [19:06] just enough that it feels like you don't [19:08] have to really go out and meet [19:10] [clears throat] that need in a [19:12] legitimate way. [19:14] Yeah. What do the kids say? Touch grass, [19:17] right? Get out and touch grass. [19:19] [laughter] [19:20] But the [19:21] >> something real. Yeah. [19:23] >> Have a real experience. Yeah. [19:25] >> It's interesting. Um, what you're [19:28] describing really explains a lot what I [19:30] hear very often in my work and my [19:33] personal life about social media use, [19:35] right? I can scroll for 2 hours not even [19:38] knowing that 2 hours have passed and [19:40] then find myself so empty. [19:43] >> Yeah. [19:45] >> Uh, and I think you just put beautifully [19:47] into words that exact feeling. You know, [19:51] I I heard this I don't know if he was [19:54] the originator of this, but I I heard [19:56] this from Richard Simmons. [19:58] I don't know if people know who he was, [19:59] but he was a television personality. He [20:03] was uh was a spokesman for the cause of [20:07] fitness. Um he was an interesting [20:10] person. Very very interesting person. [20:13] Anyways, I remember him saying [20:16] it was about overeating. you know, he [20:18] had been obese and then he lost weight. [20:21] So he said, "You can never get enough of [20:24] something [snorts] you don't really [20:26] want." [20:30] The fact that you you like you say, you [20:32] can scroll for two hours and the time [20:34] just flies by and you don't even realize [20:36] that it's happening [20:39] is precisely because it's not really [20:42] giving you what you want. Like if it [20:44] were I if it were able to hit the spot [20:46] if it were [clears throat] [20:47] emotionally nourishing [20:50] then you could have a nibble and you [20:54] could feel oh that that did something [20:56] for me. But the fact that it's pure junk [21:00] food [21:01] that's why you and another hour and [21:04] another hour and like there's no passage [21:06] of time because you you're not really [21:09] filling anything. So there's no end. [21:11] When when are you full? You're never [21:13] full. [21:15] Yeah. [21:17] Yeah. And then in the meantime, [21:20] because that's time, see, two things are [21:23] happening. Time that's wasted scrolling, [21:26] two things are happening. First of all, [21:27] you're not really meeting a need. So [21:29] that's a waste of time. But then two [21:31] other things are happening. One is [21:34] you're not actually interacting with [21:36] real people. [21:38] So that time is lost. Those those [21:39] opportunities are lost. And then another [21:42] thing, no one I I don't I don't hear [21:44] people speaking about it. I shouldn't [21:45] say no one speaks about it. I haven't [21:46] heard people speaking about it. [21:48] We actually do need downtime. I think [21:51] it's very important for people to have [21:53] decompression time, spacing out, veging [21:56] out. I I don't think that's laziness. I [21:58] think some of us need it even more than [22:00] others. Like I say, when I go out and [22:02] I'm out and about among people, I come [22:04] home and I collapse because I I just [22:06] need to. [22:08] If you do your decompression time while [22:12] scrolling, you don't really get the [22:14] benefit of that decompression either. [22:17] It's it's kind of like, you know, [22:20] sleeping, but you've got like the radio [22:23] on and like, you know, like, so you're [22:25] not fully sleeping, but [22:28] so it's like decompressing, but you're [22:30] not really decompressing. You're you're [22:33] you you're looking at [22:36] different images which the algorithm has [22:38] primed to be like rage bait and like uh [22:42] getting you know triggering you. It's [22:44] trying to you know that's how it keeps [22:45] you engaged. Just trigger trigger [22:46] trigger trigger trigger. That's not [22:48] relaxing. That's not decompression. [22:51] So you know there we are. We're not [22:54] meeting our social need and we're also [22:57] not meeting our relaxation needs. [22:59] >> Right. [23:01] Yeah, I'm a big big proponent for at any [23:05] time in the day that it thought even [23:08] occurs to you, put your phone down, take [23:10] a drink of water, and take a walk around [23:12] the block. Just anytime you think of it, [23:15] even if you don't think you need it, [23:16] just if it pops into your mind, put the [23:19] phone down, take a drink of water, take [23:20] a walk around the block. What's the [23:21] worst that's going to happen? You're [23:22] going to waste 10 minutes. You [23:24] [laughter] could you could easily waste [23:26] 10 minutes on the phone. [23:29] >> It's so true. And I, you know, I'm I'm [23:31] sort of hearing a theme in the sense of [23:33] we as people don't always do what works. [23:36] We don't really do what works for us. [23:38] >> No. [23:40] See what we do and we don't. Life is [23:43] such a paradox and humanity is so [23:45] paradoxical. On one hand, you know, I I [23:49] come at it from a faith perspective that [23:50] God designed us really ingeniously and [23:54] we have great survival mechanisms. And [23:57] that's why a lot of times when you look [23:58] at people's behavior that makes no [23:59] sense, if you look at it closely enough, [24:01] you'll realize it originated in some [24:03] type of survival mechanism. So that's on [24:06] one hand and we could talk about more [24:07] more of that, but on the other hand, [24:09] sometimes we don't do things that make [24:12] sense and it's not [24:15] it's not helpful for like we're our own [24:17] worst enemy. Now, how do I reconcile [24:19] those two things? Because they are both [24:20] true. Um the way I reconcile is pretty [24:23] simple. A lot of the most dysfunctional [24:26] stuff that we do originated in a [24:29] survival impulse, but the survival [24:31] impulse exceeded its functionality. So [24:34] in its origins, it's a god-given [24:37] mechanism to keep us alive. And and and [24:41] and if we would have left it at that, it [24:44] would be superbly efficient and [24:46] productive. But what happens is it [24:48] exceeds its functionality, becomes a [24:51] focus unto itself. So, you know, if I [24:55] have this built-in mechanism that [24:56] reminds me to eat so I don't starve to [24:58] death, that's great. If that mechanism [25:00] exceeds its functionality and tells me [25:03] to start obsessing constantly on food, [25:06] and now I thought of this special uh [25:08] bobka that I want to eat, now I'm [25:09] driving 30 minutes out of my way cuz I [25:11] need to go to the special bakery that [25:12] sells that bobka and now it becomes an [25:14] organ organizing principle of my life [25:16] and I'm spending my whole life on this [25:18] hamster wheel of getting all the yummy [25:20] food. Well, now it's not helping me [25:24] live. It's interfering with my ability [25:27] to live. Right? So, it originated with a [25:30] god-given survival mechanism. It [25:32] exceeded its functionality and it became [25:36] counterproductive to life. [25:38] >> But that's why uh that's so a lot of [25:40] these things like for instance, let's go [25:42] back to the social media. Where did the [25:44] original mechanism come from? Our basic [25:48] need to connect with others, right? But [25:50] then if we don't have a real way of [25:53] doing that, so we search for a [25:57] substitute and then that becomes a [25:59] pattern and patterns become comfortable. [26:02] Um, something about human beings, we [26:04] don't like to forge new neural pathways. [26:07] We like the familiar. There's something [26:08] comfortable. You know, I guess it's like [26:10] a well-worn pair of shoes neurologically [26:12] speaking. And uh then we're we get [26:15] caught in the pattern even though it's [26:17] like it's no longer serving the original [26:19] purposes it was supposed to like it's [26:21] far from serving any productive purpose. [26:23] But now we're now we're stuck now not [26:26] really stuck because we can get out of [26:28] it but without a lot of self-awareness [26:30] you know if we're just going to go [26:31] passively. Yeah. We're stuck. Yeah. [26:35] >> Yeah. [26:36] [laughter] [26:37] >> Yeah. [26:39] >> I agree. [26:40] >> Yeah. That's that's why, you know, we [26:44] need these discussions because just left [26:46] to our own devices [26:48] without reflecting on any of this stuff, [26:51] we're not going to make the best [26:52] choices. So, we do need to have [26:55] discussions like this and call things to [26:56] our attention and stop once in a while [26:58] and evaluate and just ask, you know, how [27:00] much are my habits and my routines [27:02] serving something productive? Um, [27:07] yeah, I you know, you you hear the [27:08] criticism a lot. um you know this [27:12] generation they're so obsessed with [27:13] their mental health and we didn't have [27:14] these problems and I have many answers [27:17] to that but one answer just one answer [27:21] is well just because you're not paying [27:23] attention to something doesn't mean that [27:24] it's not happening [27:26] and [27:28] a lot of the self-awareness that exists [27:30] in this generation [27:32] is simply about stopping and taking [27:36] stock and just asking a question like [27:39] how How much is this productive? How [27:41] much do I want to do this? How much am I [27:43] doing this just cuz I've always been [27:44] doing it? And how much do I actually [27:47] want to continue this cuz there there [27:48] there's a purpose to this, you know, and [27:50] I think that's [27:52] that kind of self-reflection is is [27:54] necessary for a productive life. We'll [27:56] be right back to this episode, but first [27:58] I want to tell you about O's counseling [28:00] services, which provide a supportive [28:02] space to work through challenges, [28:03] strengthen relationships, and grow in [28:05] every area of life. at O. Therapy isn't [28:08] just for when something feels seriously [28:09] wrong. Sometimes it's about having [28:11] someone to talk to or gaining a new [28:13] perspective or working through a [28:15] difficult season or simply becoming the [28:17] best version of yourself. All's mental [28:19] health experts take a whole person [28:21] approach which means recognizing that [28:23] our emotional, physical, and spiritual [28:25] well-being are all connected. As Rabbi [28:27] Ta and Dr. Schwarz shared, "In a world [28:29] where so much of our communication [28:31] happens through screens, there's [28:32] something so powerful about sitting face [28:35] to face and connecting with another [28:36] person, O's mental health experts create [28:39] a safe, supportive environment where you [28:41] can be heard, understood, and encouraged [28:43] to move forward. Whether you're [28:44] navigating stress, relationships, life [28:47] transitions, or simply looking to make [28:49] positive changes in your life, O offers [28:51] counseling for children, teens, adults, [28:54] couples, and families. O's in-person [28:56] counseling locations are conveniently [28:58] located in Flatbush, Faraca, and [29:01] Hillrest, Queens. And for those looking [29:03] for connection and community, O also [29:05] offers a variety of support groups [29:07] focused on personal growth through [29:08] shared experiences. With compassionate, [29:11] personalized support, O helps people not [29:13] only address challenges, but strengthen [29:15] the many areas of their lives that [29:17] contribute to overall well-being. To [29:20] learn more about O's counseling services [29:22] and support groups, visit ofamily.org or [29:24] or call 1 800603 [29:27] which is 1 8006036435 [29:31] O counseling services support for where [29:34] you are and encouragement for where you [29:36] want to go. Now, back to this episode. [29:38] >> And as a psychologist, I feel like [29:40] that's really the point where many [29:42] people find themselves in therapy when [29:46] that awareness comes into life and says, [29:50] "Something I'm doing is not working for [29:51] me." [29:52] >> Right? [29:52] >> Um, right? Something has gone out of [29:55] balance. Something is, you know, not [29:59] having me live the life the way I want [30:01] to be living my life. [30:02] >> Right? [30:02] >> And there's so much more open to it. [30:05] open openness to that now than than [30:10] maybe there ever was. [30:11] >> Sure. [30:12] >> Um, [30:14] yeah, there's a lot more to say on [30:17] the generation of [30:20] this mental health. [30:21] >> My question for you would be, I know [30:23] you're interviewing me, I'm not [30:24] interviewing you, but I I have [30:27] >> I have an insatiable urge to always find [30:29] out more. I I I like I like to learn. I [30:32] hate to talk, actually. I don't like to [30:34] listen to myself. [30:35] It's ironic. [30:36] >> Ironic. I [laughter] know. [30:38] >> When people come to you and they say [30:40] something's not working, [30:43] >> do they know what's not working or [30:45] they're just aware something must not be [30:47] working cuz I don't feel right, but I [30:49] don't know what it is that needs to be [30:51] adjusted. [30:52] >> More often than that, [30:53] >> yeah, they don't they don't know what's [30:54] wrong. [30:55] >> Not nec Yeah, very often not. They don't [30:58] very often people don't have a sense of [31:00] you know this is really my the core of [31:04] where things are not working and this is [31:05] what I want to work on. It's it's very [31:07] often a lot more messy than that. [31:10] >> Right. [31:12] Do they even sometimes misattribute it [31:14] like I think it might be [31:16] >> for sure [31:16] >> and they're looking in the wrong [31:17] direction [31:18] >> for sure. What how do you steer somebody [31:21] when they're thinking, you know, well, [31:23] this is my problem and you're thinking, [31:25] well, not really. That's a red herring. [31:27] That's a distraction, [31:28] >> right? Well, I think it actually [31:30] connects so much to what we're talking [31:32] about because [31:34] so much of it, you know, and we can [31:36] we're not going to go into all the [31:37] modalities and the frames and, you know, [31:39] I think it's it's a lot more broad than [31:44] many people give it credit for, which is [31:46] really, [31:48] you know, this idea of I want to help [31:50] people do what works for them. [31:51] >> Mhm. you know, if if doing drugs and [31:56] partying all the time and you know, a [31:58] certain lifestyle, if it works for you, [32:01] go for it. You know, it's really when [32:03] it's not working for you. And maybe [32:05] there's we could call that a [32:06] misalignment in values. [32:07] >> We could call it, you know, sometimes [32:09] very often a communal pressure that [32:11] doesn't feel right to me or I don't [32:14] really believe in what I'm doing or [32:16] right. Again, we couldn't even call that [32:18] values. Um, [32:19] >> yeah, [32:20] >> but I think values are a huge part of [32:21] it. And I think really this idea coming [32:24] back to what we're talking about of [32:25] being able to do what is going to be [32:29] most [32:31] healthy actually I I recently heard the [32:34] term um secure functioning and I and I [32:37] like that a lot. Okay. Um right the term [32:39] sort of how can I securely function as [32:42] an adult right healthy not healthy is [32:45] even a little bit more uh we can argue [32:49] um but I want to I want to function. How [32:51] do you understand? How do you [32:53] distinguish between healthy functioning, [32:56] healthy versus unhealthy as opposed to [32:58] secure functioning and I guess the [33:00] opposite would be insecure functioning, [33:01] >> right? [33:03] >> Why is secure functioning for you a [33:06] better term? [33:07] >> Mhm. So, I think I think the word [33:09] healthy uh can often have a sense of [33:13] stigma in it or [snorts] uh [33:16] even a sense of judgment, right? You're [33:19] I don't know [33:21] I'm just trying to think of an example. [33:22] Maybe [33:24] smoking weed. [33:25] >> Okay. [33:26] >> Right. A few times a day. [33:27] >> So, you said something that I think most [33:29] people are going to be shocked by [33:30] >> and they're going to be even shock more [33:32] shock that I'm reading their minds, but [33:35] they're going to be more shocked that I [33:36] just let it slide. When you said if [33:38] somebody's partying and whatever and [33:40] that's what they like, it's working for [33:41] them, more power to you, you know, go [33:43] for it. And I was like, yeah. Now, I [33:45] didn't explain why I agree with that. I [33:47] do agree with that. Um, but I have to, [33:49] you know, qualify that. But [33:52] explain I I mean, I'll give you my [33:54] explanation after I hear yours. But so [33:57] let's say somebody has this, you you [33:59] picked randomly, you know, so someone's [34:01] smoking weed. That's that's what they're [34:02] doing. Okay. So you might say that's [34:04] unhealthy. Okay. But you're saying [34:07] that's not as useful to you as saying is [34:08] it secure or insecure. [34:11] Explain to me the difference. So I think [34:14] secure goes beyond just an individual in [34:18] the sense that there's a [34:22] there's a network almost [34:25] >> um right and I mean really the context [34:27] that I heard this term in was in a [34:29] couple's therapy context. So, right, as [34:32] a couple, as a unit, as a family unit, [34:34] as a, you know, a larger than myself [34:37] sort of picture, right? Is this working? [34:39] If I'm smoking weed, I don't know, six [34:42] times a day, and I feel like it's [34:44] working for me, I can still do my job. I [34:47] can pay my bills, right? That's one [34:49] thing. But if, you know, my husband's [34:51] over there saying, you know, you're not [34:54] doing any of the things that I need you [34:55] to do. You're not showing up as a [34:57] partner. or right whatever it is or the [34:59] family members or children or right [35:01] that's when I think we sort of have to [35:02] look beyond ourselves and I think that's [35:05] really what it comes down to with people [35:07] is you know is this working um [35:11] >> Uhhuh. So your [35:15] >> refers to the the system around you [35:18] >> I would say. So that's how I see it [35:20] [clears throat] personally [35:22] >> like not just is this working for you. [35:25] If you zoom out is this working [35:30] in all of the ways in all of the areas [35:33] that you are in touch with that you [35:36] affect and that affect you. [35:41] >> Right. [35:43] So earlier you when you said you know [35:46] somebody's making I guess I can use the [35:48] term unhealthy choices because [35:52] that's kind of how you're defi defining [35:53] healthy and unhealthy but um [35:58] they are insisting but this works for me [36:01] and you're saying okay fine no problem [36:03] and I agree with that. [36:07] Why do you say [36:09] it doesn't interest you or you're not [36:12] particularly motivated to try to [36:14] convince somebody [36:16] that something isn't working for them if [36:18] they insist that it is? Because I have [36:19] very strong feelings about this. What [36:21] what what's your point of view on? [36:24] >> It's a great question. Um, [36:28] you know, I think that I think that we [36:30] as people automatically own [36:33] our own judgments, our own, you know, [36:38] even even I myself as a as a [36:40] psychologist, I have my own religious [36:42] beliefs. I have my own standards of [36:44] living. Um, and almost like who am I to [36:47] say this doesn't work for you? [36:50] >> Right? And and I think that question [36:51] also is loaded in and of itself like [36:54] what does it mean to be working for you, [36:55] right? It it needs to really work for [36:57] you, right? You're you're fulfilled. You [37:00] feel content in your life. Um you know [37:03] there's a certain we could say that you [37:06] live with that really [37:08] >> there aren't these gaping holes. And I [37:10] think very often people will say it's [37:12] working for me when it's really not [37:13] working for them. Right? So there's also [37:15] that [37:15] >> distinction. You're going to refrain [37:16] making a judgment is what it's [37:18] >> or I'll deepen it with them. Right? I'll [37:19] I'll try to really understand. Is that [37:21] true? Right. Is it true? [37:22] >> Right. Is it Is it really working for [37:24] you? Let's let's understand. Right. [37:25] Let's let's dive into some of your [37:27] relationships. [37:27] >> But you're saying for you it's coming [37:29] from humility. Like I'm not going to I'm [37:31] not going to be the arbiter to determine [37:33] if it's working for you or not. [37:35] >> And I can't be the, you know, the judge [37:38] of someone else's [37:39] >> life. [37:41] So it's interesting. Somebody just came [37:43] over to me the other day and said, "Why [37:45] did you say that therapy is amoral?" [37:48] Okay. I think it was a Instagram reel [37:50] from like a year ago [37:52] >> and I did say it but I remember also [37:55] writing it in an ammy column. I think I [37:57] wrote it more than once. I got it from [37:59] my father. My father may rest in peace [38:02] was a psychologist and a religious Jew [38:05] and he explained to me that by [38:07] definition now there's a difference [38:08] between amoral immoral. Immoral means I [38:10] know the difference between right and [38:11] wrong and I choose wrong when it's [38:13] expedient and I don't care. [38:16] Amoral means I'm not concerned with [38:18] questions of right and wrong. [38:20] >> Okay. So he told me that [38:24] therapy, the culture of therapy [38:27] is amoral and that's what clinical [38:29] detachment is. Like who am I to make a [38:33] moral judgment about your life? And he [38:37] told me that's not Torah. Torah makes [38:38] Torah is about morality. We make [38:40] judgments. and he for a while I think [38:44] went through a conflict like how did he [38:46] balance his professional capacity with [38:49] his religious beliefs. Um, see, as a [38:53] rabbi representing Torah, I I I can't be [38:56] amoral. I have to be concerned with [38:58] morality. And nevertheless, when you [39:00] said, "If it's working for you, okay, [39:02] fine." And I was like, "Okay, yeah, I I [39:03] I agree." I I I come at it a slightly [39:07] differently because and I like the way [39:10] you're saying like for you it's about [39:11] humility. It's about like who am I to [39:13] judge? And on a personal level, I agree [39:15] with that because who am I Sha Sta to [39:17] judge? Like I'm no greater than you. I'm [39:19] no greater than anyone. Now, on the [39:21] other hand, I'm a rabbi. I represent [39:23] Torah. Torah does have moral judgments. [39:25] That's what Torah is. And nevertheless, [39:27] I agree with you. But here here's why. [39:31] And I learned this also from my father. [39:35] The biggest waste of time is trying to [39:38] fix a problem for somebody or even with [39:40] somebody that they don't agree is a [39:42] problem. [39:44] If they don't agree it's a problem, [39:46] there's absolutely no point in trying to [39:50] convince them that it is. So, if someone [39:52] comes to you and says, "This is my [39:53] lifestyle and I'm 100% fine with it." [39:57] You are wasting your breath trying to [40:00] convince them that there's a problem. [40:02] And in fact, my experience has been the [40:06] more you try to work on solutions for [40:08] something someone does not yet recognize [40:10] as being a problem, you're you're [40:12] nodding even before you say say finish [40:14] the sentence. [40:15] >> I mean, 100%. [40:17] >> The more what what happens when you try [40:19] to fix it before they're ready, [40:21] >> the worse it gets, the the deeper their [40:24] feet get stuck in the ground, [40:26] >> the the the longer the timeline of [40:28] eventual [40:28] >> healing. You're you're prolonging the [40:30] process of prolonging the process [40:32] >> 100%. [40:32] >> Yep. [40:34] >> Yep. [40:36] >> And I think that's part of you know [40:38] what, you know, I think when I'm saying [40:41] there's no who am I to judge, right? [40:44] That's not, you know, without the the [40:47] real caveat of really, [40:50] you know, putting out all the cards on [40:51] the table and saying, you know, are we [40:54] are we sure that this is working, right? [40:56] And really, you know, I mean, for sure [40:58] in my work as a psychologist, [41:00] understanding, you know, okay, you're [41:03] smoking weed six times a day, you're [41:05] also telling me you can't focus on [41:07] anything, right? So, is there something [41:09] that could be different here that might [41:11] feel even better for you? Right. There [41:13] there is a lot of depth of work, which [41:16] actually is making me want to come back [41:18] to what you were saying a little earlier [41:20] about depth in relationships. And I even [41:22] want to say like depth in people, right? [41:24] How can we how can we cultivate [41:27] facilitate [41:29] um create that depth in in people that [41:35] curiosity about themselves? [41:40] Yeah, you're going even deeper. You're [41:42] saying it's not just the people don't [41:43] have that quality of depth in their [41:46] interpersonal relationship. they they [41:48] may not even have it internally in their [41:52] relationship [41:53] >> with themselves [41:56] and that's because we're highly [41:57] distracted so we don't go deep. [42:01] I I mean I have often [42:04] told people how [42:07] grateful I am for for Shabas as a Torah [42:09] observant Jew. [42:12] Um [42:13] being [42:15] forced first of all to drop technology [42:17] but also you're not able to work. You're [42:20] not supposed to be involved in anything [42:22] mundane meaning anything that's [42:25] worldly anything that's workrelated. [42:29] And [42:32] it's it's supposed to be a time [42:36] for spiritual reconnection. And part of [42:39] that means just quiet time with [42:42] yourself. [42:44] Shabas is supposed to be a time for [42:48] being able to be with your thoughts, [42:54] stepping away from all of the [42:56] distractions. [42:59] Um, but I think people are so [43:03] dependent today on their distractions. [43:05] And I even see like [43:07] because it's so scary to be [43:09] distraction-f free. [43:12] See a lot of times even on Shabas in a [43:15] way that's technically permissible, but [43:17] people just keep the distractions going. [43:21] Um, [43:23] a lot of the I and I want to be careful [43:25] how I say this cuz I'm I know that I'm [43:28] coming at this with a personal bias [43:30] against it because it because I've told [43:33] you about my personality. I think a lot [43:35] of the socializing that happens on [43:37] Shabas is is is not nourishing. I think [43:41] it's real distraction. [43:44] Um, [43:46] it's like here's this day when we have [43:48] an opportunity examine our lives deeply [43:54] and instead there's just [43:57] a lot of [44:02] lot of shallow connection [44:05] and it's it's it's it's a shame. It's [44:07] it's such a wasted opportunity. [44:12] Yeah. [sighs] [44:15] Yeah. [44:18] And I know that people people who hang [44:21] out at the kiddish and they socialize [44:23] and maybe even they drink and I know for [44:27] a lot of people that's something they [44:28] they look forward to all week long and [44:30] and I'm not and again who am I to judge? [44:32] I'm not saying it's wrong. Just saying [44:34] if okay great do that but also do you [44:37] have some time for reflection? you also [44:40] have some time for re reflection. [44:44] We don't reflect. How many people today [44:48] like I I'm I'm actually curious. I don't [44:50] know if studies have been done on this, [44:52] but I wonder how many people today are [44:55] capable [44:56] of thinking [44:59] for an hour. [45:01] Just thinking for an hour. I don't mean [45:02] reading where somebody is giving you [45:04] thoughts to think about. Although that's [45:06] certainly I think more takes more mental [45:10] muscle than scrolling. But I'm saying [45:14] without even a book, without a podcast [45:16] going, without anything, just sitting [45:19] with your thoughts for an hour. I think [45:21] that was normal. I think once upon a [45:23] time, that's what people did. I also [45:26] think when people many more people were [45:29] involved in manual labor, what do you [45:31] think they did? you know, you're sitting [45:33] at the the the potter's wheel or or or [45:36] the loom. [45:37] >> Mhm. [45:38] >> You know, turning butter or whatever you [45:40] were doing, [45:41] >> you were thinking. you were thinking and [45:43] now today it's like [45:46] somebody was saying to me the other day [45:48] he's like I he says I I can't remember [45:52] the last time I got into an Uber and the [45:57] driver didn't have like a headset and [46:00] was in the middle of a conversation [46:03] and [46:05] and he he pointed out to me I started [46:07] realizing like so true and you you start [46:11] thinking like what are these people [46:12] doing? They're driving all they're [46:14] driving around all day. I'm not even [46:15] talking about the distraction from [46:17] driving. I I'm talking about the [46:18] emotional uh the just the the the [46:23] dependency [46:25] that what do you have to have an 8 hour [46:27] WhatsApp call going because God forbid [46:31] without it you might have to sit there [46:34] with your own thoughts. [46:38] [sighs] [46:42] I think this is I think it's a a global [46:45] issue. I think [46:48] 2026 [46:52] everybody is is suffering from this. [46:54] Like when's the last time even go on a [46:57] drive and don't have a phone call, don't [47:01] listen to a podcast, [47:03] just drive. We can't even do that. [47:08] And so then you talk about one of the [47:10] effects is people don't examine their [47:12] own lives. Yeah. Sure. Sure. That's [47:15] obvious. I mean, we see that. You see [47:17] that. [47:22] I I think there's going to be a big [47:24] push. I think there's going to be a [47:26] pendulum swing. It's going to happen. [47:28] And it's not going to be because of an [47:30] awareness campaign. It's not going to be [47:32] because people are going to come out [47:34] with public service announcements. Put [47:35] your phone away. I think it's going to [47:37] happen spontaneously and there's going [47:39] to be like this revolution. We're going [47:41] to be like, "We're sick of this. We're [47:43] sick of this. Like not going to be a [47:45] slave to this." [47:48] You know what's interesting? So, [47:52] I used to do a lot of public speaking. [47:56] Um, I used to travel a lot. Frequent [47:58] flyer on several airlines, constantly [48:01] flying around, speaking engagements a [48:03] lot. That was my bread and butter. That [48:04] was like my main thing. [48:06] And it's interesting, you know, you talk [48:08] about my like my Instagram for instance. [48:10] I only started an Instagram account like [48:12] right before co [48:13] >> Wow. [48:14] >> Like I think it was like 2018 maybe that [48:16] I started it. I didn't know that. But um [48:20] I think it was 2018. [48:23] Before that I used to travel, go to [48:26] speaking engagements all the time, [48:28] multiple times a week, different cities, [48:30] different countries. [48:32] Then there was co there was a lockdown. [48:34] It all stopped. People stopped doing [48:36] public events. People were scared events [48:38] would get cancelled. You know, they [48:39] didn't know the local regulations. [48:42] And then everything became permissible [48:45] again. You can make an event, but nobody [48:46] wanted to, you know, let's do it on [48:48] Zoom. Why do I have to get out of my [48:50] pajamas? You know, like, why do I have [48:53] to go to a place? and all the speaking [48:56] engagements sort of. It was funny cuz I [48:58] didn't plan it this way, but when I [49:00] started to blow up in social media, [49:01] thank God because I had something to [49:02] keep me busy because all the speak [49:04] engagements went away cuz people just [49:06] don't do as many events. [49:08] >> Mhm. [49:09] >> My prediction is [49:12] real life events are going to make a [49:13] huge comeback. People are going to [49:16] People are going to get sick of screens [49:18] and they're going to say, "If it's Zoom, [49:19] I'm not doing it." No, I'll do it if [49:21] it's real life. We can if there's food. [49:23] If we can sit across from each other and [49:25] there's food and there's real life, I'm [49:27] there. You know, if it's Zoom, no, not [49:29] doing it. And not because they're [49:31] protesting. It's just going to be a [49:32] natural thing that's going to happen and [49:34] it's going to be very very healthy. [49:37] [snorts] [49:37] >> And and human beings crave [49:41] real life connection. I think that's [49:45] that's also, you know, something that [49:49] I mean I personally feel is true. Um [49:53] it's a it's a human need [49:56] like you said before [49:57] >> real life connection real life [49:58] experiences in physical spaces [50:01] >> in real time. [50:02] >> Mhm. [50:03] >> You know there's something today like [50:06] for instance [50:07] just as we as I was coming up the stairs [50:10] and uh I we'll give a little behind the [50:12] scenes over here. So I saw our friend [50:15] Yakov Langer and I said to him I'm in [50:18] the middle of watching your Lucas Gage [50:19] podcast right now which is incredible. [50:21] Okay. [50:23] But you know what? I [50:25] If this were [50:28] a bygone era, you know, the era of [50:31] television, [50:33] you know, [50:35] where it's on and then it's over and [50:37] then that's it. You don't know when [50:39] there'll ever be a rerun. I would have [50:41] had to stop everything else I'm doing [50:43] and finish watching it. [50:45] >> I have the luxury now. It's a 2-hour [50:47] podcast. It's incredible. I stopped an [50:49] hour in. I said, 'I'll watch the rest [50:51] later. Now, as interested, first of all, [50:53] as interested as I am, I don't even know [50:54] if I'll watch the rest later because [50:56] life will because living will put out [50:59] another podcast then I won't watch. [51:00] Okay, but I'm saying there's a loss of [51:03] urgency like yeah, I I'll watch it [51:06] later. But then we carry that attitude [51:08] over to so many other things. Yeah, I'll [51:09] do it later. Yeah, because nothing is [51:11] happening in real space in real time. [51:14] So, it all gets deferred. [51:16] It all gets deferred. I'll do it later. [51:19] And that's one of the it's one of the [51:22] beautiful things about digital [51:25] experiences that you can pause and you [51:28] can start and you can do it anywhere and [51:30] you know I'll finish watching it on the [51:32] plane right that that that's there's an [51:35] advantage to that but on the other hand [51:38] it's like no there has to be certain [51:41] things like if I'm going out for coffee [51:44] with someone I don't get to say oh you [51:46] know what let me pause this and I'm [51:48] going to go do something else and I'll [51:50] come back in in an hour and see if [51:51] you're still sitting here. [51:52] >> Right. [51:53] >> Like there's a commitment. You're [51:55] [laughter] [51:56] you're here. You're you got to see this [51:57] thing through to the end. [52:00] >> Yeah. And we don't have that today. And [52:03] I think there's a lot of issues that we [52:07] have that we don't realize stem from [52:09] that. [52:10] As I'm talking to you, it's occurring to [52:12] me even I've been thinking about this [52:13] for years, but even as I'm speaking to [52:14] you, I'm realizing the extent of it. I I [52:18] haven't fully appreciated. [52:21] >> We don't sit with ourselves. We don't [52:24] sit with what we're doing. [52:26] >> We're in a we're in an age and a life [52:29] where things move so fast, [52:32] >> so quickly [52:34] >> like you're saying, things come out so [52:36] content [52:37] >> changes over so quickly. [52:39] >> Um it's really remarkable. And [52:44] >> if you thought this episode started, get [52:46] ready for the next part. But first, who [52:48] hasn't faced financial stress, family [52:50] struggles, or health challenges? 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[54:08] >> You know, I think maybe this can be even [54:10] a challenge for the audience, but just [54:13] to, you know, find something to sit with [54:16] >> and and sit through it, right? and, you [54:20] know, maybe try to avoid the urge to [54:22] pick your phone up or, [54:24] >> you know, dive your brain into something [54:27] else at the same time, whatever it might [54:29] be. Um, we don't we don't do that [54:32] >> or it's hard to do that. [54:35] >> You know, in addition to, you know, you [54:37] spoke about [54:39] IRL experiences with other human beings [54:41] and then you then you went into with [54:43] yourself, I also want to recommend uh [54:46] physical projects. [54:48] I have [clears throat] [54:50] [snorts] this house the center half a [54:52] block from the Iel Obama chab of his [54:54] resting place. I'm coming there from [54:55] there right now. Actually I was giving [54:57] my weekly uh class live stream. Um it's [55:02] interesting by the way why I have that [55:03] physical place because I'm such an [55:05] introvert. When I blew up on social [55:08] media, I had this perverse like [55:11] excitement where I said, "I'm so big on [55:13] social media, I'll never have to go [55:15] physically to an audience again." And [55:18] the second I had that thought, I [55:19] realized like, what did my soul come [55:21] into this world for? Why am I in a body [55:23] to have a like to be like a brain in a [55:26] jar, like a disembodied soul, just no, [55:28] you have to have physical. You have to [55:30] have IRL. You have to So, I got that [55:32] physical place and we have events there. [55:35] But that's not even what I'm talking [55:36] about. In the backyard, I started doing [55:39] gardening. [55:40] >> Wow. [55:40] >> Just today, I was checking on my [55:41] jalapenos. [55:43] >> How they doing? [55:45] >> Well, it's touch and go, but God [55:47] willing. Okay. [laughter] Pray for my [55:48] jalapeno uh garden. [55:52] >> First of all, my hands get dirty. I'm [55:54] touching soil. [55:56] But also, you can't fast forward it. You [55:59] can't pause it and you can't fast [56:00] forward it real time. But the real time [56:03] the rhythm of nature like the growth of [56:05] a seed. I have fruit trees that I [56:07] planted uh a year and a half ago and I'm [56:10] like watching them and each season and I [56:13] prune them and I'm aware of when is the [56:15] winter solstice so I can do the winter [56:16] solstice prune pruning and and you can't [56:20] fast forward it. You can't pause it. [56:24] It forces you to be in objective time [56:30] and and I think it's I can't even put my [56:33] finger on why it's so healing, but it is [56:36] healing like nothing else that we can [56:39] experience through all it's the the [56:43] techn the technical breakthroughs like [56:45] technological breakthroughs we have. I I [56:47] don't want to like pret I don't want to [56:48] pretend like I'm not grateful for it [56:50] because it's amazing. Look, I can tell [56:52] you personally, I've been able to [56:54] inspire millions of people in a way that [56:57] if if I were doing this even 10 years [56:59] ago, I would not have been able to do [57:01] that. So, I'm grateful for technology. [57:05] But, you know, gardening, [57:09] h what else? I don't know. [57:12] Walking to places as your [57:13] transportation. [57:15] Um, I don't know what else. What other [57:18] some IRL stuff that's [57:20] >> That's a good question. [57:22] By the way, taking care of animals, too. [57:23] I'm a big believer in that. [57:25] >> Kids. [57:26] >> Oh, [laughter] [57:28] having families. By the way, that's a [57:30] thing you see today with w with with Gen [57:32] Z. Like, it all goes hand in hand. They [57:35] don't want to have families. They don't [57:36] want to raise kids. What's the point? [57:38] >> Yeah. That's the big one. I'm talking [57:40] about plants and animals. [laughter] [57:42] Kids. How about some kids? Yes. Yes. [57:44] Yes. [57:45] >> Art. I mean, there's [57:46] >> art. Yeah. Yeah. Cooking. [57:51] Cooking. Yeah, [57:52] >> absolutely. Creating. [57:54] >> Creating stuff. [57:55] >> Creating. [57:56] >> Also, there's another thing about [57:57] creating. [58:00] >> We use these apps to consume, consume, [58:02] consume, consume, consume. [58:05] Not healthy to be always on the [58:07] receiving end. We need to create. I [58:10] mean, for me, I try to create like a [58:12] ratio of like 10 to one. Like for [58:14] everything I consume, I try to create 10 [58:16] things. [58:19] So creating, but also not just creating [58:21] because you could create digital [58:22] content. It's not the same as creating [58:24] something physical. [58:26] >> We didn't even think it was going to [58:28] connect when you first came in that [58:29] you're starting a cooking show. I hope [58:31] it's okay that [58:32] >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. [58:33] >> And this is a a plug, but you know, [58:36] after people watch your your episodes, [58:37] the the challenge will be go home and do [58:40] it yourself and maybe with someone else, [58:43] maybe uh a friend, uh a child, a [58:46] partner. [58:48] By the way, some of the best parent [58:50] child bonding is in the kitchen. Really, [58:53] it's a great way to bond. And don't be [58:56] sexist and think I'm just talking about [58:57] mothers and daughters, [58:59] fathers and daughters, fathers and sons, [59:02] mothers and sons, all the different [59:04] combinations. Cooking together is so [59:09] it's a it's you're cooperate. You're [59:11] cooperating and you're communicating and [59:14] you know there's banter in between and [59:16] then in the end you have that something [59:17] you created and you taste it together [59:19] and this feeling of accomplishment. [59:21] Great bonding booking. Booking is Yeah. [59:26] Yeah. [59:28] any other practical [59:31] advice or thoughts you have either on [59:33] the individual or communal level of what [59:36] people can [59:38] can do to connect on a deeper level. [59:45] >> Yeah. [59:47] You know, it's interesting. Jewish [59:50] people are called people of the book. [59:54] And you know, normally, at least me, I [59:57] think about it. It's like, oh, we're [59:58] very studious. [60:01] But that's not what I think it means, [60:03] cuz then we could be called people of [60:04] wisdom. A book is a physical thing. [60:08] There's something tangible, something [60:10] physical. [60:11] You know, God gave Moses the tablets of [60:15] stone. It's like it's physical, has [60:17] weight, has dimension. [60:20] And yes, you know, there's the oral law [60:22] which is infinite and all the depths of [60:24] the teachings and that's also important, [60:27] but it's grounded in [60:30] the written law which is physical [60:34] and they you know the tablets were kept [60:36] in the in the ark and the holy of [60:37] holies. If you go to the holy of holies [60:39] in the center of it all in the the the [60:42] the most sacred spot on earth and what [60:45] is there? this physical object engraved [60:49] in stone. [60:55] I speak a lot about um sensitive souls. [60:58] It's a term that I use [61:01] uh to describe people who [61:06] are struggling with embodiment because I [61:08] think a lot of issues that we describe [61:10] with other models, not to take away from [61:12] the two things can be true at the same [61:14] time, but a lot of issues that we [61:17] describe using other models, I I can [61:20] more conveniently, at least for me, [61:21] conveniently understand them in terms of [61:23] sensitive souls who are struggling with [61:24] embodiment [61:27] in in in In in brief, all souls are [61:30] sort of um foreigners in the physical [61:34] world. We're not from this world. We're [61:36] from another realm. [61:38] But most people seem to acclimate rather [61:41] quickly and they become used to being [61:43] physical beings to the to the to the [61:45] extent that they identify primarily with [61:47] their physical uh container. And then [61:50] there are certain people who just never [61:53] really acclimate. And these are the [61:56] people who are always sort of struggling [61:58] with life. Um, a lot of them have [62:00] sensory issues, you know, because just [62:02] overwhelmed by all the stimuli that the [62:04] body is picking up on. Highly sensitive, [62:08] uh, you know, empathic very often [62:10] picking up on energy. And [62:14] so [62:16] a lot of these people have this desire [62:20] to leave the physical world. [62:22] And it freaks people out. It sounds so [62:24] morbid. What? I want to die. No, I don't [62:26] want to die. It's just I I don't want to [62:27] be a soul in a body. I want to be I want [62:29] to go back home. Right. I describe it as [62:32] being homesick for a place you can't [62:33] quite remember. [62:35] Uh a lot of addicts, you know, are [62:37] basically self-medicating. This [62:40] condition of of inherent restlessness of [62:42] just feeling, you know, out of out of [62:45] sorts. And you ask, well, what's so bad [62:47] about your life that you have to [62:48] self-medicate? No, there's no it's not [62:50] conditional. It's not circumstantial. [62:52] It's existential. existence itself is [62:54] painful for me. Um, [62:58] and like the only real [63:01] resolution [63:04] is [63:06] to find [63:08] meaning in embodiment. [63:10] This has been my big focus. I'm 52. I [63:12] had a birthday last week. [63:14] >> Happy birthday. [63:15] >> Thank you. And definitely [63:17] definitely since I turned 50. But [63:19] definitely the past two years, but even [63:21] starting a couple couple years before [63:23] that, I've really really been focusing [63:26] on this idea of embodiment, [63:29] the importance of it, the inherent worth [63:32] of it. Like God did not make a mistake [63:34] when he sent your soul to this world. [63:37] Souls were not meant to remain in [63:39] heaven. They were sent here for a [63:41] purpose. And and we're not supposed to [63:44] escape it and dumb ourselves from it. [63:47] We're supposed to inhabit it and and be [63:50] present in it and loose it and and sober [63:53] for it. Um [63:57] so I I've become very aware of [64:01] everything that helps ground us. Like [64:03] sometimes I I I have a group called Soul [64:05] Survivors. It's a monthly group. We get [64:07] together. We meet sensitive souls. I [64:09] call it soul survivors. S O L because [64:11] usually soul survivors s o l e like the [64:13] one and only survivor. This is s o u l [64:16] soul survivors. Souls who are struggling [64:19] to [64:20] survive this embodiment experience. You [64:23] know, like they say, we're not uh human [64:24] beings having a spiritual experience. [64:26] We're spiritual beings having a human [64:27] experience. So, we have this monthly [64:28] group called Soul Survivors. [64:31] And you want to check it out. It's it's [64:32] a subscription thing, but I'm not trying [64:34] to sell it here, but it's [64:35] soulwords.org/soul [64:37] survivors. Um, and we speak a lot about [64:42] being integrated, like inhabiting our [64:44] embodiment. And one of the things I [64:46] speak to them a lot about is acts of [64:48] goodness and kindness. Because for a lot [64:49] of us, we get into our heads. We love [64:52] ideas. [64:54] And it's really important to get into [64:56] our bodies. So that's acts of goodness [64:58] and kindness. [65:01] Like like I was saying before, if you're [65:03] sick for three days, people from Twitter [65:04] don't bring you the chicken soup. [65:05] >> Okay? Be the one who brings the chicken [65:07] soup. Inhabiting your body means be the [65:10] one who brings the chicken soup or [65:11] attending each other's happy occasions. [65:14] For years, I did not attend a happy [65:16] occasion [65:18] because I hate being in public. Then I [65:21] realize how spiritually important it is. [65:23] H showing up to places. [65:26] um [65:28] sharing meals, you know, as Jewish [65:30] people, we have it built in a lot, you [65:33] know, chabas meals, holiday meals. [65:37] Um but like that's really important. [65:39] Sitting at the table, eating food [65:41] together, [65:44] the physicality of it is what gives it [65:48] its its its power. [65:52] spending time [65:54] in in in proximity. [65:57] I'll tell you an insight that I had and [66:00] I'm wondering how much you'll relate to [66:02] this. [66:03] So, I'm known as a communicator [66:06] like I guess I've away with ideas and [66:09] words, right? And that's to me how I for [66:13] a very long time at least how I perceive [66:16] my value. What value do I bring to any [66:18] given situation? I'm smart and I'm [66:20] eloquent, right? And if I wouldn't be, [66:22] people wouldn't have me around. [66:26] And um [66:28] I like I told you, I'm 52. I only [66:31] realized in the past couple of years [66:36] how consistently [66:38] I was under the impression that people [66:40] needed my words. They needed me to be [66:42] profound. They needed me to have an [66:44] insight. I was under that impression. [66:47] And the reality is [66:50] they just needed my physical presence. [66:54] And I wasn't doing that because I didn't [66:57] value it. I didn't value it. In fact, to [67:00] the contrary, not only I didn't value, I [67:01] I I rejected it. What? So stupid. I'm [67:03] going to sit here in your Why Why are we [67:05] sitting? Why? If I have something [67:08] profound to say, then I have value. If I [67:11] don't, why why would you even want me to [67:13] Why would you want me to be around? And [67:15] I had to realize like [67:19] sitting there in silence is not [67:22] doing nothing. Like sometimes that is [67:27] the most healing thing you can do. It's [67:29] just and you have to be physically there [67:31] for some reason. I don't know why it's [67:34] that way but it's just to be present [67:37] and you don't have to have some genius [67:41] insight. You're just there. And that [67:44] could be incomparably more healing than [67:47] all the fancy words. [67:50] You know what I'm talking about. [67:51] >> I more than know what you're [laughter] [67:52] talking about. I live what you're [67:54] talking about. [67:55] >> That's what I suspected. [67:56] >> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I [67:59] think it's even, you know, I can say it [68:01] about the field that I'm in, but I think [68:03] even just human beings in general, we [68:05] don't we don't give ourselves enough [68:08] credit for just being and how powerful [68:12] it is for us to just be present with our [68:16] kids, with [68:17] >> our friends, with whoever it might be, [68:20] just to just to be there, just to [68:22] listen, just to show up. [68:25] It's almost like I don't want to give it [68:27] a number, but I would say like a high [68:29] percentage of what truly is is needed. [68:34] >> Say showing up. I have a very dear [68:37] friend who told me this years ago [68:40] said you could fake caring, but you [68:43] can't fake showing up. [68:47] And that hit me so profound because [68:51] caring is intangible. It's like it's a [68:53] feeling. How do you prove a feeling? [68:56] You could trick someone to thinking that [68:58] you feel something that you don't feel. [69:00] Or let's not say you don't feel it at [69:02] all, but you could make them think that [69:03] you feel something more than you really [69:05] feel it. Right? Of course, how would [69:07] they know? They can't read your mind. [69:09] But you can't fake showing up. It's [69:11] binary. Either you did it or you did it, [69:13] >> right? [69:13] >> Either you were there or or or you [69:15] weren't. [69:16] And I started to realize something so [69:21] about physical showing up that is so [69:25] powerful. You can't half show up. E [69:28] either you did or you didn't. Either you [69:30] were there or you weren't. [69:32] Mental, emotional, energy like they [69:35] fluctuate and they're in flux and [69:37] they're even in the course of one [69:40] conversation there could be es and [69:43] flows. But physical presence is [69:46] constant. You're there the whole time [69:49] you're there. And [69:53] I think there's something [69:57] that we as ironically enough as [70:01] spiritual beings [70:03] I think we as human beings are primarily [70:05] spiritual beings. There's something as [70:07] spiritual beings that we require in [70:10] physical experiences. [70:14] And we cannot get that nourishment from [70:17] spiritual experiences. You what do I [70:20] call spiritual? I mean an idea. An idea [70:22] is not material. An idea is intangible. [70:24] Right? Where does an idea exist? [70:25] Nowhere. Not in the not in time space. [70:27] It's a [70:30] it's energy [70:32] and ideas are you know I love ideas and [70:34] I spend my whole my whole career is [70:36] about developing ideas and [70:38] communicating. Beautiful. Beautiful. But [70:41] the real power [70:43] is in physical [70:46] presence, [70:51] being able to sit in the same room with [70:52] someone you care about and not having to [70:55] talk. [70:58] And I don't know if it's a lost art, [71:03] if there's less opportunities for it or [71:06] we're doing other things. [71:09] But uh just because we don't know how [71:12] important it is doesn't mean we don't [71:14] suffer from the lack of it. You know, it [71:16] affects us. I'm saying us collectively, [71:19] humanity today, we're we're all sort of [71:22] collectively [71:23] suffering from the lack of these [71:26] physical experiences. [71:29] I I'm the first one to admit it because [71:30] I don't naturally value it. I don't. [71:35] And it was a it was a it was something I [71:38] learned. It's hard for me. It was maybe [71:42] for some people it's it's natural. Not [71:44] natural for me. It was a it was a real [71:48] epiphany for me. [71:50] >> And like you mentioned before, I'm I'm [71:52] hopeful [71:53] that it's going to turn. [71:55] >> Yeah, it's got to got to. [71:57] >> I think we are I think we are headed in [72:00] that direction. [72:02] I hope we are headed in that direction. [72:05] >> What's interesting is, you know, so I [72:07] know we're heading in the direction [72:09] because as Jewish people, we believe in [72:10] Messiah. [72:12] Interesting. What is Msiah? translated [72:15] Sia. What What does that mean? [72:19] Messiah [72:21] is this physical world in its perfected [72:25] state. [72:26] It's not heaven, [72:29] not going to a spiritual realm. It's [72:32] this realm, [72:35] perfection of this realm. [72:39] to the extent that we're even told that [72:43] the dead will come back to life, which [72:46] is a very powerful idea. The dead, that [72:49] means souls that are in heaven. [72:51] But when the physical world is [72:53] perfected, there will be something [72:56] so alluring that it'll draw these souls [73:00] out of their blissful heavenly [73:03] experience. Don't get me wrong, they [73:05] they're loving it up there and yet [73:08] they'll be magnetized to come back to [73:10] their embodiment because there'll be [73:11] something about the physical plane that [73:13] is so alluring. [73:18] >> Interesting. [73:20] >> And it's also that's that that era in [73:23] history, the messianic era is called an [73:27] entire an era of entirely shabas. It's [73:32] like it's like the day of Shabas but [73:33] it's a whole era. So if you think about [73:37] it like that that means Shabas [73:40] is a day similarly that is although it's [73:43] spiritual we tend to think oh it's a [73:45] spiritual day it's actually a very [73:46] physical day the day for being present [73:49] and embodied. [73:52] >> It's an analog day it's not a digital [73:54] day it's an analog day. Mhm. [73:57] >> So, you got any uh homework for people [74:00] if they want to [74:02] >> I was about to ask you that question. [74:04] [laughter] [74:07] >> Gardening. [74:08] >> Gardening. [74:09] >> Yeah. [74:09] >> Cooking. [74:10] >> Cooking. [74:11] >> It sounds to me like the homework is [74:14] find something to challenge yourself to [74:16] be really present in and see how that [74:20] affects you. [74:22] >> Just notice. [74:23] >> Just notice. [74:24] >> Yeah. [74:25] doesn't necessarily have to be with [74:28] other people that too, but [74:30] >> could be watching a podcast till the [74:32] end, [74:35] >> right? That might be like a, you know, [74:38] transition like training wheel, right? [74:40] >> Like it's a podcast, so it's digital. [74:42] But [74:43] >> I'm not going to leave the room. [74:44] >> I'm not going to pause [74:45] >> and I'm not going to pause and I'm not [74:46] going to do 1.25 speed, [74:48] >> right? I'm gonna act like it's the 80s. [74:50] I'm [laughter] [74:54] >> Yeah, I like that. [74:56] >> Any other final thoughts, wisdom? [75:01] Um, I appreciate the opportunity to talk [75:04] about these things [75:07] to examine it a little bit more deeply. [75:12] I'm 100% positive that [75:15] we couldn't have or personally I the [75:18] insight that I gained from my [75:19] conversation with you could not have [75:20] happened if it was emailing back and [75:22] forth. [75:24] It had to be a in-person experience [75:29] and we encourage people to have [75:31] in-person experiences, real life [75:32] experience, IRL experiences as much as [75:34] possible. [75:36] >> I agree. This is a very enlightening and [75:40] inspiring conversation for me and I [75:42] thank you for being here and for your [75:44] wisdom [75:46] >> and I hope the audience [75:50] >> feels that as well. [75:51] >> This episode was a ride. Please leave [75:53] the word wow if you watched or listened [75:56] to the full episode. Now be sure to [75:57] check out Rabbi Ta's social media, his [76:00] website, his courses, and thanks again [76:02] to Turo and Oh. If you'd like to suggest [76:04] a guest for our podcast, you can on [76:06] living.com. More conversations that [76:09] needs enlightenment and to be discussed [76:11] coming your way. So, hit that subscribe [76:13] button and [music] stay safe. And also, [76:17] living
