Transcript [00:12] Hi friends and welcome to 1840 where [00:14] each month we try to explore a new topic [00:16] balancing modern sensibilities with [00:18] traditional sensitivities to give you [00:20] new approaches to timeless Jewish ideas. [00:23] I'm your host David Bashkin and today we [00:26] are exploring a basic primer emphasis on [00:29] basic on the Israeli elections. This [00:33] podcast is part of a larger exploration [00:35] of those big juicy Jewish ideas. So be [00:38] sure to check out 1840.org. That's [00:40] 18frty.org [00:41] where you can also find videos, [00:43] articles, recommended readings, and [00:44] weekly emails. This is going to be a [00:47] very short intro because I don't have [00:50] that much to say about politics, [00:52] especially politics in Israel, except [00:55] for the fact that I know that it's very [00:57] confusing and kind of every time that [01:00] there's an election, I feel like I want [01:02] someone to explain it to me like I am a [01:05] 2-year-old. Like, just get back to [01:07] basics. We don't normally address on [01:10] 1840 politics. I'm actually very proud [01:12] of the fact that at 1840 what we are [01:16] focused on is Judaism and the Jewish [01:19] people. That's really it. Yiddishkite, [01:21] that's what really animates me and what [01:23] I like to talk about most. However, I do [01:25] think especially now we need to [01:27] sensitize ourselves and make sure that [01:29] we understand what is happening in [01:32] Israel because no matter where you live, [01:34] what happens in Israel affects the [01:36] entirety of the Jewish people. And what [01:38] I wanted to do was give a very basic [01:40] primer almost like a more condensed [01:42] focused what are the basics of Israeli [01:45] elections? What's like the history of [01:47] how they've divided politically and what [01:49] is the choice in front of Israelis right [01:52] now? And that is why I am so excited to [01:55] introduce somebody aside from being a [01:57] great educator and explainer is somebody [01:59] who has been immersed in Israeli [02:01] politics as a journalist. It is my [02:04] absolute privilege and pleasure to [02:06] welcome back to 1840 our friend Lahav [02:09] Harkov. [02:12] >> Thanks for having me on the show. [02:14] >> Thank you so much Lahav. Is really a joy [02:16] to have you and I wanted to begin with a [02:19] very basic question. Let's start with [02:23] how Israeli elections work. Most people [02:26] at least in the United States have an [02:28] idea about how our elections work. They [02:31] might think they know, but we have an [02:33] electoral college. We have a vote [02:36] specifically for president. I don't want [02:38] to get into American elections. Take me [02:40] through how are Israeli elections [02:44] structured and what exactly are people [02:46] voting for in an Israeli voting booth? [02:50] >> So, I always like to start this [02:52] explanation in the voting booth really. [02:54] Um, so when you go to your polling [02:56] place, which is often a school, when you [02:59] arrive, you have to show ID. that is not [03:01] controversial in Israel. All adults in [03:03] Israel are supposed to carry ID and have [03:05] it at the polling place as well. You [03:07] walk into the voting booth and there's a [03:10] table with a tray on it. The tray is [03:12] divided into sections. Each section is a [03:14] little pile of paper papers like around [03:17] the size of a post-it note um [03:19] representing a party. So, right now [03:22] there's more than 30 parties running [03:24] which is actually normal. [03:25] >> That's normal. Okay. Yes. And you [03:28] usually, you know, you know your party [03:30] name, you know the abbreviation. There's [03:31] actually a little sign that tells you [03:33] what the abbreviation is for each party, [03:35] but usually you don't have to look at it [03:36] if you're prepared. And you take your [03:38] piece of paper, you put it in an [03:39] envelope, you come out of the booth, and [03:42] in front of the committee of people who [03:44] are, you know, running that polling [03:46] place, you drop your envelope into a [03:49] ballot box. So it's it's paper voting by [03:51] paper. You might have noticed that I [03:53] said that you pick a party, right? So [03:54] you're not picking Natao or Eisenot who [03:57] are the leading contenders for prime [03:59] minister. If you're a minimally informed [04:01] voter, you'll know who the leader is of [04:03] the party that you want to vote for. If [04:04] you're a more informed voter, you might [04:06] know some of the names of the people who [04:08] are in that party who are, you know, on [04:11] the slate to be in the Kessa. And then [04:13] when the votes are counted, any party [04:15] that gets less than 3.25% of the vote, [04:18] which is called the electoral threshold, [04:21] they don't get into the Knesset. So in [04:23] the 15 years that I've been covering [04:25] Israeli politics, usually you have 10 to [04:28] 12 parties in the cassette. After that [04:30] point, after you eliminate the smaller [04:32] the parties that didn't get enough [04:33] votes, the 120 seats of the cassette are [04:36] divided up proportionally between the [04:38] parties. Now, um I'm going to put you on [04:40] the spot with trivia that you might [04:43] know. [04:44] >> Why are there 120 seats in the cassette? [04:46] >> After the years of Mosher, [04:51] >> nuhuh. Is that really why? [04:52] >> That's why and they've never changed it [04:54] even though the population of Israel is [04:56] a lot bigger. [04:57] >> I really love that anakadola [05:01] of 120 which I think is the gamura in [05:04] Shabus. [05:05] That is very very beautiful. I actually [05:08] really really love that 120 seats is the [05:10] overall Knesset and you get your seats [05:12] based on the proportion of the vote so [05:14] long as it crosses the electoral [05:16] threshold of 3.25%. [05:20] >> Exactly. Now, nobody in Israel's history [05:23] has ever gotten a majority on their own. [05:25] >> A party who has 61 seats in the Knesset, [05:28] >> right? That has never happened, which is [05:31] why there's always a coalition, right? [05:33] So, back in the day, in the good old [05:36] days of the 60s and 70s, you could have [05:39] a coalition that was just two parties. [05:41] Not really the good old days, but things [05:43] are a lot better in Israel now in many [05:45] ways. But have a coalition of two [05:47] parties. That was better because that [05:48] was more stable. But um today you could [05:52] have you know five six parties in a [05:54] coalition easily. [05:55] >> And that's such an important point [05:57] because it's the reason why for so many [06:00] why Israel is always like they're going [06:02] back to elections. They're holding [06:03] another elections when a party pulls out [06:06] of that majority. Does that trigger [06:08] another election right away or do they [06:10] have a little bit of time to try to get [06:12] another party in? [06:13] >> There's time to negotiate. You could try [06:15] to get another party in. You could also [06:17] kind of sometimes stumble along for a [06:20] bit longer, which is what happened [06:21] really with Netanyahu in the last year. [06:24] Um, because the Fared parties were like [06:27] sort of one foot in, one foot out of the [06:29] coalition in the last year. The only way [06:31] that you could really kick out a [06:32] government, and this has been the case [06:34] for like 30 years or so in Israel, is if [06:37] a majority of the Knesseta votes to [06:39] install a different prime minister. So [06:41] even if the majority they they have [06:43] what's called a no confidence vote. Even [06:45] if a government loses a no confidence [06:47] vote, meaning most of the Kessa says we [06:48] don't have confidence in the prime [06:50] minister, that prime minister still [06:51] isn't replaced unless they can agree on [06:53] someone to replace him. And that has [06:54] never happened. [06:55] >> So it really is like there's a lot more [06:58] choice involved it sounds like in Israel [07:01] certainly than in the states when there [07:02] are really only two parties and each [07:05] party has their president in place [07:07] beforehand. There's a lot more like to [07:10] choose. You're really constructing a [07:12] government much more from scratch. And [07:14] each government, how much do they vary [07:17] from election to election? Meaning, is [07:19] it predictable? If this party wins, this [07:22] is what their coalition's going to be. [07:24] If that party wins, that's what their [07:26] coalition is going to be. [07:26] >> So, it hasn't become so since 2015 [07:30] roughly. [07:31] >> But before that, usually you would have [07:34] a big party that would win, right? [07:36] either to the right likud or to the left [07:40] labor and then it became Kadima and well [07:42] labor didn't become Kadima but the big [07:44] party became Kadima and then you know [07:46] they would have their sort of satellite [07:48] parties the parties that are close to [07:50] them politically but usually they would [07:52] pull from their right and their left you [07:54] know a little bit and you had more [07:57] moderate coalitions that way. [07:58] >> I want to jump in because I think this [08:01] is such an important point. You [08:03] mentioned right and left and I want to [08:07] just stick on that for a moment because [08:10] right and left depending on the context [08:13] can mean radically different things. [08:15] There is a right and left economically. [08:18] There is a right and left religiously. [08:20] Uh there's a right and left when it [08:22] comes to security and negotiation. When [08:25] Israelis talk about right and left [08:28] generally speaking what is the [08:30] conception? What are the right and left [08:32] thing about? What is kind of the central [08:34] issue that is dividing right and left [08:37] parties in different directions? [08:39] >> So, in general, when Israelis talk about [08:41] right and left, they're talking about [08:42] security broadly with the right being [08:44] hawkish and the left being more [08:46] doubbish. Um, but you could even take it [08:49] to the the place of the Palestinians and [08:51] how they relate to an idea of a [08:53] two-state solution, how they relate to [08:55] Judea, Samaria, what is known in [08:58] non-Jewish circles as the West Bank. I [09:00] prefer Jude and Samaria if that's okay. [09:03] And basically the more you get to the [09:05] right, the more sort of control or the [09:08] more that they view Jude and Samaria as [09:10] being a natural and permanent part of [09:12] Israel. And the more you get to the [09:13] left, the more they think that, you [09:15] know, Israelis eventually should not [09:17] live there at all and it should be part [09:18] of a Palestinian state. I was wondering [09:20] if we could back up and just tell me a [09:23] little bit historically [09:26] what were the two major parties right [09:29] and left going through Israeli history. [09:32] Give me the snapshot of like starting [09:35] from the first elections. What was the [09:38] kind of right and left and the choice in [09:40] front of Israeli voters? And then I [09:42] really want to spend the bulk of our [09:44] discussion on where we are today and [09:45] what this choice is. The dominant party [09:48] in the Israeli left for most of Israel's [09:51] history was the Labor Party and the [09:54] dominant party on the right was Likood. [09:56] But they became dominant at different [09:58] times. So before the state of Israel [10:00] existed, right? And there was the [10:03] British mandate for Palestine. The Jews [10:06] not only were, you know, buying land and [10:09] building farms and building houses, but [10:10] they were also building institutions and [10:12] they had their own sort of free protoess [10:17] where they voted in representatives. And [10:20] a lot of the political parties that [10:21] exist today, not all but the more [10:24] historic ones had representation in that [10:27] sort of preessa forum including Aguda [10:31] the ultraorththodox party which they [10:33] also are an organization in the US the [10:36] sort of party that was a party back then [10:38] and here's another fun fact which is [10:42] women have always had the vote in [10:43] Israeli institutions even before the [10:45] state existed but agura opposed women [10:47] having the vote and so each married [10:49] man's vote counted as two votes. [10:51] >> Really? They let that happen [10:53] >> before the state was established. Once [10:54] the state was established, that ended. [10:56] >> Okay. Wow. [10:57] >> So you had Agodati Alaga, you had Labor, [11:01] you had other other parties that [11:02] continued after that point. Labor, they [11:05] were socialist Zionists and they were [11:07] really the dominant force that helped [11:10] Israel be established, right? David [11:12] Bengurian was there and golden mir and [11:14] levia skull and you know Robin was like [11:17] a baby in this time that we're talking [11:19] about but you know he came from that [11:21] tradition as well you know they founded [11:23] the kibbutim and they were the dominant [11:25] political force for the first 29 years [11:27] of Israel's existence as a independent [11:30] state but also before that they ran the [11:32] Jewish agency which was sort of you know [11:34] their main governing body before the [11:36] state existed they believed in socialism [11:40] basically right and you It's ranging [11:44] over the years from socialism to sort of [11:46] social democrats in terms of in your [11:48] more European terms, right? Like for [11:50] Americans like they were really [11:52] socialists, you know, by American [11:54] standards. [11:55] >> Actual socialist, [11:55] >> right? By American standards, these were [11:57] actual socialists. By European [11:59] standards, they're like, you know, [12:00] moderate lefties. So, depends on the [12:02] country. But yeah, the National Labor [12:04] Union is an extremely dominant [12:06] institution. It's it's powerful in its [12:08] own way to this day. they, you know, [12:11] establish had socialized medicine. All [12:13] schools are paid for by the government. [12:15] Um, and a lot of those traditions [12:17] continue. And they dominated the country [12:19] for the first 30 years, not only [12:21] politically, but it was also hugely [12:23] dominant in sort of the social and the [12:26] cultural spheres of Israel. I'm not [12:29] saying they're authoritarian. There was [12:30] a democracy and they won all the [12:32] elections, but they were just an [12:33] extremely dominant force. The resentment [12:36] of that force started to bubble in [12:38] certain circles especially in among Jews [12:41] who came from the Middle East and North [12:43] Africa because the vast majority of the [12:45] Jews who came before the establishment [12:46] of Israel were Ashkanazine. They were [12:48] mostly from Poland, Russia, other places [12:51] as well, but those were the sort of [12:52] dominant groups. The Sphartic, you know, [12:55] Misra Spartic Jews sort of felt like [12:57] they didn't have as much of a voice. [12:59] They weren't respected as much. you [13:00] know, when they moved to Israel, it was [13:02] a very poor country and couldn't give [13:03] them good housing for a long time. There [13:05] were certain things about the medical [13:06] examinations done to them that were [13:09] undignified. And so there was this [13:13] bubbling resentment. Then theor war [13:16] happens in 1973. Israel won theor war, [13:18] right? But it started horribly, much [13:20] like October 7th did. [13:22] >> Like demoralizing for the country. [13:24] >> It was demoralizing. It wasn't some sort [13:25] of amazing flashing victory like 67 was. [13:28] That was the beginning of the end for [13:29] the Labor Party. So two elections, four [13:32] years later, the labor hegemany ends and [13:35] the Liood party rises. Likood party was [13:38] led by Manakan Bean. He was the head in [13:42] pre-state Israel. He was the head of [13:44] what was called the revisionist movement [13:46] which had previously been led by Zam [13:48] Jabatski, but he passed away. Was not [13:50] Zoh to see the state of Israel be [13:52] established. [13:52] >> Give me a word about revisionist [13:55] Zionism. What are they revising? It's a [13:57] word when Americans hear it, it's like [14:00] you you can't even make out what the [14:02] party is about. What are you revising? [14:04] >> The revisionist term in my understanding [14:06] of it at least is sort of in opposition [14:08] to the dominant socialism of Zionism. [14:11] You know, they're they saying you can [14:12] you can be a Zionist and you could um [14:14] want free markets and will care about [14:17] individual rights. And also they were a [14:19] lot more hawkish than the socialist [14:21] Zionists who were a lot more optimistic [14:24] about coexistence with uh Israel's [14:26] neighbors. Jabotinsky said the only way [14:28] we can convince the Arabs that we're the [14:32] here to stay is by being very very [14:34] strong. Um and this is a famous essay [14:36] called the iron wall. It's interesting [14:38] because until what you've mentioned that [14:40] good was a party. Yeah. But it sounds [14:42] like in a lot of the earlier votes [14:44] through the 70s this sense of you know [14:48] the question of karim was not a major uh [14:53] election issue from from your telling. [14:55] >> It it was not it really wasn't. They [14:57] were these parties were small. They were [15:00] generally not in the labor coalition. In [15:02] fact, more powerful than the [15:04] ultraorththox parties in Israel's early [15:06] decades was the um religious Zionist [15:09] parties. There were even religious [15:10] Zionist socialists. In a way, there sort [15:12] of still are because there's some [15:13] kibbutim uh religious kibbutim. And they [15:16] tended to um sit with the Labor Party [15:20] and cooperate with the Labor Party uh in [15:22] government. And this has to do sort of [15:25] with Ruff Cook's way of looking at [15:26] Israel um or of the at the Jewish people [15:29] where he felt that you know secular Jews [15:32] whether they know it or not are playing [15:33] a part in the redemption of the Jewish [15:35] people and so they were much more part [15:38] of the early coalitions and it was [15:39] actually um when came to power that he [15:42] brought in the more into politics and [15:45] then in the decade after came into [15:48] politics um Rabbi Vajf stop being the [15:51] chief rabbi of Israel and had his sort [15:53] of second career as the head of a [15:55] political party. He didn't run for [15:57] office, right? But there was a party [15:58] called Shas which he was the spiritual [16:00] leader of and they became very powerful [16:03] similar to how Manfa did by pulling in [16:05] votes from um disgruntled Jews from the [16:09] Middle East and North Africa. [16:11] >> How did we get to where we are today? [16:14] You know, there was a period where it [16:15] felt every election the central issue [16:19] was about the Palestinian state and [16:22] whether they will have a state, two [16:24] states, one state. What years was that? [16:27] And did October 7th essentially put an [16:30] end to that across the board? I I want [16:33] to slowly get into the issues facing us [16:35] today. So policy say was not something [16:38] that was widely taken seriously until it [16:41] was in a way foisted onto the public in [16:44] 1993 with the Oslo Accords. You know, it [16:46] was something people on the right were [16:48] worried that that a leftwing government [16:50] would give away parts of Jay in Samaria, [16:52] but it wasn't something that they ever [16:54] campaigned on or said they were really [16:55] going to do until the Oslo Accords. And [16:57] the Oslo Accords were the initial [16:59] negotiations were conducted totally in [17:01] secret. And in fact it was illegal [17:02] because it was illegal to talk to uh the [17:05] PLO because they were a terrorist [17:07] organization. So it was sort of it was [17:09] announced and you did have you know the [17:12] Labor Party was still quite popular then [17:15] they they had just won an election and [17:17] um you had a large what they call in [17:19] Israel the peace camp. So they were very [17:21] excited about an opportunity to make [17:22] peace with the Palestinians and that was [17:23] when Palestinian statethood became [17:25] something serious for Israelis. I mean a [17:29] decade before that maybe even more [17:32] somewhat more international community [17:34] tried to pressure Israel but it was not [17:36] it was like a non-starter domestically [17:38] in Israel but around when the Oslo [17:40] Accords came out that's when it became [17:42] the big debate technically the Osloords [17:44] didn't really give the Palestinians a [17:45] state it gave them autonomy but it sort [17:47] of it was like a snowball you know it [17:50] sort of snowballed into this isn't going [17:52] to give them statehood and the OS are [17:54] extremely controversial I think people [17:56] forget it a lot today I Do people [17:58] remember that he's clock robbing was [17:59] assassinated? But that that was a person [18:00] who was an extremist, right? And people [18:02] >> we remember the handshake. I mean, I was [18:04] a kid. I think we were both probably [18:06] around this the same age. I was in [18:07] elementary school at the time. I [18:09] remember vividly hearing that the prime [18:12] minister got shot in America. I believe [18:13] it was on a mozzar. Yeah, it was [18:16] >> uh on a Saturday night is when we found [18:18] out. I remember that as a kid and I [18:20] remember the hearing a president say [18:23] shalom cave which for an elementary [18:25] school kid we just thought it was [18:27] fantastically cool to see a US president [18:30] speak Hebrew. It was like around the [18:32] same time I remember as Adam Sandler's [18:34] Hanukkah song and I'm like oh my gosh [18:36] the whole world knows about us. It was [18:38] like a very exciting time through the [18:41] eyes of a child. We probably were very [18:44] sheltered from the how chaotic it felt [18:48] in Israeli society, [18:49] >> right? So I I mean I was growing up in [18:51] New Jersey but a very Israeli family who [18:53] was like always yelling about it at the [18:55] Shabbat table. So I knew it was [18:57] controversial even though I was like [18:59] eight. But I yeah I mean if you weren't [19:02] at that kind of Shabbat table then no. [19:05] But you know in Israel there were [19:06] protests all over the country. You have [19:08] a lot of people in Israeli politics now [19:10] who were shaped by that like Nafali [19:13] Bennett who was very young at the time [19:15] and he took part in a lot of those [19:16] protests and he also um he had stopped [19:19] being religious and he put his ke back [19:21] on his head because he felt that um [19:24] religious people were all being sort of [19:26] delegitimized and blamed after Rabbi was [19:28] assassinated. That was like his impetus [19:30] to return to religion because he was [19:32] like no actually they're not all bad [19:34] people. Um but in the subsequent years [19:37] like Oslo was you know the sort of [19:39] formative experience of a lot of young [19:41] uh politicians and where they stood on [19:43] Oslo and on Palestinian statethood were [19:46] cataloged along the spectrum in the [19:48] politessa. [19:50] Let's get up to where we are today and [19:52] let me begin by kind of asking how has [19:55] October 7th changed the calculus of all [19:59] the parties in terms of what is actually [20:03] from a security perspective. What is the [20:05] difference between right-wing and [20:07] leftwing right now? [20:08] >> Since October 7th, the conversation has [20:10] shifted a lot and hardly anyone is [20:12] talking about a two-state solution. I [20:15] mean, it's only like the far left, which [20:17] is they're called the Democrats. they're [20:19] the only ones to talk about and and the [20:21] Arab parties which are a whole other [20:22] story that we could get into. But um [20:25] everybody's kind of saying, you know, [20:27] definitely not now and maybe there's no [20:30] point in talking about it even for a [20:31] long time, you know, and and I saw polls [20:33] that showed 33% of Israelis described [20:36] themselves as having their views shift [20:37] to the right. A third said they shifted [20:39] to the right, half said they didn't move [20:41] at all, you know, then you have like [20:42] another 20% who most of the 20% didn't [20:45] know. It was like single digits. um the [20:48] ones who said they might have moved to [20:49] the left. You know, two-state solution, [20:51] Palestinian stateown is not something [20:52] that political parties are campaigning [20:54] on right now. No, I think it could very [20:56] easily get back onto the agenda because [20:57] Israel's experiencing a lot of isolation [20:59] from the world and I think that it makes [21:02] uh Israel's leadership more vulnerable [21:04] to pressure. Well, let me ask you. I see [21:07] at least three issues that are animating [21:10] this election and I'm curious from to [21:12] hear from you which you think is the [21:14] most crucial in the eyes of the general [21:17] public Israelis. What are the options [21:19] being presented to to the Israelis [21:22] issues? And the three issues I see, the [21:24] first issue I see is a referendum on BB, [21:28] meaning we're voting whether or not [21:30] we're still in your corner or we want, [21:33] you know, a governmental patch for you [21:35] to take, you know, more responsibility [21:38] or or a different approach to post [21:40] October 7th and the and the security [21:42] failures. The second issue I see is [21:45] security in general. post October 7th. [21:48] Who is the person who is best equipped [21:51] to ensure the safety of the state of [21:53] Israel? The last issue and and there [21:56] could be more I is really a religious [21:58] issue and it's the question of what is [22:01] the vision for specifically the karedi [22:04] community the draft but really a larger [22:07] issue of the religious character of the [22:10] state of Israel and in what way can can [22:14] become a part in the eyes of the public [22:18] you know I I know many would say we [22:20] already are and we're doing what you [22:22] know what we think Kared may feel that [22:24] way, but in the eyes of the public or [22:27] elements of the public for the a better [22:29] integration of Karedim in building the [22:32] state of Israel. Which of these three BB [22:35] October 7th security or Karedim and [22:38] religious issues do you think is like [22:40] the driving force of this election or [22:42] did I miss the central issue entirely? [22:45] >> Okay, so polling shows that for the [22:47] Israeli public, security and the economy [22:50] are the top two issues. economy they [22:52] mainly mean cost of living because the [22:54] macro economy in Israel is actually [22:55] doing growth but you know the people [22:57] don't always feel that in their pockets [23:00] so I guess I would say post October 7th [23:02] security that being said the campaign [23:06] the election is not being conducted in [23:08] that way it's being conducted mainly as [23:11] a yes bb no BB referendum and the frame [23:14] are still an important issue but I would [23:16] say that those are the the the main [23:18] conversation is about post October [23:21] security and about BB. It's so much [23:23] about BB. The leading opposition party, [23:26] they're called Yashar. They're led by [23:27] Gaddy Eisenh, former IDF chief of staff. [23:30] He mostly just presents his positions as [23:33] in opposition to BB. Like, it's very [23:36] hard to know what his exact plans or [23:38] intentions are on some of the biggest [23:41] issues. He's not very specific about it. [23:44] And I feel bad saying it because I don't [23:46] want to sound biased. And so I'm always [23:49] like reading his statements and [23:50] listening to his speeches because I'm [23:52] like, you know, I I go on shows or I get [23:54] asked to do speaking engagements and I [23:56] wish that I had a more solid platform to [23:58] talk about because I want to give an [24:00] honest portrayal. But, you know, he [24:03] thinks that Misso conducted the war [24:05] wrong because he thinks should have [24:07] prioritized the hostages over the effort [24:10] to defeat. He says that Israel will be [24:13] out of Gaza and Kamas will be defeated [24:15] in 18 months. NA is a bit more [24:17] open-ended about we need a security [24:19] perimeter over time and things like [24:21] that. Those are like the specifics, but [24:24] it's not like, you know, I don't know [24:26] what what are we going to do about the [24:27] war in Iran? How long are soldiers going [24:29] to be in Lebanon? How long are soldiers [24:31] going to be in Syria? There's still [24:32] soldiers in Syria. You know, these are [24:34] the things that it's very hard to get a [24:36] real read on a lot of people's opinions [24:39] on this. They just are saying that what [24:42] the government is doing now is wrong. [24:43] Let's talk for a moment about kind of [24:46] the issue about the draft [24:50] and the religious kind of religious [24:52] character of the state. This is a long a [24:55] much longer uh history of how we got to [24:58] this moment. I find that this issue [25:01] really raises people's uh blood pressure [25:04] and it's hard to talk about in a [25:07] sensible and balanced way. But at least [25:10] the issue in front of us, we have Kareni [25:12] parties. What do you see as the options [25:15] being presented to the public in terms [25:17] of the integration of into the state of [25:21] Israel? [25:21] >> All right. So, first of all, there are a [25:24] bunch of different proposals that [25:25] different parties have brought up, but [25:27] the reality is that the Kared are not [25:30] playing ball, right? So it's really hard [25:33] to say what the options are because the [25:36] parties and the broader community thinks [25:41] any option any change is bad. Now I [25:45] don't know maybe they don't think any [25:46] change is bad but it's not being [25:47] reflected by their politicians right [25:49] that's the claim that there's this new [25:50] moderate party called the public and [25:54] they say that there are large numbers of [25:56] kared who well first of all one of the [25:58] leading people in the party is a woman [26:01] who has a PhD in political science that [26:04] specialized in kared politics [26:07] >> right so she says that historically [26:11] change has actually come from the [26:12] grassroots and not from the rabbis like [26:14] big social change in the community. And [26:17] she thinks that if the people who aren't [26:19] studying in Yeshiva all day go to the [26:21] army that eventually the rabbis will [26:23] will come around as well because right [26:24] now the rabbis are saying even if you're [26:26] like a bum who never studies Torah, you [26:29] still shouldn't go to the army because [26:30] at least you're part of the community [26:31] and if you go to the army maybe you [26:33] won't be religious anymore or you won't [26:34] be anymore. But let's pause for a second [26:38] because you you know this is a new party [26:42] which is a grassroots effort of [26:45] presenting a an option for howim could [26:50] be better integrated into the state of [26:52] Israel be a part of building the state [26:54] of Israel and this is their first time [26:56] running the election. I've seen a lot of [26:59] activity from this party uh specifically [27:01] on social media. Um, I've seen a lot of [27:05] both praise and criticism. You know, [27:08] it's the classic not a true Scotsman [27:10] argument, meaning the moment that there [27:13] is a new kared party that you can't [27:15] truly bear if you're not in line. [27:18] Exactly. Exactly. But I'm curious what [27:21] you see in your own reporting and just [27:23] living in Israel. Do you do you see this [27:27] group kind of resonating and getting [27:29] traction? Would you be surprised if [27:32] they're able to cross that threshold, [27:34] which is probably their main goal? [27:37] >> They're polling below 2%. So, it seems [27:40] like a stretch for them to pass the [27:42] threshold. That being said, if anybody's [27:44] going to be lying to the pollsters, it [27:47] might be [27:48] who don't want people to know that [27:51] they're going against what the norm of [27:53] their community. So maybe I think the [27:55] chance is very small that they'll pass [27:56] the threshold, but it is possible that [27:59] they will then get positions as advisers [28:02] to the defense minister or the education [28:05] minister um on these issues to advise [28:08] them how to make policy form which is [28:11] also very important. Right now these [28:13] people's names are out there. Now [28:15] they've met with some of these [28:16] politicians who are trying to convince [28:17] them to do this or that. Um so they're [28:20] sort of in the game. I have a larger [28:22] question and I'm curious how you make [28:24] sense of this. I I feel a very deep [28:28] frustration at the quality of political [28:32] candidates, approaches [28:35] uh that Israel has put forth for a [28:37] country of the Jewish people where we [28:41] are so proud of our technological [28:45] progress, we are so proud of our [28:48] spiritual accomplishments. It seems that [28:50] in the arena of politics, we we're still [28:54] just like it's like color war. No one is [28:57] really offering that soaring vision. I [29:00] would almost compare and I'm sure our [29:02] listeners will will will hate this but [29:04] to understand the comparison when like [29:06] Obama first hit the scene and having [29:09] this kind of optimistic yes we can bring [29:13] everybody together start a movement [29:16] let's come together and really vision uh [29:19] for the Jewish people in the state of [29:22] Israel why do you think it's been so [29:24] hard to have a candidate like that [29:26] unless you think my assessment is wrong [29:29] >> I would argue that when Nali Bennett and [29:31] Ya Laid came onto the scene as two [29:34] separate and very different political [29:36] parties in 2013 that they were both like [29:39] that they were brought something new to [29:42] the table and they spoke in a very [29:44] optimistic way. Um actually when Leed [29:47] first ran there there was an online quiz [29:49] back when people were still doing online [29:51] quizzes um where they would have a quote [29:53] and they would say is this a quote from [29:54] my year laid speech or is it a quote [29:56] from the IKEA catalog because you know [29:58] the IKEA catalog sounds really inspiring [30:02] it was a very difficult quiz and um but [30:05] there was something to it you know that [30:07] he he represented they were relatively [30:10] young I mean Bennett was I think 39 when [30:12] he first ran he wasn't considered a [30:14] serious contender for prime minister, [30:16] but he, you know, his party got 10% of [30:18] the seasons on his first round, so that [30:20] was good. And Laid got even more. Laid [30:22] got, I think, 19 on his first round. [30:24] Dave did bring something new to the [30:26] table, but Netanyahu is, you know, the [30:30] people say he's the political wizard [30:32] because people who like him, there's [30:33] like a cheer, like a chance that we [30:35] could say, if he's a wizard, he's a [30:36] wizard or he's a magician. Same word. [30:39] And he's very, very good at eliminating [30:43] political threats. They have a lot of [30:44] baggage now. Bennett especially has sort [30:47] of no real base. That's the whole other [30:49] story, right? Because he came from the [30:51] right and now he's running for the [30:52] center. Over the years, there have been [30:54] other really good people in Likood in [30:56] senior positions in Likood. And again, [30:58] Netanyahu is very good at eliminating [30:59] political threats. He's very good at [31:01] nipping things in the bud before he [31:02] thinks that they could come and try to [31:04] seriously run against him. I think that [31:07] when Netanyahu leaves the scene and [31:09] there isn't someone who's seen as this, [31:12] you know, almost undefeable force in [31:14] politics, things will change a lot. [31:17] >> Fascinating. And I'm curious for you, [31:20] you know, as a journalist and also [31:23] somebody who lives in Israel and is [31:25] building a family in Israel. I'm not [31:27] asking who you vote for, but I am asking [31:31] how do you remain [31:33] optimistic and not just feel like we're [31:35] stuck in Groundhog's Day of this [31:38] repeating cycle that we're not actually [31:42] making progress. I think what bothers me [31:45] mostly is that I was hoping that post [31:48] October 7th, a new candidate, something [31:52] different who could kind of galvanize [31:54] the hearts and minds. What we're seeing [31:56] in the music scene in Israel is what I [31:58] would like to see in the political [31:59] scene. You go to these like concerts and [32:02] you see people from across the spectrum [32:04] and they're singing together and you [32:06] know that inside when their eyes are [32:08] closed and they're singing Hashi Zenu [32:10] and you see the way that they're kind of [32:13] wetting this historic longing for like a [32:17] proper elevated Jewish state for the [32:20] Jewish people. There's a spir a [32:22] spiritual longing that's been awakened [32:24] and then you cross over into the ballot [32:27] box and it just feels like dated. It [32:31] feels stale. It feels stodg like I'm not [32:34] an Israeli citizen. I'm not voting. But [32:36] like aside from the family who's there, [32:38] aside from my connection to the Jewish [32:40] people, every Jew has this longing of [32:42] like who knows how long we're going to [32:44] have this opportunity for. And it there [32:47] is a disappointment of like where we are [32:50] right now, at least through my eyes. And [32:52] I'm curious for you like how do you [32:55] retain that optimism that we're headed [32:57] in the right direction? [32:58] >> I mean, my number one pro tip for [33:01] surviving ugly Israeli elections is to [33:03] have a baby [33:05] because [33:07] I love that. [33:08] >> I've been on maternity leave for some of [33:10] the worst times. not October 7th itself [33:13] but um in our fiveyear ele you know our [33:16] what was it like five elections in four [33:19] years I had two babies um and I just [33:21] came back from maternity leave so it's [33:24] helped me I you know focus on the [33:27] important things in life I'm not even [33:29] joking I mean like there's there's [33:31] nothing that can make you [33:33] >> hope more hopeful for the future than a [33:35] baby I think that's also something about [33:37] Israeli society which is um it's a very [33:41] childfriendly society. It's a very, you [33:44] know, people become parents young, [33:46] people have a lot of children. Um, [33:48] certainly relative to the western world. [33:50] Um, so that's that's very helpful. And [33:52] and just in general, the thing that [33:54] makes me the most hopeful about Israel [33:55] are the people of Israel. I mean, you [33:57] talk about what you see at these [33:58] concerts and and how people are [34:00] connecting to their Judaism. And I I [34:01] feel like in the real world, when I'm [34:04] not in politics, I see people who are [34:06] connecting to each other every day. I [34:08] live in a neighborhood that was only [34:09] built three years ago, not in Judea and [34:11] Samaria. Like it's a new neighborhood in [34:13] a big city. And I see people coming [34:15] together to try to build community here. [34:17] You know, people who came from all [34:18] different places in Israel and we live [34:19] here and the school started and [34:21] everyone's working together on the PTA [34:22] to try to make it the best school for [34:24] our kids and the sh started and we want [34:26] to have meaningful religious experiences [34:28] together. And it's not a religious [34:30] neighborhood only. you know, we have our [34:32] secular neighbors who we also try to [34:33] build community with. And that like, you [34:36] know, when you're touching grass, as [34:38] they like to say on the internet, that's [34:40] what keeps me hopeful because like the [34:41] the real people of this country are [34:43] great. [34:44] >> One of the things that worries me is, [34:46] you know, one of the demographics like [34:48] in America, you know, there was a lot of [34:51] angst over immigration, over outsiders. [34:56] in Israel. Um there's definitely a lot [34:58] of angst about security, but the biggest [35:02] question to me is about other Jews, [35:04] namely Karedim. And I'm curious for you, [35:08] do you have personal relationships with [35:12] Karedim, either through family, through [35:14] friendships? And I'm curious how you as [35:17] a journalist knowing how contentious [35:20] this issue is, how are you able if at [35:23] all to maintain those relationships when [35:26] it becomes such a uh radioactive talking [35:30] point? [35:31] >> So I have like people friends from work, [35:34] other reporters, female reporters from [35:36] Karlets because Kar men are not really [35:39] making friends. [35:41] um a little bit, you know, like I when I [35:43] was a reporter in the kessa, I was at [35:44] the kessa every day. So I I knew the [35:46] kari reporters, you know, the men and [35:48] the women, but I have some friends. We [35:50] try to share our perspective with each [35:51] other to some extent, but I also just [35:53] don't don't get into these things so [35:55] much with them because if you want to be [35:56] friends with someone and you have a [35:57] really strong disagreement with them. If [35:59] you bring it up all the time, you're [36:00] going to fight with them, you know. But [36:01] I do have a good friend who's a reporter [36:04] for an Israeli Hebrew newspaper and [36:06] she's her and she the newspaper is not [36:10] her. She actually speaks Russian. She's [36:12] from Russia. She wore a shaitel on [36:14] Russian Israeli TV which most Russians [36:17] in Israel are not religious. So that's [36:19] also interesting. But um her kids are [36:21] actually going to the army. They're like [36:23] modern moderate parade. So that's you [36:25] know we don't have to have that [36:27] argument. But with other people I and in [36:30] general like with family, right? Like I [36:32] don't have parad members in my family, [36:34] but I have members of my family who are [36:36] kind of anti-religious, like who are [36:39] very secular and they think like if [36:41] you're religious, you must be a fanatic. [36:42] And we try to avoid those things and not [36:45] antagonize each other in person. I know [36:47] they're real views because I see their [36:48] Facebook posts, but you know, we we're [36:51] nice to each other. We don't like, you [36:53] know, start screaming at bar mitzvah. [36:55] It's the beauty of the experiments at [36:56] the state of Israel where where you're [36:59] really it's a model for how to have [37:03] family familial ties with people who you [37:06] are obviously going to disagree with. [37:09] What connects us in Israel is not the [37:11] fact that our opinions are aligned. It's [37:13] the fact that we we share this identity [37:16] and this destiny. the Arab parties post [37:20] October 7th where are they left and what [37:23] has been kind of their proposal in [37:26] adjusting to a post October 7th [37:28] electorate. [37:29] >> So pre-occtober 7th um in the government [37:33] that existed from 2021 to 2022 [37:36] um there was a the coalition that [37:38] existed not the government itself but [37:40] there was an Arab party in the [37:42] coalition. Some people call them a [37:43] moderate party. They're they're moderate [37:45] in the sense that they are willing to [37:47] work with the government of Israel on [37:49] domestic issues to benefit their [37:51] constituents, which is not necessarily [37:54] what the other Arab parties are willing [37:56] to do. But they are an Islamist party [37:58] that historically had affiliations with [38:01] the Muslim Brotherhood, right, which is [38:02] a extremist group. They have some key [38:06] ideological differences from the Musl [38:08] Brotherhood but that sort of have [38:11] historically developed in recent decade [38:13] in in over a few decades. Um but that [38:16] still exists. Before October 7th they [38:18] were in a coalition and that was a [38:19] historic event and people were very [38:21] optimistic about coexistence and the [38:23] leader of the party said things that [38:25] Jewish Israelis really wanted to hear [38:27] about you know he accepts that Israel is [38:29] a Jewish state etc. [38:31] um post October 7th he condemned the [38:33] terrorism wholeheartedly but then there [38:36] were certain investigative reports that [38:39] about the different institutions like [38:41] organizations and charities that were [38:43] related to this party. They had been [38:45] giving the they were for example [38:48] donating to Palestinian widows and [38:50] orphans supposedly but it was a kamas [38:53] affiliated organization things like [38:55] that. Um there were speeches that the [38:57] leader of the party was giving in Arabic [38:59] that sounded a lot less Zionist [39:02] pro-Israel than what he was saying in [39:04] Hebrew. Um and so people sort of soured [39:07] on him. There's somewhat of a lack of [39:10] clarity of whether he could be in a [39:13] coalition the in the anti-Netanyao [39:16] coalition or not but certainly um the [39:19] part of Idor Lieberman who leads one of [39:21] the parties has said he will not sit in [39:23] a coalition with that party it will be [39:26] very controversial let's say if he comes [39:28] back in now the other Arab party or [39:30] block running is called the joint list [39:32] and they're a merger of three small Arab [39:35] parties that probably wouldn't have [39:36] passed the threshold on their [39:38] Um, one is the Communist Party. So, they [39:41] are not all Arab. They have a a token [39:43] Jew always, but but they're the [39:45] Communist Party. Um, and they we're [39:49] pro-Assad. You know, they take all kinds [39:51] of very controversial positions, let's [39:53] say. Um, the other one is called the [39:56] Arab Movement for Change. It's led by [39:58] Ahmed Tibbe. Ahmedi is probably the most [40:00] famous Arab politician in Israel. He [40:02] himself on his own pulls tens of [40:04] thousands of votes. before he ran for [40:06] Knesset, he was an adviser to Yaser [40:08] Arafat. He's a citizen of Israel, but he [40:11] was an adviser to Yaser Arafat. Also [40:13] holds Jew views that are anathema to the [40:16] majority of Israeli Jews when it comes [40:17] to, you know, Israel as a Jewish state, [40:19] what Palestinians should do, etc. Um, [40:23] and the third is a party called Balad, [40:25] which, you know, when we want to in an [40:27] article in short describe them, we call [40:28] them Arab nationalists. But to me, the [40:30] key thing you have to know is that the [40:32] founder of the party is a fugitive from [40:34] justice because he in the 2006 second [40:38] Lebanon war, he informed Bala where [40:41] their rockets and missiles were falling [40:42] in Israel. And then once the Israeli [40:44] authorities figured that out, he fled [40:46] Israel. And since then, there have been [40:49] two other Kessa members from that party [40:52] who have gotten into trouble with the [40:53] law. [40:54] >> Yikes. I It's really eyeopening. You [40:56] know, people talk about like in America, [40:59] people who are in office who may not [41:01] love America or may not appreciate the [41:03] values of America. It really does pale [41:06] in comparison in Israel where you could [41:09] have people who are participating in the [41:11] political system who really do not want [41:15] this state or this political structure [41:17] at all potentially. [41:18] >> Yeah. And the thing is people are always [41:20] like, "Oh, the Arab parties aren't in [41:21] the coalition." And it makes it out that [41:22] it's like because they're Arabs, right? [41:25] It's not because they're Arabs. Like [41:26] there are parties running that have [41:28] Arabs in them. Muslims, Christians, [41:30] Jews, [41:31] >> and nobody has a problem with it as long [41:33] as they, you know, don't side with [41:35] Israel's enemies. [41:36] >> Let's conclude, if you'll allow me, by [41:40] asking you a few like more rapid fire [41:44] questions about uh the elections and the [41:47] landscape. My first question, if you had [41:50] to say one question that you hope voters [41:53] ask themselves before casting their [41:55] ballot, what do you think is the [41:57] question voters should have top of mind [41:59] before they make their decision? [42:01] >> Who do you think can best shape the [42:04] future of Israel? Or whose values do you [42:06] think should best shape the future of [42:08] Israel? [42:08] >> Next question. If somebody were to ask [42:11] you how you are described politically, [42:14] how would you describe your own [42:16] political affiliation? [42:17] >> As a reporter, I don't like want to [42:21] affiliate politically. That's not [42:23] something that I But I will say that um [42:25] there are American ideas that barely [42:28] exist in Israel that I strongly believe [42:31] in, let's put it that way, in terms of [42:34] individualism and free markets and [42:37] things like that that are [42:40] sadly missing from the conversation. [42:42] >> When you are looking to get informed, [42:45] somebody is reading your writing. Who is [42:47] a journalist who sharply disagrees with [42:51] you? You do not see eye to eye, but you [42:53] think it's worthwhile to read them to [42:56] get a different perspective. [42:58] >> Nadav or you could listen to him on Call [43:00] Me Back [43:01] >> and you do disagree. [43:02] >> Yeah, I'm sure we've never voted for the [43:05] same person, but I think he's very smart [43:06] and I think he's serious and [43:08] trustworthy. [43:09] >> A reader says, "I want to become an [43:11] informed really understand inepth [43:15] elections. Give me the top three [43:17] journalists aside from yourself who you [43:19] would encourage people to read. [43:21] >> Amit Sagal really great Substack. He [43:23] doesn't need my plug. He's the most [43:25] popular journalist in Israel. But maybe [43:27] in English a little bit. I think Khabib [43:29] Gore is doing great work for the free [43:31] press. But I think he's not so much [43:34] writing about the election. It's more [43:35] about the bigger philosophical [43:38] questions. Yeah, he's a [43:39] >> he's a thinker. So I'm trying to think [43:42] what about the elections themselves? Um, [43:45] my former colleague at the Jerusalem [43:46] Post, Gil Hoffman, is has always has [43:48] very sharp political insights, but he is [43:51] mostly on I24 News now, which does not [43:54] have a lot of hours in English anymore, [43:56] but you should follow him on social [43:57] media for sure. I really like Laser [44:00] Bourbon, but he's not so much he doesn't [44:01] report on the elections as much as [44:03] Israel's international relations, but I [44:04] think he's really good. Laser Bourbon at [44:06] Times of Israel. [44:07] >> Absolutely. And and I love that uh quite [44:10] a bit. I'm now thinking about all the [44:12] friends who are going to get mad at me [44:13] if I didn't recommend them. But the [44:14] truth is my my closest friends don't [44:16] write about politics. So [44:19] >> my final question for English speakers, [44:22] what do you think English speakers who [44:25] are not able to read kind of the actual [44:28] Israeli press? What, if anything, do you [44:31] think they are missing about current [44:34] events happening in Israel? [44:35] >> I think they're missing the funny side [44:37] of the election. There's always a lot of [44:38] like funny people funny and clever. [44:41] Great answer. Yeah, there's always a lot [44:43] of really weird parties that run. [44:46] >> Yes, the ads have been a lot of fun this [44:48] election cycle. Moving, powerful, like [44:51] >> Yeah, there's been some good ones. [44:52] There's been a lot of AI slop [44:54] unfortunately. Um, but I think people [44:57] get really creative around these [44:58] elections. [44:59] >> Laav, thank you so much for joining us [45:02] today. I am so grateful and let's pray [45:05] together that whatever that future [45:07] holds, it keeps on getting better and [45:09] better for the state of Israel and the [45:11] Jewish people. [45:12] >> Amen. [45:14] I'm not sure about you, but one of the [45:16] facts that really caught me off guard [45:18] and I absolutely loved was that the [45:20] modern-day Israeli Knesset with its 120 [45:23] seats is modeled after the Ane Knesses [45:26] Hagadola, the great assembly that really [45:30] were the architects of the Judaism that [45:34] we know every single day. the ones who [45:36] really put into place so many of the [45:38] practices and routines that ensure that [45:41] Jewish life would survive even in exile [45:44] even after the destruction of the temple [45:46] which is really was like a transitional [45:48] group. And I think about the Knesset now [45:52] and how many members of the Knesset were [45:55] even alive when the state of Israel were [45:57] founded. like we are a really [45:59] transitional generation whereas in [46:01] previous you know generations and years [46:04] the leaders of Israel were there in its [46:06] founding and like we've kind of just [46:08] left that period which it seems like so [46:11] long ago but it it's fairly recent we've [46:13] just left that period and now we're in a [46:15] generation where most people though not [46:17] all were born into the state of Israel [46:20] and really I think these are the most [46:22] important questions facing the Jewish [46:24] people and I'll boil it down to one [46:26] question What if any is the Jewish [46:29] character of the state of Israel? How do [46:32] we solve this question? How do we [46:34] address this question? How do we ensure [46:36] that the Jewish people have a sovereign [46:38] state that protects them, but not only [46:41] protects them, but is able to foster and [46:44] cultivate and inspire the next [46:46] generation of Jewish life. So, I think [46:48] this is incredibly important, and I hope [46:50] today's episode was focused enough to [46:52] give people that basic without putting a [46:54] thumb on the scale. I am not uh voting. [46:56] I'm not an Israeli citizen, but at the [46:58] very least to have an overview to [47:00] understand what is at stake. What are [47:02] the choices in front of us? How did we [47:03] get to this point in Israeli elections? [47:05] I hope an episode like today was [47:07] educational and able to kind of give [47:09] that landscape. And I thank you all for [47:12] listening. And like many of our [47:13] episodes, this episode was edited by our [47:16] incredible friends Dena Emerson and [47:18] Simone. I'm so grateful to both of you [47:21] for all of your work in 1840. If you [47:23] enjoyed this episode or any of our [47:24] episodes, please subscribe, rate, [47:26] review, tell your friends about it. [47:28] Forwarding one episode to one friend [47:30] really helps us build our network and [47:33] continue to create great conversations [47:35] about Jewish life and the Jewish people. [47:38] And of course, you can donate at [47:40] 1840.org/donate. [47:42] All of this really helps us reach new [47:44] listeners and continue putting out great [47:46] content. You can also leave us a [47:48] voicemail with feedback or questions [47:50] that we may play very soon on an 1840 [47:53] episode. And that number is 2125821840. [47:57] Once again, that number is 2125821840. [48:00] If you'd like to learn more about this [48:01] topic or some of the other great ones [48:03] we've covered in the past, be sure to [48:04] check out 1840.org. [48:06] That's 18fty.org [48:09] where you can also find videos, [48:11] articles, recommended readings, and [48:13] weekly emails. Thank you so much for [48:15] listening and stay curious my friends. [48:36] Heat. Heat.
