Transcript [00:00] If a civilization has adopted evil as [00:02] its moral load star, it's going to die. [00:06] They don't realize that the people [00:09] coming for the Israelis say and have [00:12] said for years and say it over and over [00:14] again, first we come for the Jews and [00:17] then we come for the Christians. They [00:19] believe that the Jews are behind the [00:21] West since they believe that modernity [00:24] is the great foe of Islam and is going [00:26] to destroy Islam if it's not if it's not [00:29] fought. And since they believe the West [00:31] is behind modernity and since they [00:32] believe the Jews are behind the West, [00:34] they have to get rid of the Jews in [00:37] order to proceed to destroy the West. [00:40] And they say it over and over again. [00:43] Welcome to this episode of Shoulder to [00:44] Shoulder, a podcast where a pastor and a [00:46] rabbi get to the heart of issues that [00:48] matter to people of faith. I'm Pastor [00:50] Doug Reed here with my friend Rabbi [00:51] Pesak Baliki. And on this episode, we'll [00:53] be having a conversation with British [00:55] public commentator and writer Melanie [00:57] Phillips. Before we jump into our [01:00] conversation, please like our Facebook [01:02] page and join our Facebook group, the [01:04] Shoulderto-Ser Community, where you can [01:05] interact with Pesak and me all week [01:07] long. The best way to support this [01:09] podcast is to go on over to Patreon, [01:11] subscribe to Shouldertoshoulder. For [01:14] just $10 a month, you're helping us [01:16] bring this message of [01:17] shoulderto-shoulder to more and more [01:19] people all around the world. As a thank [01:21] you for your $10 subscription, you'll [01:22] get exclusive access to chapterby [01:24] chapter Bible study beginning in Genesis [01:26] chapter 1 from Rabbi Pesoc and myself. [01:29] So go on over to Patreon and subscribe [01:31] to Shouldertoshoulder for just $10 a [01:33] month. We're grateful for our sponsor, [01:35] Israel 365 News, which is the place for [01:38] you to go and get your news and [01:39] information before going to anyone else. [01:41] Go on over to Israel the numbers [01:43] 365news.com [01:46] to check out some of their articles and [01:47] be sure to read Rabbi Peso and my [01:49] columns. Peso each and every week, [01:52] Israel 365 has incredible products and [01:54] initiatives happening. What are we [01:57] supporting today? [01:59] Rashana, the Jewish New Year, and the [02:02] high holiday season are coming and [02:04] they're coming very soon. And right now [02:06] in Israel, there are many families who [02:09] unfortunately will not have enough food [02:11] on the table for the holiday. Not [02:13] because they don't want to celebrate, [02:15] but because they cannot afford to. And [02:16] this month, the team at Israel 365 [02:18] charity is running a dedicated campaign [02:21] to assist these families and make sure [02:23] that they can celebrate with their [02:24] children like the rest of the Jewish [02:26] people. We're putting together massive [02:28] food packages that will be handd [02:30] delivered to people's doorstep. And [02:33] we're also sponsoring for some [02:35] participants where applicable to attend [02:37] a deluxe holiday meal being hosted in [02:40] Jerusalem. If this initiative speaks to [02:42] you, I ask that you join us and help [02:44] make a difference for these people. A [02:46] big part of our own festivities on these [02:49] festivals must be caring for those who [02:51] are in need. So, please click the link [02:52] in the description and let's make sure [02:55] that no family in Israel sits at an [02:57] empty table on these high holidays. [03:01] Awesome. So important. Please [03:03] shoulder-to-shoulder family do what you [03:05] do and stop over there and see what's [03:08] going on for Russia and be a part of the [03:11] solution. Pesock, it is good to see you [03:14] and I am excited to jump into this [03:16] conversation. Why don't you introduce [03:19] our guest today? My my pleasure and my [03:22] honor. Our guest today is Melanie [03:24] Phillips, a British journalist and [03:25] columnist for the Times of London. One [03:27] of the sharpest, most fearless [03:28] commentators writing on anti-semitism, [03:31] Islamism, and the crisis of the West [03:34] today. She's the author of a number of [03:36] books, Londonistan, and most recently, [03:39] Fighting the Hate, a handbook for Jews [03:42] under siege, and her writing appears [03:44] everywhere from JNS to her own widely [03:46] read Substack. She spent decades warning [03:49] about exactly the civilizational [03:51] currents that we are now living through [03:53] and we talk so much about on this [03:55] podcast. And to and today with Melanie [03:58] here with us, we're going to get into [04:00] all of it. So Melanie, thank you so much [04:02] for joining the shoulder-to-shoulder [04:03] podcast. [04:04] >> It's a pleasure uh to be with you today. [04:09] >> Well, Melanie, you've spent decades [04:10] warning about the direction of the West [04:12] and watching Britain in particular [04:15] decline. Uh, I just saw your latest [04:17] Substack post about the British [04:19] government uh, you know, tis tisking at [04:21] Israel and telling us that we can't [04:23] build housing for Jews in the suburbs of [04:25] Jerusalem. How close are we to the point [04:28] where the West can no longer save [04:30] itself? And what would have to happen [04:32] for it to turn things around? Because, [04:34] you know, with all of this, all these [04:35] warnings that people like yourself are [04:37] giving and and, you know, saying, you [04:39] know, the end is nigh, the question is, [04:41] have we passed the point of no return? [04:45] I don't think we've passed to the point [04:46] of no return in the west in general. Um, [04:50] Britain is another matter. Britain is [04:52] the furthest down this very uh steep and [04:56] most unfortunate trajectory of decline. [05:00] Um, and that's because Britain really is [05:02] in the vanguard, if I can put it that [05:04] way, um, of uh, getting rid of religion, [05:08] getting rid of the Bible. [05:10] Britain is by and large a postreligious [05:13] society, [05:15] excuse me, a post-Christian society. Uh, [05:17] very much more than America. I mean, [05:19] there really is no comparison with [05:20] America. Even though in America, I think [05:23] these forces of secularization and, uh, [05:26] of liberal universalism are steadily [05:29] encroaching. Uh, not to mention [05:31] Islamization, which is another matter, [05:33] but related. Um, Britain is uh is really [05:36] really was the first down this road for [05:38] various reasons which we can go into if [05:40] if you want. Now, has it passed the [05:44] point of no return? Well, I kind of veer [05:47] between thinking it has and thinking uh [05:49] it hasn't. The reason why I get [05:51] pessimistic is because I have been, as [05:53] you've alluded to just now, I've been [05:55] charting this in my writing for a very [05:58] long time. And I've been charting the [06:01] onslaught on the core building blocks of [06:04] a society uh particularly uh the [06:08] traditional family uh the education [06:11] system and the idea of the nation. uh [06:14] the traditional family uh started going [06:17] down the tubes I would say back in the [06:19] 70s and 80s under a willed onslaught uh [06:24] which sought to liberate women and then [06:27] liberate everybody from all so-called [06:30] normative constraints of behavior. So we [06:32] had lifestyle choice in which everyone [06:35] was told that their lifestyle was no [06:38] better or worse than any other and could [06:40] not be contradicted in Britain. As a [06:43] result, and I think this is different [06:44] from America, uh we had the phenomenon [06:47] of progressively uh willed cohabitation. [06:52] Uh and I'm speaking about mainly white [06:54] families. Uh in which [06:57] generations, five, six, seven [06:59] generations in some areas are brought up [07:02] entirely by women. They have no idea [07:04] what a committed father is. Uh they have [07:07] no idea what marriage is. uh the very [07:10] idea of marriage has been long [07:12] desacralized. [07:14] So it became just a contract which you [07:16] could just get out of and the result of [07:18] that the baleful result of that among [07:20] other bailful results is mass [07:23] fatherlessness which has produced feral [07:26] boys. So that's you know family and you [07:29] look at that and you think is there any [07:31] coming back from that? If you have whole [07:33] communities where the the cultural [07:35] memory of a traditional family has just [07:40] disappeared, how can you get back to [07:42] that? And then you have education. [07:45] The idea that education is the [07:47] transmission of a culture down through [07:49] the generations because you want that [07:51] culture to survive because you rate it. [07:54] that went down the tubes in around the [07:56] 1980s and maybe even before, but [07:58] certainly by the 1980s when I started [08:00] writing about it on the basis that it [08:03] was wrong to transmit Western culture [08:05] because Western culture was born in the [08:06] original sins of colonialism and [08:08] imperialism and whiteness and all the [08:10] rest of it. And so you had to teach [08:12] children something completely different [08:14] uh that it was evil and bad and needed [08:17] to be replaced by other stuff which was [08:19] liberal universalism, so-called [08:21] universalist values. there are no [08:23] universalist values. So you had a kind [08:25] of nihilism that was you know crept upon [08:28] everybody and this was in the context of [08:31] uh the idea that the west Britain the [08:34] west America uh the western nation state [08:37] was fundamentally bad and needed to be [08:39] replaced by universalist laws and [08:41] institutions. So that's been going on [08:44] for decades. And what we're living [08:46] through now, which we obviously talk [08:48] about in some detail, is really only [08:51] explicable if you understand that [08:53] context that a wrecking ball was taken [08:56] to the core values and precepts of the [08:58] West founded in the Hebrew Bible [09:01] mediated by Christianity, the [09:03] foundational creed of the West. A very [09:06] explicit uh onslaught on this. And so [09:10] some people think well it's just gone [09:12] far too far and now we have you know [09:14] pred predatory Islamism which perceives [09:18] the weakness and is moving in. Uh and so [09:21] it's understandable that people think [09:23] it's all over you can't possibly come [09:25] back from this. I I don't take that [09:27] view. I mean I you know I'm not known [09:29] for being polyiana but I do believe that [09:32] one of the reasons why this has happened [09:34] is because there's been no resistance. [09:36] um the cultural elites have simply [09:38] either gone along with the flow because [09:41] they're too timid to do anything about [09:43] it or they are uh too venal in terms of [09:48] doing what they think is politically [09:49] expedient or because they don't [09:51] understand what's happening. uh but in [09:56] any event you have now the phenomenon in [09:58] Britain in Europe and I think although [10:01] it takes a different kind of shape in [10:04] America you have the phenomenon of [10:06] millions and millions of ordinary decent [10:09] sane uh people rooted in work, family, [10:15] neighborhood and religion. [10:17] um uh the biblical religion um who are [10:23] not prepared to have this anymore. [10:24] They're not prepared to see their [10:25] culture taken away from them like this [10:27] and they're increasingly voting for [10:29] what's called populist parties. And I [10:31] would include President Trump in that in [10:33] that he is part of the kind of [10:35] resistance against this trend. Whether [10:36] or not you think he is a successful or [10:40] worthy uh proponent of the defense of [10:43] the West is another matter, but that's [10:45] why he was elected. Um, and that's why [10:48] so-called populists, some of which in in [10:50] Britain and Europe, some of which are [10:52] really obnoxious, but they're all coming [10:54] to power or potentially coming to power [10:58] because people are in revolt against [11:00] having their western civilization taken [11:02] away from them. And I draw comfort in [11:04] that, although I think it's a path that [11:06] is full of terrible peril because [11:11] one extreme begets another. And if you [11:13] lurch into the extremes of, you know, [11:15] nihilism and leftism and all that, you [11:17] know, you don't necessarily [11:20] correct that by going back to something [11:22] approaching the decent center. You might [11:24] veer in the completely the opposite [11:26] direction and get autocracy and the end [11:29] of democracy and and all that. Um, but I [11:32] do think that there is everything to [11:33] play for. So I I don't think it's all [11:35] over. [11:37] >> Well, and I so appreciate the the [11:40] balanced approach. I tend to be uh [11:42] accused of being an optimist and paint [11:44] with rosecolored glasses. Uh I'm 41 with [11:47] four kids and I I just believe that this [11:50] is the best time to be alive and I'm uh [11:52] excited. So uh if you're painting a [11:54] picture for someone in my generation, [11:56] I'm raising a family uh and I and I'm [11:59] believing that tomorrow is going to be [12:00] better. What are the things that I have [12:02] to do? What are the things that are left [12:04] to my children? What are some things I [12:06] need to instill in my children so that [12:08] the next generation can overcome this? I [12:11] think you have to, among other things, [12:13] um uh well, the the first thing you have [12:16] to do is I'm sure you're doing this, you [12:18] have to bring them up in what I would [12:20] consider to be a proper Jewish or [12:22] Christian household. By which I mean [12:25] that they are brought up to understand [12:27] the value of precepts such as every [12:31] human life is sacred because it's made [12:33] in the image of God. uh the idea that uh [12:37] justice and compassion are the most [12:40] important things that looking after [12:42] others uh others interests before your [12:44] own is tremendously important that [12:47] justice and the rule of law and [12:48] particularly uh the understanding that [12:50] there should be one law for all are [12:53] absolutely essential to create a [12:54] civilized society indeed to create a [12:56] society at all. So all those things [12:59] which I would say are very firmly uh [13:02] rooted in the Hebrew Bible and in the [13:05] and in Christianity uh those things are [13:08] absolutely essential. And then on top of [13:09] that uh you have to uh as a parent these [13:15] days you have to counter the really uh [13:20] uh desperately dangerous impact and [13:22] influence of the peer group and the peer [13:24] group culture. And I don't just mean [13:26] social media. I mean, you know, [13:30] your children's and your grandchildren's [13:32] peer group and what they are thinking [13:34] and what they're talking about and there [13:36] are many things to say about that, but [13:39] one of the most important things is to [13:41] contradict and contravene as far as you [13:44] can what they're all being taught at [13:46] school or university, which is to hate [13:49] their culture and their society and [13:51] their country, whether it's Britain or [13:53] America. And I think the way one [13:55] counters this is to make sure that they [14:00] know about the greatness of the west. [14:03] That the west really is great. That it [14:06] is simply untrue or possibly amoral or [14:09] immoral uh to say uh as the left does [14:13] that it is racist to say that the west [14:16] is better than any other culture. One [14:18] has to say very firmly it is better. [14:21] Don't you think it's better? for [14:23] example, that uh you you have the same [14:25] that you you your your friends all have [14:27] the same value in terms of their human [14:29] life as you do. Don't you think it's [14:31] better that we treat women as equals? [14:34] Don't you think it's better that we have [14:36] justice and law rather than chaos and [14:39] nihilism? Um uh and these are the [14:42] consequences of doing without all that. [14:44] Make sure that they understand the [14:46] greatness of the West. make sure they [14:48] understand the part played in the [14:51] greatness of the west by biblical values [14:53] because so many people not just young [14:56] people and I'm speaking obviously from [14:58] the perspective of Britain so it may be [15:00] slightly different in America but so [15:02] many people I find believe that in so [15:06] far as the west has great values [15:09] such as uh compassion and um uh um [15:15] looking after others and the value of [15:17] human life in so far as they understand [15:19] those are core values of the west which [15:22] they approve of. They think that they're [15:24] kind of universal. They think that [15:27] they're kind of programmed into us as [15:29] part of our DNA. We're born with them. [15:32] Everybody has them and they're kind of [15:34] knocked out by religion which as we all [15:37] know if we are secular in Britain. Uh [15:40] religion has nothing good to say for it [15:41] at all. It's simply authoritarian. It [15:44] wishes to deprive people of their [15:45] freedom. uh and it wants to make people [15:48] miserable by all the rules it has. Um [15:51] and uh consequently, it's very very [15:53] important that our children and [15:55] grandchildren understand that the values [15:57] that they assume if they're secular, the [16:00] values they assume are [16:03] universal and not universal. They are [16:05] very very specific to both Judaism and [16:09] Christianity without which they would [16:11] not exist and indeed do not exist [16:14] universally at all. The West is the only [16:17] culture, the only civilization which has [16:19] them. Um, and in so far as other [16:22] cultures and civilizations have them a [16:23] bit, it's because they've been [16:24] influenced by the West. So uh that's [16:28] terribly important that people uh [16:30] understand that uh that you know that [16:32] they have pride in and love for their [16:36] country, their nation and their culture [16:39] and understand what makes it all what [16:41] makes all of those so great. [16:44] >> Well, you just made such a great point. [16:45] You know, so many people who would not [16:48] even profess to be people of faith, if [16:51] they grow up in the West, they don't [16:52] even realize how much they're the the [16:55] their the software, so to speak, that [16:57] they're running in their brains is [16:58] biblical, is really based on biblical [17:00] thinking. [17:01] >> The conversation Bill Maher and Ben [17:02] Shapiro had. Ben Shapiro was like, why [17:04] do we agree on 85% of things? You grew [17:08] up here. You you may think that you [17:10] ended up morally on third base is what [17:12] Ben said to Bill. He's like, but you're [17:13] here because of the Bible. you're here [17:15] because of these things. It was a great [17:17] point. [17:18] >> Yeah. And and if we don't invest in it, [17:20] it gets lost in the later generations. [17:21] So Melanie, that brings me to the [17:23] question of Israel. And I want to, you [17:24] know, there's an idea that I've heard [17:26] you share uh about how with, you know, [17:29] with this whole struggle for Western [17:30] civilization. You've said that the West [17:32] will only save itself when it [17:34] understands that Israel and the Jews are [17:36] the solution to its existential [17:38] predicament rather than the problem. And [17:41] I was thinking about that as you were [17:42] talking about about how these populist [17:45] nationalist movements all over the place [17:47] are, you know, are are popping up and [17:49] they're and they're and they're [17:51] ascendant politically. You see it in [17:52] South America, you see it in Europe, you [17:54] see it all over and pretty much [17:56] everywhere. Uh the those movements are [17:59] predominantly no not entirely, but [18:01] predominantly pro-Israel. We're seeing [18:03] that at the same time. populist [18:04] nationalist right-wing movements were [18:06] not always pro-Israel but if you look at [18:07] the VDER supporters the Orban supporters [18:10] the the Malay supporters the Bolsinaro [18:12] supporters go around the world mostly [18:14] these are these are the same people who [18:16] are worried about defending western [18:17] civilization are also pro- Israel in [18:20] America it's a little bit muddier [18:21] because there's some other there's some [18:23] other factors there that have and we've [18:25] talked about that issue a lot here but [18:27] if you could just drill down on this [18:29] whole on on on your assertion that it's [18:32] not just a matter of like as as people [18:34] who care about Israel, we'd really like [18:35] it if people like us. But you're saying [18:36] that it's much more central that getting [18:39] Israel right is actually essential to [18:42] the West getting itself right. What do [18:43] you mean by this? Well, uh, the [18:46] onslaught on Israel and the Jewish [18:48] people has been taking place in my view [18:50] for decades, uh, and has really, uh, [18:54] achieved, uh, terrible critical mass [18:57] since the massacre of, uh, and the the [19:00] invasion by Hamas, uh, in southern [19:02] Israel of October 7, 2023. [19:06] um that uh animus [19:09] um has I think knocked the West off its [19:12] moral compass and it won't recover it [19:15] until it it it it realizes the terrible [19:19] uh thing it's done to Israel because in [19:21] doing this terrible thing to Israel, [19:22] it's done a terrible thing to itself. By [19:24] which I mean this. Um people believe [19:27] that they support the Palestinian cause [19:29] because they think they're supporting [19:30] the oppressed against the oppressor. [19:34] every single part of what they believe [19:36] about the Palestinian cause and about [19:38] Israel is a lie. A falsehood, a [19:40] distortion, [19:42] um uh a warping. It's a hoax. Yeah, [19:46] >> it it is indeed a hoax. Um now, uh that [19:50] has first of all turned so much of the [19:53] West against Israel p per se, against [19:56] Israel itself. Um and it's also as a [19:59] result turned so much of the West [20:01] against the Jewish people. uh because [20:04] it's painted the it's painted Israel [20:07] Israel has been painted as not just [20:08] wrong uh not just some sort of uh [20:12] tyrannical [20:14] uh regime. Uh it's it's been painted as [20:17] absolutely demonic, uniquely demonic. It [20:20] has some sort of evil power over the [20:23] entire world and it's it has a it has [20:26] America in its grip and all the rest of [20:29] it. In other words, it's a deranged [20:33] point of view and it's inverted morality [20:36] completely uh because it inverts [20:40] aggressor and aggress. It regards the [20:43] truly genocidal Palestinian Arabs as the [20:47] victims of the Israelis whose [20:50] self-defense is called genocide. Uh now [20:54] this, as I say, uh has destroyed the [20:57] West's moral compass. it it is it's not [21:00] just that it um uh has done a terrible [21:04] wrong. It's doing a terrible wrong to [21:05] Israel and to the Jews, but it no longer [21:08] knows how to differentiate between truth [21:11] and lies. And it's it's it's more than [21:14] worse even than that because the [21:17] Palestinian cause has become [21:20] uh the default um uh motif of the [21:26] progressive classes in the West. and [21:28] more than just the default motif. I [21:30] mean, you think of other default motifs [21:32] in the past. I don't know um a partate [21:34] South Africa. You know, all progressives [21:37] were against a partate South Africa. But [21:40] this is quite different. This is not [21:42] just uh supporting the Palestinian Arab [21:46] cause. [21:47] This has invested it uh as synonymous [21:51] with morality and conscience. [21:54] um it's become a kind of governing [21:57] political principle across the [21:59] progressive west. Now, if you have uh [22:04] invested [22:05] a creed, the Palestinian cause, which in [22:09] my view, and I think this can be [22:11] demonstrabably shown, is a cause that is [22:16] devoted entirely to the destruction of a [22:20] legitimate sovereign country, Israel, [22:24] the murder, the mass murder of its [22:26] population, [22:27] and worse than that, the theft [22:31] from the Jewish people of their own [22:34] history in their own ancestral homeland [22:37] which the Palestinian Arabs deny and [22:41] attribute to themselves. [22:44] Uh if you are supporting all of that on [22:47] the basis that that stands for [22:49] conscience and morality, then you [22:52] haven't just lost your moral compass, [22:53] you have actively embraced evil. and [22:56] you've actively embraced evil as a moral [23:02] uh um as a moral force in your life. And [23:07] if a civilization has adopted evil as [23:10] its moral load star, it's going to die [23:14] as a civilization. It cannot survive. It [23:18] will destroy itself because it becomes [23:21] evil in itself. [23:23] So that's the first point. The second [23:25] point is more practical, which is that [23:28] through espousing the Palestinian cause, [23:32] the West doesn't understand that it's [23:34] embraced, if I can mix my metaphor, a [23:38] Trojan horse for Islamization. [23:42] The West's progressive classes have told [23:44] themselves that uh the um Middle East [23:49] ampass uh between Israel and the [23:52] Palestinian Arabs is a fight over the [23:56] division of land uh between two peoples [23:59] who have a legitimate um claim to that [24:02] land. What people in the West who [24:04] believe all that don't realize at all is [24:08] that from the get-go, the Palestinian [24:11] Arab claim to the land of Israel, to the [24:15] Holy Land, uh was always an Islamist [24:18] cause. It was a religious cause. Right [24:22] back in the 1920s [24:24] when the then grand mufty of Jerusalem, [24:27] Hajamin al- Husini, who incidentally was [24:30] a close ally of Hitler and who promised [24:34] Hitler that if Hitler won the war, he [24:36] Hamin al- Husini would destroy every Jew [24:40] not just in this in in in pre-Israel [24:42] Palestine but every Jew in the Middle [24:44] East. uh Hajamin Al Husini uh [24:49] incited [24:50] uh the Arab mobs in pre-Israel Palestine [24:54] to pilgrims and mass murder and [24:56] slaughter of the Jews who were there on [25:00] the basis that on the hysterical claim [25:02] that they were trying to destroy Islam, [25:05] they intended to destroy the holy sites [25:09] uh of uh what we call Temple Mount, what [25:12] they call Alaxa. Um, and it's amazing, [25:15] but the language that he used in the [25:18] 1920s is almost identical to the [25:20] language used by Mahmud Abbas today, the [25:22] leader of the Palestinian Authority, who [25:24] has said on more than one occasion of [25:27] Jews who go up onto Temple Mount, uh, [25:31] get them off with their filthy feet. [25:33] Now, the British and other progressives [25:37] who support the Palestinian cause have [25:39] no idea that this is uh, an Islamist [25:42] cause. [25:43] Um instead they think that the uh [25:47] Palestinian Muslims are uh heroic in [25:52] resisting the oppressors who are uh [25:55] Israelis and Zionist Jews and [25:58] consequently uh they are completely [26:01] unable to grasp that Islam poses the [26:04] same threat to them in the west as it [26:07] does to Israel. Okay, Israel is on the [26:09] front line. The threat is much more [26:11] immediate. Not just immediate, but it's [26:13] here every day. Every day there are [26:15] Jews, Israelis, Jews and non-Jews. [26:18] Israelis being attacked and uh violently [26:21] attacked and many have been have been [26:23] murdered. Attacks going on all the time, [26:25] never even reported in in in Britain. [26:28] But that's another matter. Um, but they [26:31] don't realize that the people coming for [26:34] the Israelis [26:36] say and have said for years and say it [26:39] over and over again, first [26:42] Israel, then Rome. First we come for the [26:46] Jews and then we come for the [26:48] Christians. And indeed they see it as an [26:51] essential precursor to destroying the [26:54] West. They believe that the Jews are [26:57] behind the West. The west is behind [26:59] modernity. Behind modernity is the west. [27:02] Behind the west are the Jews. So since [27:04] they believe that modernity is the great [27:07] foe of Islam and is going to destroy [27:10] Islam if it's not if it's not fought and [27:12] since they believe the West is behind [27:14] modernity and since they believe the [27:16] Jews are behind the West, they have to [27:17] get rid of the Jews in order to proceed [27:22] to destroy the West. and they say it [27:24] over and over again, but the West [27:27] doesn't hear this because the West has [27:28] it fixed in its mind now that Israel is [27:32] the supreme actor in the Middle East [27:34] drama. That Israel when it acts in a [27:37] military manner, when it goes to war in [27:39] Gaza, when it goes to war in Lebanon, it [27:42] is the aggressor and the people it is [27:44] against are the victims. And [27:47] consequently the west is simply unable [27:49] to grasp that the people coming for [27:52] Israel and the Jews coming for them. So [27:55] to conclude this little uh uh passage um [27:59] on both the level of uh the cultural uh [28:04] assumptions of the west and on the level [28:07] of the elementary need to uh defend [28:11] themselves against a very real threat [28:13] posed by predatory Islam. uh the west is [28:18] completely on the wrong page because it [28:21] sees Israel and the Jewish people in [28:24] this utterly false and warped light and [28:27] consequently uh it is doing itself [28:30] untold harm at the present and it is [28:35] leaving itself progressively less and [28:38] less defended against what it needs to [28:40] defend itself against. So that's why I [28:42] say the West is not going to save itself [28:44] unless it learns to love Israel and the [28:47] Jewish people. [28:49] >> You have a a new book called Fighting [28:51] the Hate. And I think you're absolutely [28:53] correct. Israel's on the front lines and [28:56] eventually this does come to our [28:57] doorstep. Right now we're seeing it in [29:00] protests and anti-semitism and in hate [29:03] crimes and in various things that are [29:05] always uh you know equated correlated. [29:09] You have Islamophobia and anti-semitism [29:11] and everything is seen as the same. What [29:14] are we getting wrong about fighting the [29:16] hate? What what do we need to do [29:18] differently uh to fight anti-semitism? [29:22] How do we need to see those terms? And [29:24] are there things that we should be doing [29:25] legislatively or otherwise to fight the [29:28] hate? [29:30] >> Well, I think you're talking about as a [29:32] culture, as a society rather than than [29:34] individuals. First thing is that I [29:36] really hate the term anti-semitism. [29:39] Anti-semitism is a nonsense term. [29:41] There's no such thing as semitism to be [29:43] anti. Uh anti-semitism was a term that [29:45] was invented by an anti-semite [29:48] in the 19th century um who uh was trying [29:52] to give old-fashioned murderous Jew [29:54] hatred a pattern of of modernity and [29:57] respectability by making it racial [30:00] rather than theological. Uh but for one [30:02] of a better word, we use anti-semitism. [30:04] I sometimes use Jew hatred which is [30:06] rather ugly but nevertheless. Um so uh [30:12] what can we do uh about anti-semitism? [30:16] Uh uh is that the question? [30:17] >> What should we be doing differently to [30:19] combat the hate? [30:20] >> Yeah. Well, um [30:24] there are many things we should be doing [30:25] differently. But as a society, we should [30:27] understand that anti-Zionism and [30:30] anti-Israelism are not something [30:32] different from Jew hatred. Now this is a [30:34] great controversy obviously uh people [30:37] say uh [30:40] anti-ionism or anti-Israelism is [30:43] political uh we can hate a country we [30:47] can hate the creed that started that [30:49] country and that's not that doesn't mean [30:52] that we are prejudiced against the [30:53] people it just means that we are we have [30:56] a view and we're entitled to that view [30:58] and it's a perfectly respectable view uh [31:00] that doesn't like the political ideology [31:02] that created the country. And that's [31:05] very different from hating Jews as [31:08] because anti-semitism is hating Jews as [31:10] people. And we know that's wrong to hate [31:13] Jews as people because we mustn't hate [31:15] people as people. But we can hate [31:17] politics as politics. That sounds great [31:21] in theory. In this case, it is absolute [31:25] nonsense for two main reasons. First of [31:28] all, anti-Zionism stroke anti-Israelism [31:32] by an amazing coincidence not happens to [31:36] have precisely the same characteristics [31:38] as old-fashioned anti-semitism. By which [31:40] I mean it's not just a prejudice. It's [31:42] not just a bigotry. It is a completely [31:44] unique attitude which is deranged. It [31:47] invests uh it invested over centuries [31:51] the Jews, the Jewish people with demonic [31:54] qualities. Uh obsessionally, [31:57] it was obsessed by these demonic [31:59] qualities. Uh it uh regarded them as [32:02] some sort of supernatural entity that [32:04] held the world in its power at the very [32:06] same time as they were lower than [32:08] vermin. Uh it held them uh to be in [32:11] control of what was going on in the [32:14] world. all powerful, a coveret [32:16] conspiracy against people's interests, [32:19] people who put their own interests [32:20] first, people who were rapacious, people [32:23] who were cruel, and all rest of it. And [32:25] double standards. You held them to a [32:27] standard you held to you held no other [32:30] people to that standard. And more more [32:32] than that, you held them to a standard [32:33] which is completely impossible. All [32:35] these things happen to be the [32:37] characteristics of anti-Zionism, [32:40] anti-Israelism. None of it is based on [32:43] truth. People say, "Well, we're entitled [32:46] to criticize Israel like any other [32:47] country, aren't we?" Well, if only it [32:50] were criticizing Israel like any other [32:53] country. The whole point is it's not [32:55] it's not criticism. It is derangement. [32:58] There is no other country or people or [33:00] creed in the world which is treated with [33:02] this kind of derangement. So from that [33:05] point of view, it's the same thing. And [33:08] then at a deeper level um this [33:11] distinction between politics okay to [33:14] criticize people not okay to criticize [33:18] doesn't quite cut it because what [33:21] anti-ionism does [33:24] is it seeks to [33:26] uh uh dismember Judaism. Uh it seeks to [33:30] say that um Israel is one thing uh [33:36] Judaism is another thing and you can [33:38] have Judaism without Israel. Uh and that [33:41] by criticizing Israel uh well not [33:44] criticizing Judaism, all we're saying is [33:46] that Jews should do without Israel. If [33:49] you're anti-ionist, [33:50] you believe that the Jews should do [33:52] without Israel and then everything would [33:54] be fine and then we would really like [33:57] the Jewish people because we love the [33:59] Jewish people. We just hate Israel. [34:02] Well, that doesn't work because what [34:03] they don't realize is that they many [34:07] people think that Judaism is just a [34:08] religion, a religion like Christianity, [34:11] like Islam, like Hinduism, like [34:12] Buddhism. It's not. Judaism is unique. [34:17] uh it is a kind of three-legged stool [34:19] consisting of the people, the faith and [34:22] the land. Uh Judaism basically consists [34:25] of the belief by the Jewish people or by [34:29] Jews uh that uh the Jewish people were [34:32] singled out by the Almighty to set up a [34:37] particular kind of society which would [34:40] be an ideal kind of society living by a [34:44] set of laws given to that people alone [34:47] in the land of Israel in the promised [34:51] land in the holy land. And if you look [34:54] at Jewish uh rules and regulations, the [34:57] laws that govern observant Jewish life, [35:00] and there are many of them, um virtually [35:03] all of them are rooted either explicitly [35:07] or implicitly in the land. [35:10] uh and consequently [35:12] if you attack Zionism as the right of [35:15] the Jewish people to live in that land [35:19] then you are attacking Judaism itself. [35:22] You may not be attacking Jewish people [35:24] as people but you are attacking Judaism. [35:28] Uh because you cannot have Judaism [35:30] without the land. That does not mean [35:34] that if you are a Jew who doesn't like [35:38] Israel, doesn't consider yourself a [35:40] Zionist, doesn't want to go and live [35:42] there, or if you are a Jew who doesn't [35:45] like religion, uh doesn't observe any of [35:48] the rules and regulations and laws, um [35:52] really couldn't care less about the [35:54] religious part of it. It doesn't mean [35:55] you're not a Jew. Of course, you're [35:57] still a Jew. But it does mean that if [35:59] you try and dismember Judaism by [36:01] removing the land from the faith and the [36:04] people, then you destroy Judaism. And [36:06] that's what anti-ionism is. Whether or [36:08] not people understand it, that is what [36:10] they're doing. They are taking a hammer [36:13] and hitting Judaism itself. And that is [36:17] uh bigotry that's given to no other uh [36:20] no other creed on earth. Uh and it's [36:23] because Judaism is unlike any other [36:26] creed on earth. Well, Melie, you you [36:29] just maybe I'm being too associative [36:31] here, but I'm I'm thinking back to what [36:33] you were saying about the internal decay [36:36] of the West and and that and how, you [36:38] know, through education and through uh [36:41] this flight from from faith that that [36:45] the West has kind of lost its moral [36:46] compass, lost its sense of identity. And [36:49] and bringing that into what you just [36:51] said about this abhorance that you have [36:53] with so many people in the west of [36:54] Israel being a nation like a nation [36:56] state of you know a good old-fashioned [36:59] nation with its own faith and its own [37:01] identity in its land. [37:03] >> And to bring it into the political realm [37:05] of what we're dealing with today, I [37:06] think one of the big struggles we have [37:08] now is that ever since World War II, it [37:12] seems that the West doesn't have the [37:14] conviction to defeat evil anymore. every [37:17] conflict kind of ends in this negotiated [37:19] settlement that you know we'll work out [37:20] some way and it seems to be like you [37:22] know the moral high ground. Oh, we'll [37:23] come to a negotiation and the evil [37:25] actors will remain in power and and [37:27] we'll have less wars. But no one ever [37:30] puts their life on the line to destroy [37:32] evil anymore as the great generation [37:34] that fought World War II did so [37:36] valiantly against the Imperial Japanese [37:38] against Nazi Germany. And I'm wondering [37:40] if some of the the the vitriol at Israel [37:45] is that Israel is actually behaving like [37:47] a nation state that believes in its [37:49] survival that's willing to have [37:51] sacrifices on the battlefield to ensure [37:53] that survival to point to evil and say [37:56] you're evil. We're good. We're going to [37:58] destroy you and we're going to drive to [37:59] victory. And the rest of the world seems [38:02] sees that as excessive and and and uh [38:05] and and and and and recoils from it. And [38:07] I wonder how much of it is just uh is [38:10] just a resentment that Israel has [38:13] something that they've lost. [38:15] >> Very much so. Uh I mean there are many [38:17] aspects to what you're saying. Um uh so [38:21] one thing that immediately uh comes into [38:24] my mind is the um the understanding the [38:29] insight uh voiced by a number of people [38:32] that if you want to understand the [38:35] mutations of anti-semitism [38:37] uh you look at the governing um creed of [38:42] the society of the time so when it was [38:44] when it was um uh Christianity it was um [38:49] against Christian it was it was [38:51] theological uh when it was racial it was [38:54] um they were persecuted as uh Jewish [38:57] people were persecuted on the basis of [38:58] their supposed race and today uh the [39:02] religion is liberal universalism which [39:05] denies the um [39:09] the need for and the rightness of the [39:12] western nation state. Now, Israel was [39:16] the paradigm nation state. Asian ancient [39:18] Israel was the paradigm nation state. [39:20] You know, the Jewish people were a [39:22] nation. They had their own kingdom. That [39:24] was the nation state. And that was the [39:27] pattern. It it was a template if you [39:29] like for what later was was um [39:33] interpreted by the people uh the the [39:36] Puritan Christians who founded basically [39:39] uh Britain's uh constitutional monarchy [39:42] and therefore representative democracy [39:45] and they went on to America to found the [39:47] same thing in America. They drew very [39:50] explicitly upon the ancient kingdom of [39:53] Israel as the paradigm nation state. how [39:56] a how how a how a how a society should [39:59] best govern itself. Uh so that's [40:02] absolutely crucial at this in this [40:04] period when as you say you know the [40:06] nation state is um is under uh such uh [40:11] uh such onslaught such such an onslaught [40:14] um but uh you touch upon something [40:17] deeper which is resentment. I think he [40:18] used the word resentment and I think [40:21] there is something much deeper than just [40:23] a kind of a kind of intellectual um [40:26] disdain uh for the the this this nation [40:30] state. Um it's and as you say it is [40:34] fighting evil. It is uh it I think it [40:39] goes back to the ancient [40:42] um resentment [40:44] uh of the Jewish people as being people [40:47] who did more than anything else set the [40:52] parameters of the distinction between [40:54] right and wrong and how you should stand [40:56] up for right against wrong. [40:59] um and said that everybody else should [41:01] do that and laid down very exacting [41:04] rules which impinge upon ourselves about [41:07] how we take responsibility for our own [41:09] actions. Uh and you know many Jews don't [41:13] live up to those rules. Uh but the out [41:15] in the outside world it caused a great [41:17] deal of resentment that uh that the Jews [41:20] set themselves out to be more moral than [41:23] the rest of us. That isn't true but [41:25] that's how it was seen. And here you [41:28] have a country, the state of Israel, [41:30] which is living like that, whose army is [41:33] the most moral in the history of the [41:36] world. There is no more moral army than [41:38] Israel's. And look how it's presented. [41:41] It is presented as the most evil and [41:44] cruel and rapacious army in the world. I [41:47] mean, a moment's thought would tell you [41:49] this is absolutely bizarre. I mean, how [41:52] can it possibly be more uh dreadful than [41:55] all the armies of all the tyrannies in [41:58] the world uh which are you know all the [42:01] all the millions of people innocent [42:03] people they have just destroyed and you [42:07] know the evidence is in that Israel [42:10] has taken more care to avoid [42:14] unnecessary avoidable loss of civilian [42:17] life in Gaza than could have been [42:20] attempted or has been attempted ed by [42:21] any army in the modern world or in any [42:24] army anywhere in the world ever. U and [42:27] this has been completely inverted. Now [42:29] why is this? Because people can't bear [42:33] the fact that the Jews have done this [42:36] because it will it means that you know [42:38] once again they're showing us that [42:40] they're more moral than us. No, we know [42:44] that's a lie. We know that's the way [42:46] they get away with all the crimes [42:49] they've ever committed against all of us [42:52] at all times. So, there's that going on. [42:55] Um, and allied to that is the belief [42:59] that [43:00] Jews don't fight and win. Jews die. That [43:04] is their role in the world, to die. and [43:08] then we can grieve over them and really [43:11] feel good about the way we grieve over [43:14] them. But the idea that living Jews [43:17] actually kill people in order they [43:20] should live and that the people they [43:21] kill are bad and that's why they're [43:24] being killed that goes so much against [43:27] the grain of what we the West believe [43:30] about the Jewish people. So I think that [43:33] you know and there are many other things [43:34] to say about this animus against Israel [43:37] but I think these are [43:40] pathologies in the west which have been [43:45] I was going to say allowed to come out. [43:48] I would say encouraged to come out. I've [43:51] spoken before about the the Trojan horse [43:52] or the Palestine cause and there are [43:54] many other things that I think have have [43:57] encouraged them and in incentivized them [44:00] uh to come out. Uh but that's what is [44:03] that's what is drawn. I think it's a [44:05] very complicated picture. It's a very [44:07] very ugly picture. It is so disturbing [44:10] that few people are prepared to look at [44:12] it squarely in the eye including many [44:15] Jews. They're not prepared to look at it [44:17] uh for what it is. They want to find [44:19] scapegoats. If only Netanyahu weren't [44:22] prime minister. If only there wasn't, [44:24] you know, these dreadful people, [44:26] Bengavir and Smottridge, everything [44:28] would be fine for the Jewish people. [44:31] >> Oh, the world would love us, right? [44:32] >> The world would love us. So, this is a [44:34] level of denial which is itself a [44:37] pathology uh which comes, I think, out [44:39] of a tragic sense of of of displacement [44:42] in the Jewish world, the [44:44] non-Israel-based Jewish world. But [44:47] basically you're you're dealing with a [44:48] set of pathologies here which are very [44:50] difficult to understand and for many [44:54] people even more difficult to face up [44:55] to. [44:57] >> How much do you think it's ignorance, [45:00] selfdeception? [45:02] At what layer is our our modern [45:06] secular world missing this? Are we [45:09] willingly deceived? Are we are we just [45:12] ignorant? Is there information we don't [45:13] have? Because the the red green alliance [45:16] does not make any sense to me. The [45:17] queers for Palestine, all of this stuff. [45:20] So, are we just willingly selfdeceived? [45:23] Are we ignorant or is there something [45:24] more nefarious going on here? You [45:26] mentioned the word encourage there. Uh, [45:28] you know, is there stuff going on behind [45:30] the scenes that that's demonic that I [45:32] mean, you could take it a number of [45:33] different directions, but uh what what's [45:35] your take on that? [45:36] >> Well, there's certainly stuff behind the [45:38] scenes. I don't know about demonic, but [45:40] um there's, you know, it's very [45:42] earthbound. Uh there are earthbound [45:45] regimes, Iran, um Russia, uh China who [45:51] are busy stirring the pot. They're [45:52] producing, you know, false information [45:54] and distorted information uh on uh uh [45:58] social media now even more so with AI, [46:01] which credulous people believe. So [46:04] that's what that's what I was really [46:05] getting at when I said it's being [46:07] encouraged. [46:08] >> Uh but where is it come from? Um uh well [46:14] uh you know it's it's it it comes from [46:19] an illability to see evil which is what [46:22] Pesak was just talking about which comes [46:23] from the denial of religion basically. [46:27] Um [46:29] uh [46:32] there are many aspects to this um [46:35] phenomenon. [46:37] uh [46:39] you know you can light upon what's been [46:42] done to our young people in universities [46:45] and you know the falsehoods they've been [46:47] they've been taught. Um but the kind of [46:50] spiritual malaise [46:52] uh is due I think to the fact that God [46:56] was dethroned and man was put in his [46:59] place. Hyperindividualism [47:03] dominates everything. Um, the world has [47:06] been constructed in that image. Uh, and [47:10] it's gone terribly wrong. [47:14] Yeah. [47:17] Yeah. Wow. That's it. It's sobering. You [47:19] know, I'm I'm I'm looking for some good [47:20] news here, Melanie. You know, I'm [47:22] thinking, you know, you talk about God [47:24] being dethroned, and we know that God uh [47:27] you know, ultimately God does reign [47:28] supreme. And uh when we think about what [47:30] the light at the end of this long tunnel [47:32] is, obviously God is going to be the [47:33] answer. I think we're all waiting for [47:35] some kind of revival to hit the west so [47:38] that things can somehow turn around. Uh, [47:40] you know, give us a ray of hope. You [47:42] know, on your optimistic days, how do [47:44] you view things? [47:45] >> Well, we'll end on that note. [47:47] >> Politically, as I say, there are [47:49] millions of people who, you know, want [47:50] their country and their nation, their [47:52] civilization, their culture back. So, [47:54] that's that's optimistic. Um then within [47:58] the west um I think there is [48:02] notwithstanding everything we've been [48:03] talking about among young people there [48:05] is a turning back towards religion. uh [48:08] in America I believe is towards [48:09] Catholicism for reasons that I don't [48:11] fully understand but I would imagine [48:13] it's because in a world which has become [48:16] so um disordered a religion that has [48:20] very very strong structure uh is very [48:23] appealing to people who are looking for [48:26] some sort of anchor to their lives I do [48:29] believe I mean Victor Frankl the great [48:30] psycho psychoan analyst um coined the [48:35] phrase you know man's search for meaning [48:38] uh and uh you know he came to that [48:41] conclusion from the camps from the [48:43] extermination camps uh that is what [48:46] distinguishes mankind uh from the animal [48:50] kingdom among other things. Um but it's [48:53] a very it it is a very strong [48:55] characteristic of mankind that we are [48:57] kind of programmed to search for a [49:00] meaning in our lives. And we're living [49:02] in a world where um you know if you're [49:06] told that you are just a bag of atoms [49:09] whirling aimlessly through space, a [49:12] random bag of atoms, then you are at the [49:15] mercy of fate. [49:17] Nothing makes any sense. you're at the [49:20] mercy of random events which we call [49:22] fate and consequently you're powerless [49:24] and if you're powerless you have no [49:27] agency over what happens to you then you [49:30] really are miserable so I think people [49:33] are searching for a structure and a [49:36] purpose to their lives which which make [49:38] them feel less powerless and I think [49:41] they're being drawn to organized [49:43] religion by which I mean the kind of [49:45] religion that has rules um which I think [49:49] is very encouraging actually. Uh so I [49:52] wouldn't like to exaggerate the extent [49:54] to which that movement is happening but [49:55] it is happening uh in a way that and and [49:58] and and in a in an era where it was it's [50:00] it's long been said it couldn't possibly [50:02] happen. Well, it is happening. Uh and [50:05] the third reason for my ultimism is [50:07] because I live here in Israel. Um, it's [50:10] the most crazy, insane, irritating, [50:15] infuriating place. And it is the most [50:19] heartening, the most optimistic, the [50:21] most lifegiving place you can possibly [50:24] imagine simultaneously. [50:27] Um, and uh, [50:30] >> it's so exciting. It's the most exciting [50:32] place in the world. Well, I do feel, you [50:34] know, living here in Jerusalem [50:36] especially, you know, I'm at the center [50:38] of uh the universe and the center of the [50:42] Jewish story which is unfolding. And I [50:44] do believe the Jewish story despite its [50:46] tragic [50:48] aspects and you know what happened on [50:52] October 7 and subsequently uh was not [50:55] only tragic but but life shattering for [50:58] so many people and for the society. I [51:00] think that Israel and the Jewish world [51:03] more generally will never be the same [51:05] again. It has it has had the same kind [51:08] of effect on a smaller scale obviously [51:10] but had the same kind of effect of a [51:12] lasting nature going through generations [51:15] that the Shawad did that the Holocaust [51:17] did. Um there are families and societ [51:20] and the society here has been altered in [51:22] a way which on October 6, 2023 nobody [51:26] would have anticipated. Nobody ever [51:28] thought this would happen, but it has [51:29] changed. It has changed it. And changed [51:31] it in many ways for the better. It's [51:33] become stronger. It's become more [51:35] focused. It's become more aware of um [51:39] what binds everybody together. And I'm [51:42] speaking from a a a a country which is [51:45] seriously insane in its politics, where [51:48] everyone's at each other's throats the [51:49] whole time, where everyone is screaming [51:52] at each other, where people are trying [51:54] to tear each other's tear each other to [51:56] pieces in the political arena. So how [51:58] can I possibly say this? Because when it [52:00] comes to it, you look at the society, it [52:03] is teeming with children. It is teeming [52:07] with children. It is bucking the trend [52:09] of the entire western world that every [52:12] woman on average is having between three [52:14] and four children per per woman. And [52:17] these are women, you know, they're not [52:19] stuck at the kitchen sink. They are [52:21] working. They're working women. Why are [52:24] they having why are these families [52:25] having getting bigger and bigger? Why [52:28] are they having so many children? [52:29] Because they want to have Israeli [52:31] children. They want to have children who [52:33] will carry on the culture. Because they [52:36] believe in their culture. They believe [52:38] in their nation. They want it to [52:40] continue because they love it because [52:43] they know what they are and they know [52:45] what it is. Now this is to put it mildly [52:48] the most optimistic place you could [52:50] possibly live in because what country in [52:53] the west has that feeling? What country [52:56] in the west is showing it has that [52:58] feeling by producing more children than [53:01] it's losing more people through its [53:03] children than it's losing through death? [53:05] No one. So living here gives me that [53:09] tremendous sense of optimism. First of [53:10] all that Israel will not only survive [53:14] but will thrive. I not for a moment [53:17] being polyanarish. Israel may be in for [53:20] even more horrible things that are [53:22] happening. Uh you know constantly Jews [53:25] here, Israelis here are under attack. I [53:28] say Israelis because there are uh [53:30] Muslims who are being killed and [53:32] attacked. There are Drews who are being [53:34] killed and attacked. there are [53:35] Christians who are being killed and [53:36] attacked but nevertheless Israelis are [53:38] being you know attacked the whole time [53:41] um uh so and and you know who knows [53:44] what's going to happen geopolitically [53:45] who knows whether Iran is going to be [53:47] allowed to survive and is going to start [53:49] you know doing stuff again uh we can see [53:52] you know there were kites coming over [53:54] from Gaza misrepresented by the wicked [53:59] wicked British media I don't know about [54:01] America as oh just children's toys. [54:06] >> The same here. [54:06] >> It's a signal. A signal. We're still [54:10] here. We sent over kites that burned [54:13] your fields and then we sent over people [54:16] hanging on kites to murder you. We're [54:19] still here. It's that. And this is still [54:23] happening and it may well happen. I [54:25] don't know what's going to happen in the [54:26] future. So, what I'm saying is, you [54:28] know, the Israelis may be in for even [54:30] tougher times. We don't know. But I have [54:32] absolute faith absolute faith that [54:35] Israel will survive this and will [54:38] thrive. Why? Because it wants to. [54:41] Because it wants to live. The West at [54:44] the moment doesn't want to live. [54:46] Millions do, and let's hope they win, [54:49] but the elites that run the West don't [54:51] want it to live. So, you know, Israel [54:54] will live. It will survive. It will [54:56] thrive. And I hope that the west, you [54:59] know, with all these positive things [55:01] that are happening, I think light is [55:02] beginning to dawn in various places. [55:05] Let's hope, you know, more happens in [55:08] that way. More lights dawn. But I do [55:10] think that there's absolutely everything [55:12] to play for in the West that there are [55:14] millions of very good, sane, decent [55:17] people who understand what the stakes [55:19] are and are prepared to fight uh for [55:22] their culture, for their civilization. [55:24] And I uh think that um it is more than [55:28] possible uh that they can win. [55:32] >> Amen. Well, thank you Melanie. This was [55:34] an extraordinary conversation. Thank you [55:37] for being on with us on [55:38] Shouldertoshoulder. [55:40] >> Thank you very much for having me. I [55:41] very much enjoyed it. [55:42] >> And thank you for listening to today's [55:44] episode. If you like this episode, [55:46] please like, rate, share, do all the [55:48] things that you're supposed to do. [55:50] Subscribe on Patreon. 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