Transcript [00:00] In the Quran, through the story of Lot, [00:01] homosexuality is condemned and four of [00:03] the five major schools of Islamic law [00:05] think it should be punishable by death. [00:07] In fact, 24 countries where Islam is the [00:09] state religion have criminal penalties [00:11] for homosexuality. Eight of them is [00:13] punishable by death. That's in [00:14] Afghanistan, Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, [00:16] UAE, Yemen. They kill you for being gay. [00:19] >> Where does it say in the Quran or the [00:21] teaching of Prophet Muhammad that [00:22] someone who has who is homosexual gay [00:25] should be executed? [00:26] >> You don't need to convince me, mate. You [00:28] need to convince the eight Islamic [00:29] countries that are killing them. The [00:30] people are being thrown off rooftops. Go [00:31] have your argument with Hamas. Go have [00:33] your argument with ISIS. You don't need [00:34] to convince me. [00:35] >> Hey everyone. [00:36] Um so, I'm still in the US. Uh my son [00:39] and I are going to be traveling back to [00:41] Israel over the course of the next uh uh [00:44] couple days. [00:46] We're almost done with our trip. [00:47] Sleeping in a different bed every night. [00:50] And uh [00:51] it's been a very very interesting trip. [00:54] And now I want to show you a clip from [00:55] the Oxford Union debates. [00:59] Tommy Robinson [01:01] was arguing the motion the rest the West [01:05] is is correct [01:07] is right to be suspicious of Islam. That [01:10] was the proposition that he was arguing. [01:13] And normally when I would show you a [01:14] clip of a debate it's because I want to [01:16] show you what is being said in it. [01:19] Meaning I would be reacting to what [01:20] Tommy said. And I'm going to react a [01:22] little bit to what Tommy said, but [01:23] that's not really the point I want to [01:24] make in this video. It's not why I'm [01:26] making it. [01:27] Because what I want to focus on in this [01:29] clip is the people who are interrupting [01:33] him and what they're [01:34] saying. Because if you watch closely, [01:36] and I mean closely, [01:38] because it moves fast, the people who [01:39] are trying to shut him down [01:42] are going to be making two arguments in [01:43] the space of a few minutes that [01:46] cannot both be true at the same time. [01:49] First they're going to demand that he [01:51] prove that [01:52] his claims come straight from the [01:53] Islamic texts, from the Quran. [01:57] And then a few minutes later when he [01:58] shows them [01:59] uh [02:00] behavior that is coming straight from [02:02] the Quran and cites the Quran [02:04] and the behavior being in the name of [02:05] Islam, they're going to flip the [02:06] standard and say that that's not real [02:08] Islam. [02:10] Uh the text doesn't count unless it's [02:11] being practiced and practice [02:14] doesn't count unless it's textual. [02:16] Whatever, watch for it. I'll stop the [02:17] clip and I'll explain it as it happens. [02:18] There's also a moment where one of the [02:20] people interrupting him is going to [02:22] invoke Jewish law as a way defending [02:26] Islam as uh you know, a comparison to [02:29] Jewish law and it doesn't defend Islam [02:32] and I'll explain exactly why when we get [02:33] there because [02:35] uh [02:35] >> [snorts] [02:35] >> there there is a there's an honest way [02:37] to approach the Jewish law argument and [02:39] Tommy doesn't doesn't deal with it. Not [02:41] that he should deal with it. He actually [02:42] dealt with it in the right way. It was [02:43] not relevant to this debate. [02:45] But we'll see that as well. So, I'm [02:46] going to be pausing this clip a few [02:47] times. [02:49] And uh yeah, let's get to it. Now, I [02:50] also I didn't start [02:52] the clip of Tommy speaking in the Oxford [02:54] debate. We're not playing the thing. I [02:56] left out the first few minutes. [02:58] Uh it was kind of introduction and [02:59] saying some things that aren't relevant [03:00] to the points I want to make. [03:02] Uh but let's take a look at Tommy. So, [03:05] let me pull this up on screen. [03:08] Here we go. Add to stage and [03:13] the clip. Here it is. [03:16] >> Anyway, let's look for some common [03:18] ground. Okay? That's what we want to [03:19] find. I've I've I've seen how this [03:21] works. And listen, I'll take as many [03:22] questions as you want at the end. I'm [03:23] just going to finish my speech. [03:25] How many of you [03:27] in here are gay? [03:28] You don't actually need to put your [03:29] hands up. Okay? [03:31] In the Quran, through the story of Lot, [03:33] homosexuality is homosexuality is [03:35] condemned and four of the five major [03:37] schools of Islamic law think it should [03:39] be punishable by death. [03:42] Maybe I'm going to I'm going to I'm [03:43] going to finish my speech. In fact, 24 [03:45] countries where Islam is the state [03:46] religion have criminal penalties for [03:48] homosexuality. Eight of them is [03:50] punishable by death. [03:52] So, I want have maybe if you gay you [03:53] might maybe be a little bit suspicious [03:55] of this. [03:57] That's in Afghanistan, Iran, Qatar, [03:59] Saudi Arabia, UAE, Yemen, they kill you [04:02] for being gay. [04:04] Who's protesting about this? When these [04:06] countries state legislators or [04:07] governments visit our country, who [04:09] protest? Oh well, I just love to finish [04:10] with this. [04:12] >> Point of order has been raised, [04:14] President. [04:15] >> As per discussions with previous [04:16] speakers, you did agree that we would [04:18] take point of information from [04:20] fellow speaker, guests, and audience [04:22] members. If you can respect that as part [04:23] of a constructive debate, it would be [04:25] very much appreciated. [04:25] >> Thank the President for that point of [04:26] order. Mr. Robinson, I think the idea [04:29] that the President's putting across is [04:30] >> Take the question first. [04:32] >> Take a question every now and then. Take [04:33] a question every now and then. Thank [04:35] you. [04:36] >> Can we at least agree killing people [04:38] because they're homosexuals is never [04:39] okay? It was never okay then, [04:42] and it's not okay now. [04:44] >> [snorts] [04:45] >> Now, [04:46] I'll have to listen more. [04:48] I see how this works. [04:50] >> Where does it say in the Quran or the [04:52] teaching of Prophet Muhammad that [04:53] someone who has who is homosexual, gay, [04:56] should be executed? [04:57] >> You don't need to convince me, mate. You [04:58] need to convince the Islamic countries [05:00] that are killing them. The people are [05:01] being thrown off rooftops. Go have your [05:02] argument with Hamas. Go have your [05:03] argument with ISIS. You don't need to [05:05] convince me. Now, please, if I can just [05:07] finish. Again, [05:09] again, let's talk about sex, okay? [05:12] How many of you have had sex since you [05:14] got here? I want to see your hands up. [05:17] I knew that was coming, right? [05:19] You see, [05:21] you see, the Quran prescribes 100 lashes [05:24] for the male and the female involved in [05:25] what Islam considers illegal sexual [05:27] intercourse. That's the Quran 24:2. [05:30] But, Islamic scholars have gone all in [05:31] on this issue, yeah? Not just lashing, [05:33] all schools of Islamic law prescribe [05:36] death by stoning if a person is married. [05:41] And the Shia school, Jafari, prescribes [05:43] 100 lashes before you're stoned to [05:46] death. So, maybe if you think no one [05:48] believes in this If you think no one [05:49] believes in this barbaric stuff in 2023, [05:52] the head Imam of the Green Lane Mosque, [05:54] the head Imam, you can watch his video, [05:56] actually gives a seminar to his [05:57] congregation on how we keep the modesty [06:00] of the woman before we smash rocks at [06:02] her head. So, you see, she has to be [06:03] buried up to a certain level to to [06:06] preserve her modesty. [06:07] >> Kind of makes sense. [06:09] Is what you are discussing not abuse of [06:12] Islamic scripture, not actually what is [06:14] discussed in the Islamic scripture? Give [06:15] me examples from Islamic scripture in [06:17] Islamic law, not cherry-picked examples [06:19] that have been taken out of context. [06:20] Give me examples from the verses of the [06:22] Quran that back up your arguments. [06:24] >> Sh- Should she [06:27] >> Okay, let's pause it there for the first [06:29] uh for the first pause. [06:31] Um [06:36] The standard being set right now by the [06:38] room is show us it's show us that it's [06:41] really textually authoritatively in [06:43] there, not somebody misreading. Uh you [06:47] know, not uh what this Imam said, right? [06:49] It's a completely fair standard, by the [06:50] way. It's how you should argue a [06:51] religious text. I just want you to [06:53] remember this [06:54] that this is the bar that's just been [06:56] set, and we're about to watch it move. [07:00] Okay, let's keep going with this clip. [07:07] >> Sh- Should Should the lady [07:10] Uh this The simple question is, should [07:14] the gay person who was thrown off the [07:15] rooftop of been suspicious? Should the [07:17] lady buried into the ground having rocks [07:19] smashed at her head, which is the law, [07:21] which I'll get to? [07:23] Yeah. [07:24] >> Does it matter [07:25] what the Quran says when Muslims do not [07:27] practice it? Does it matter [07:29] when the Muslims who are professing [07:32] exactly what you said [07:34] are the ones who are saying [07:35] >> Yeah. [07:37] Now, 25 countries, 25 countries where [07:40] Islam is the state religion have [07:42] criminal penalties for sex outside of [07:44] marriage. Nine of them is punishable by [07:46] death. So again, you no one needs to [07:47] have this argument with me. You don't [07:49] need to convince me, okay? You don't [07:50] need to convince me. [07:52] Again, who's protesting about this? Can [07:53] we at least agree as a room? Can we look [07:55] for some common ground with the Muslim [07:56] community? [07:57] Stoning people for having sex outside of [07:59] marriage is never okay. It was never [08:02] okay. It's not okay then, and it's not [08:04] okay now. [08:06] >> Uh since Jewish law says the same thing [08:08] >> here to talk about Jewish law. [08:10] >> of Jewish law in general. So you've been [08:11] consistent, sir. [08:12] >> That's not the question we're here for. [08:14] If you want to have that question [08:15] debate, have it. Yeah? [08:17] Can we at least agree with the Muslim [08:19] community, okay? In modern Britain, [08:21] where you're preaching to what now 4 [08:22] million Muslims, we can just put a line [08:24] through the verses in the Quran, yeah? [08:26] The parts of Islam's sacred text that [08:28] says these things are not okay. They're [08:30] not practiced now. They weren't okay [08:31] then, and they're not okay now. Can we [08:33] meet in the middle somewhere and have [08:34] have you accept the verses in the Quran [08:36] today? [08:37] >> Will will you demand that Orthodox Jews [08:39] put a line put put lines through the the [08:42] Tanakh? [08:43] Will you demand that Orthodox Jews put [08:44] lines through the Tanakh as you are [08:46] requesting Muslims to do? [08:47] >> I think you're confused at which debate [08:48] you're at, okay? And the motion of this [08:50] debate. [08:52] Now [08:54] >> Now Tommy has a point that I mean he [08:56] handles this right cuz it's not the it's [08:58] not the subject of the debate. [09:00] But uh but I I want to address this [09:03] issue. [09:04] Cuz I am a rabbi, and I can actually [09:07] address this issue. [09:09] And both sides in the in that exchange [09:11] are kind of half right. It's true that [09:13] the Torah does prescribe death for some [09:15] of these offense of these same offenses. [09:17] Tommy's uh you know, and this this guy [09:19] who interrupts Tommy is not wrong that [09:21] it's in there, but here's what is [09:22] missing. [09:24] Judaism has an entire legal tradition, [09:26] the oral Torah, the rabbinic tradition. [09:30] Whose authorities [09:32] have the standing. Now, this is Jewish [09:33] law. I'm not, you know, there's a lot of [09:35] Christians. I I do a lot of Jewish [09:37] Christian relations and one of the [09:39] things that that Christians are kind of [09:41] like unclear about about Judaism and [09:43] sometimes makes them [09:44] um [09:46] a bit uncomfortable [09:48] is this rabbinic law and they see it as [09:50] unbiblical. [09:52] And that's not what I'm talking about [09:53] here because this is what this person is [09:55] saying is this is Jewish law states [09:58] these things. Now, what is Jewish law? [10:01] Judaism. I practice Judaism. What is [10:03] Jewish law? So, according to Jewish law, [10:05] we follow rabbinic law. We follow an [10:07] oral tradition. [10:09] An oral rabbinic interpretation. [10:12] And according to that rabbinic [10:14] tradition, the rabbinic authorities have [10:17] the standing to interpret and limit how [10:20] biblical laws apply. [10:23] And they use it. [10:25] And for a larger discussion about, you [10:28] know, how this works and why it's valid [10:30] and why it's in in line with the Bible, [10:32] that's a far bigger discussion than this [10:34] video. But we're talking about Jewish [10:36] law because what that what that [10:37] interrupter what that heckler or what [10:39] whatever the person who interrupted [10:40] Tommy said was [10:42] well, Jewish law has the same thing and [10:44] as as as Islamic law has, so it's, you [10:47] know, use the same standard. [10:49] Let me explain. [10:51] The Mishna. The Mishna is a very early [10:54] text of Jewish law, authoritative text [10:56] of Jewish law from the 2nd century. [10:59] And even all the way back then in the [11:00] 2nd centuries, like I don't know what [11:02] what is it? 400 years [11:04] 500 years before Islam. [11:07] It records the sages the Jewish sages [11:10] saying [11:11] that a rabbinic court that carries out [11:14] an execution, a capital punishment even [11:17] once in 70 years is [11:19] is considered a bloody tribunal. [11:22] And what the rabbis did was they built [11:24] all sorts of procedural requirements, [11:26] the standard for witnesses, the standard [11:27] for warnings, specifically so that the [11:30] death penalty would basically never be [11:33] actually carried out. [11:35] Now again, why this is okay with when [11:37] the Bible has death penalties for [11:38] things, that's a that's a bigger [11:40] discussion. [11:42] But this is ancient rabbinic law on the [11:45] books for 2,000 years. Now compare that [11:47] to what Tommy's actually citing. Four of [11:49] the five major schools of Islamic [11:52] jurisprudence, schools of Islamic [11:54] jurisprudence still treated today as [11:56] live authoritative sources of law by [11:59] real governments enforcing real [12:01] penalties in our time. There's no [12:04] equivalent rabbinic mechanism operating [12:06] inside Sunni or Shia legal theory the [12:09] way it operates inside Jewish law. [12:12] So Jewish law says the same thing is [12:15] actually incorrect and it's a deflection [12:19] because it swaps out the question that [12:21] Tommy's raising. Remember, this debate [12:23] is about should people in the West be [12:25] suspicious of Islam because the question [12:28] is is this currently treated as [12:30] operative law by an authoritative [12:32] tradition in the religion? [12:35] And for Islam the answer is yes and for [12:37] Judaism [12:38] the law that that guy brings up that [12:40] Judaism also has [12:42] stone you know death penalty for [12:44] adultery is not considered operative law [12:47] by our authoritative tradition anymore. [12:50] It's on the books in a certain way but [12:52] the rabbinic law makes it inoperative. [12:54] Again, I don't want to get into why [12:56] that's valid and why the rabbis have the [12:57] authority to do that. That's a different [12:58] discussion. [13:01] So what they're doing is a deflection [13:02] play because Tommy's raising the fact [13:04] that this is considered operative [13:07] by [13:09] much of Islam today [13:12] and it's being deflected by the [13:14] questioner by saying [13:16] hey, in the ancient Jewish texts we see [13:18] the same thing. Those are that's a [13:20] deflection. Those are different [13:21] questions. [13:22] And the honest answer is the ancient [13:24] texts are comparable [13:26] but the practiced, interpreted tradition [13:29] as it's practiced today is not. [13:33] And notice the second round of it a few [13:34] seconds later. Will you demand that the [13:36] Orthodox Jews put lines through the [13:38] Tanakh? Same move, same answer. Orthodox [13:41] Jews [13:42] have it needed to cross out a word of [13:44] the Tanakh because their own legal [13:45] tradition already did the interpretive [13:48] work centuries ago. [13:50] That's not It's not evasion. That's the [13:52] actual on-the-record difference between [13:54] the two traditions. [13:56] And between the two traditions' [13:57] relationships to their own sacred texts. [14:00] Okay, let's get back to the clip. [14:02] And we'll play the next piece of it. [14:05] Here we go. [14:08] >> Let's turn [14:10] to good old Muhammad, okay? According to [14:12] Islam's sacred text, an exalted example [14:15] of moral actions. [14:17] Well, in 2014, ISIS, again, cuz this is [14:19] important, cuz they're following [14:21] scripture. [14:22] ISIS, when they captured Yazidi [14:24] Sorry. [14:25] >> Ask any Muslim whether they believe ISIS [14:28] is following Islamic scripture, and [14:29] you'll find that no Muslim agrees that [14:31] they are actually Islamic. [14:34] >> Okay, you hear what she's saying. Ask [14:35] any Muslim if they believe that ISIS is [14:37] following Islamic scripture, and they [14:39] will say that ISIS is not Islamic. [14:42] Okay, [14:43] that's the flip I told you to watch for. [14:46] 90 seconds ago, the standard in the room [14:48] was prove it's really textually there. [14:50] Prove that it's in the Quran. [14:52] Fine. Now Tommy's about to do exactly [14:54] that. He's about to cite us Sahih Sahih [14:58] Muslim, one of the most authoritative [14:59] Hadith collections in Sunni Islam [15:01] describing Muhammad presiding over the [15:03] execution of of these prisoners, these [15:06] Jewish prisoners, the Banu Qurayza [15:08] prisoners. Real text, real citation. [15:11] And the second he connects it to [15:12] real-world practice, what ISIS did to [15:15] Yazidi men in 2014, which he's going to [15:18] discuss in a moment, the standard will [15:20] change. Now it's no true Muslim believes [15:22] that that's [15:23] that that's Islamic. That practice [15:25] doesn't count either. Okay, [15:27] you know, [15:28] well, let's listen to that piece of the [15:30] clip and then we'll [15:31] we'll [15:32] and then we'll evaluate. [15:34] Okay, so here we go. Let's go back to [15:35] the clip. [15:37] I'm getting ahead of myself. [15:44] >> Once again, once again, [15:50] >> I'm sorry, Madam President. I think the [15:52] point has been made. You must allow the [15:53] speaker to continue. [15:54] >> In 2014, ISIS executed captured Yazidi [15:56] men [15:57] and boys. And what they've done is they [15:59] pulled their pants down, they [15:59] surrendered, they pulled their pants [16:01] down. Anyone who had any pubic hair [16:04] was shot in the head and some of them [16:05] had their heads cut off from ISIS. You [16:07] can watch the videos if you want online, [16:08] yeah? [16:09] Okay? They were following the example of [16:11] Muhammad, who according to Islam's own [16:13] sacred text, presided over the execution [16:16] of up to 900 men and boys, which was the [16:18] Jewish tribe who had surrendered. And [16:20] any male prison- Any male Let me finish. [16:23] Any male prisoner who had pubic hair [16:25] was executed. That is what the practice [16:28] that the Muslims in 2014 were following. [16:30] This is why scripture is important and [16:32] then why we must be suspicious. Now, [16:35] consider the fact I'll just finish, [16:36] please. Consider the fact that there are [16:38] no Jews. None. [16:40] In any of the 26 countries where Islam [16:42] is a state religion. Countries which [16:44] once held thriving Jewish communities. [16:46] This is not an accident and there are [16:48] precious few Christians in any of these [16:50] Islamic countries, either, that once had [16:52] majority Christian populations. You see, [16:54] one way or another, these countries are [16:56] following the example of Muhammad. I [16:58] will certainly expel the Jews and [17:00] Christians Excuse me, can I just finish? [17:02] I will certainly expel the Jews and [17:04] Christians from the Arabian Peninsula [17:06] and will not leave any but Muslim. [17:08] That's a quote of Muhammad, Sahih [17:10] Muslim. Sahih being the authentic, [17:13] considered most authentic Hadith. [17:15] Please, can I just finish? [17:16] >> One of us. [17:17] Thank you. [17:19] On the point On the point On the point [17:20] On the point, sorry. [17:21] >> No, you do not have to accept. [17:22] >> No, it doesn't. [17:22] >> Good. Can I have a go, then? [17:24] >> Okay. So, [17:26] >> Okay. [17:27] Let's pause there and comment cuz we [17:29] just heard a lot. [17:31] Okay. [17:32] Um [17:33] So, this whole thing Remember, she [17:35] started this interruption before before [17:37] before this the [17:40] this uh this last uh piece [17:42] by saying, [17:43] "Ask any Ask any Muslim if what ISIS is [17:47] doing is Islamic, and they'll say that [17:49] ISIS does not represent true Islam." [17:52] Right? [17:54] So, [17:55] the question is, which is it? [17:57] If practice is what counts, then you [18:00] don't get to wave off what ISIS is doing [18:02] by disputing the text. [18:05] If text is what counts, then you don't [18:07] get to wave off the text by pointing at [18:09] what most Muslims actually do. [18:12] You can't run both objections in the [18:14] same conversation depending on which one [18:16] gets you out of the example that's being [18:18] presented. [18:19] It's a It's a deflection play. It's not [18:21] a real rebuttal. It's a moving standard [18:23] where you choose which way to apply [18:27] uh which argument to apply depending on [18:29] what argument you're about to lose. And [18:31] here's what makes the Okay. Here's what [18:33] makes the no Muslim agrees that ISIS is [18:35] actually Islamic uh argument ring so [18:38] hollow. [18:41] Where's the authoritative declaration? [18:46] Uh [18:46] Al-Azhar University, Al-Azhar, the [18:49] seminary in Cairo, is a is the closest [18:52] thing that Sunni Islam has to a Vatican, [18:54] right? [18:55] That kind of authority. A A A [18:57] thousand-year-old seat of religious [18:59] authority. [19:00] And when you actually look at what [19:02] Al-Azhar has said, [19:04] it undercuts this this heckler's line of [19:08] uh argument rather than supporting it. [19:09] Al-Azhar [19:11] has criticized specific ISIS fatwas, [19:14] but has explicitly and and repeatedly [19:16] refused to declare ISIS members [19:18] non-Muslim or apostates on the ground [19:21] right that they've done something that [19:23] that is beyond the pale of Islam. That's [19:25] Al-Azhar's own stated position. [19:28] Uh [19:29] on October 7th, let's take that example. [19:32] That's maybe even a stronger example. [19:34] Hamas attack involved deliberate murder [19:37] of children, rape of women. We all know [19:39] what happened there. Al-Azhar didn't [19:41] even [19:42] do the what they did with ISIS where [19:44] they where they condemned specific acts, [19:46] but don't but aren't going to say that [19:48] they're not Muslim. They went even [19:49] further. Al-Azhar issued a statement [19:52] saluting Hamas [19:54] and calling it saluting what they [19:56] called, quote, "the efforts of [19:58] resistance of the noble people of [20:00] Palestine." There was no condemnation. [20:03] So, when she stands up and says, "No [20:05] real Muslim believes that this barbaric [20:07] stuff is actually Islamic." You know, [20:09] you don't invoke ISIS. That's the No no [20:11] real Muslim believes that that's [20:13] Islamic. The honest question, the real [20:14] perspective that is okay, where's the [20:17] declaration from Al-Azhar or a [20:21] comparable body stating clearly in [20:24] public [20:25] that for the whole world to see that [20:26] what ISIS did to the Yazidis [20:29] uh [20:29] and what Hamas did on October 7th are [20:32] violations of Islamic law. We're all [20:33] still waiting for that. [20:37] Um [20:38] so that's the that's the real response [20:40] here. Okay, let's uh let's play let's [20:42] play another clip [20:44] of this. [20:48] >> Of course. [20:50] Put your hands up if you think it's okay [20:52] for a man older than most of your dads [20:55] saying they're 50s to marry someone in [20:57] infant school. Let's say 6 years old. [21:00] And can't consummate that marriage rape [21:02] when the little girl reaches nine. By [21:04] the way, that's year five doing key [21:05] stage two. [21:07] Doing key stage two. No, please, cuz I [21:09] know many of you gentlemen should have [21:10] your hands up at this point. No, [21:11] we're going to get onto it, but you [21:12] agree that Muhammad was perfect as we [21:15] know. He had He married a 6-year-old, [21:17] had sex with her when she was nine. [21:18] We've had We've previously had this [21:19] discussion, Andalusia. [21:22] Do you think children should be [21:22] suspicious of Islam who are studying key [21:24] stage two? [21:26] Now, please, can I just finish? [21:28] And of course, can I please finish? [21:30] Please let me finish. You can get on [21:31] >> Speaker declined. Please let us [21:33] continue. [21:35] >> And [21:36] I must mention Quran 65:4, where God [21:40] debatable. God spells out the rules for [21:42] divorcing prepubescent children. Yeah? [21:46] So, let me read it. [21:47] And for those who have no courses, not [21:50] yet started your periods, [21:52] who are still immature, [21:54] their iddah, their wait waiting period, [21:56] is three months. What has happened for a [21:58] child to be married, and this is the [22:00] Quran telling you what the rules are and [22:02] obligations to divorce a child before [22:04] they've started puberty. Yeah? [22:07] Can we be suspicious on this question? [22:09] Is this No, please, can I finish, then? [22:11] And to be quite be honest, I'm just [22:13] here. I'm the extremist, apparently. [22:16] I'm the extremist for not wanting [22:18] homosexuals thrown off rooftops, not [22:19] wanting women buried in the ground, and [22:20] not wanting children studying key stage [22:22] two to be married and raped. So, of the [22:24] 10 countries with the highest rates of [22:26] child marriage, seven of them are [22:28] Islamic countries. There's no minimum [22:30] age in Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, [22:32] Yemen, cuz there's no minimum age in [22:34] Islam. [22:36] But whatever the state of legal age of [22:37] marriage is in some Muslim countries, [22:39] forced marriage of young girls, often to [22:41] much older men, is prevalent in [22:43] Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in Bangladesh, [22:45] Burkina Burkina Faso, Yemen. I could go [22:48] on and on. [22:49] UNICEF data shows, for all of you ladies [22:51] who care about women and children's [22:52] rights, UNICEF data shows child brides [22:55] are unlikely to finish education, more [22:58] likely to believe wife beating is [23:00] justified, and more likely to have [23:02] experienced intimate partner violence. [23:05] I just [23:06] >> Okay. [23:09] Um [23:13] Now, this [23:14] I want to be consistent about applying [23:16] scrutiny here, [23:17] including the side that I agree with [23:18] here, cuz I mean [23:20] obviously I'm on Tommy's side of this [23:22] argument. The Aisha marriage age claim [23:26] that Muhammad married her at 6 and that [23:28] consummated the marriage when she was 9 [23:30] is genuinely disputed territory. It's [23:32] the most commonly cited figure. It's [23:34] true, it comes from a Hadith. [23:36] Um Tommy's not making it up, but there [23:38] are classical and modern scholars, [23:40] including some Muslim scholars, who've [23:42] argued for a significantly older age [23:45] based on other chronological evidence in [23:46] the sources, right? So, I'm not telling [23:48] you Tommy invented this. He didn't. I'm [23:50] telling you that it's the shakiest brick [23:52] in his argument. Quran 65:4 [23:57] uh the Banu Qurayza Hadith that that's [24:01] the Banu Qurayza Hadith is um [24:04] is um [24:08] And 65:4 is what he was talking about [24:10] about the about the divorcing of uh of a [24:12] of an underage girl. [24:14] When a underage of a of a of a of a girl [24:16] a prepubescent girl. The Banu Qurayza [24:18] Hadith is the Hadith about the about the [24:20] killing of the [24:22] of the of the of the boys who have pubic [24:24] hair from this Jewish tribe. [24:26] The state penal codes and the UN child [24:29] marriage data that he just shared, [24:32] those are on firmer ground. Right? So, [24:33] if you're going to demand that your [24:34] opponent sources their claim precisely, [24:37] hold your own side side's favorite clip [24:39] to the same bar. [24:41] And let me just say here, look, do you [24:43] see what's happening? [24:44] thing. [24:45] They're the other side is saying, [24:48] you know, [24:49] "Oh, ISIS is not real Islam." And then [24:51] they're saying, "Show me something [24:52] that's actually from the text." [24:55] And he's he's presenting both things. [24:57] He's showing you in the text and he's [24:58] showing you that it's also done. He's [25:00] showing you that that these these Muslim [25:01] states have child marriage en masse. [25:05] And he's showing you that it's also in [25:07] the Quran. [25:09] Okay, let's play to the end now. Just [25:11] another minute or so left. Not even. [25:15] >> Just like to finish Please guys, I'm I [25:16] apologize. [25:18] Can we at least agree executing [25:19] prisoners of war including young boys, [25:22] carrying out ethnic cleansing of Jews [25:24] and Christians from the lands, or [25:25] marrying and having sex with a little [25:26] child when Muhammad was 53 years old. [25:29] Can we at least agree today [25:31] Muhammad was not and is not the perfect [25:33] example for mankind. Nor is he an [25:36] exalted example of moral actions. Quite [25:39] the opposite in fact. [25:40] Because if we can't agree this, then the [25:43] West is right to be suspicious of Islam [25:46] because of what the sacred text says, [25:48] because of how millions of Muslims [25:50] interpret the sacred text, because of [25:52] how Muhammad's life is held up as the [25:54] perfect example. [25:55] Not back then, but now [25:58] for all Muslims to follow. That's the [25:59] problem. They don't recognize any of the [26:01] problems or see anything wrong which [26:02] Muhammad done. [26:03] So ladies and gentlemen, if you care [26:05] about gay rights, [26:07] if you care about women's rights, if you [26:09] care about children's rights, if you [26:11] care about human rights, [26:12] or if you care about free speech, [26:15] I urge you to support this motion. [26:19] >> You see there, he said it perfectly. [26:21] Because of what the text says and [26:24] because of how millions of Muslims [26:27] interpret that text. [26:29] That's the point. [26:31] That's the point. [26:35] You know, [26:36] let's go back to the Jewish law point. [26:39] The text of the Torah is has some severe [26:42] things in it that would seem outdated [26:44] and barbaric. [26:47] But the question that matters isn't [26:49] what's written down in the ancient text. [26:52] It's [26:55] who has authority to interpret the text. [26:57] What do they do with that authority? How [26:59] is it practiced [27:02] today? [27:03] Rabbinic Judaism built a tradition [27:05] specifically designed to make those [27:07] penalties inoperative. [27:09] That's not spin. Okay, that's that's [27:11] actually what happened there. [27:13] No one [27:15] No one in in [27:17] in in Islam [27:19] the the four schools of Islam of [27:22] of Islamic law that Tommy [27:24] was mentioning here, n- none of that has [27:27] ever happened. [27:29] And we have state governments and [27:31] millions of Muslims who are practicing [27:33] according to [27:36] those those laws. So, the fact that [27:39] there's some people in the room who say, [27:40] "Oh, that's not real Islam." It just [27:41] doesn't fly. [27:43] Now, there's a bigger point. [27:46] And it it has to do with how you [27:47] evaluate any argument like this about [27:49] any religion, any ideology, any country. [27:52] You have to pick a standard and hold to [27:54] it. Either you judge a belief system by [27:56] its authoritative texts, or you judge it [27:58] by how its adherents actually live. [28:02] Or honestly, the most reasonably the [28:04] most reasonable thing is you weigh both [28:05] together. What you don't get to do, but [28:07] they're not weighing both together. It's [28:09] really the opposite of weighing both [28:10] together. What you don't get to do is [28:12] invoke whichever standard exonerates the [28:15] example currently on the table, [28:18] and then drop it the moment it doesn't. [28:22] That's not principled disagreement, [28:23] right? It it's it's like a it's like a [28:25] shell game. [28:29] You know, [28:31] once you [28:32] once you make them hold one standard, [28:36] the evidence that Tommy's citing gets [28:38] harder to explain away. [28:41] Because it was never it he wasn't [28:43] resting it on a single cherry-picked [28:44] line. He's showing what it says in the [28:45] text. He's showing that there's millions [28:47] of Muslims who follow that. [28:50] To this day. [28:51] That's the issue that he's raising here. [28:54] And if you want proof that no no real [28:56] Muslim believes [28:58] what ISIS does is Islam. If you if you [29:01] want proof that that's a dodge [29:03] of an argument, [29:06] look at who actually holds the authority [29:08] in Islam. [29:09] Al-Azhar does not call ISIS apostates. [29:12] Al-Azhar saluted October 7th, and they [29:16] are no one in that room could claim [29:18] Al-Azhar isn't authoritative. Al-Azhar [29:20] is the authority [29:22] for Sunni Islam. [29:24] We're still waiting for a declaration [29:26] from an institution with real standing [29:28] globally for Islam that says [29:30] unambiguously this is not Islam. Until [29:33] that happens, the no true Muslim [29:35] believes this is just a it's just a it's [29:38] just a rhetorical assertion from an [29:39] audience member, [29:42] you know, to get out of the argument. [29:46] And to be fair in the other direction, I [29:47] flagged the Aisha claim as a little bit [29:50] shaky because the standard has to cut [29:52] both ways. If we're if we're going to [29:53] insist that the other side source its [29:55] accusations precisely, we don't get to [29:57] wave [29:58] you you you know, to [30:00] you know, to have our you know, to have [30:02] our own [30:04] have our own example of something that [30:05] doesn't hold up, [30:07] basically. Anyway, that's it for this [30:09] video. I hope you found it interesting. [30:11] And uh [30:13] and let me know in the comments if you [30:14] want to see more of these where I [30:16] actually show a clip and pull it apart [30:17] and discuss this topic. It's not the [30:19] topic I usually discuss, [30:21] but uh yeah, let me know what you [30:23] thought of this. Let me know what you [30:24] found if you found it helpful, if you [30:25] found it interesting. [30:27] Um interested to hear your comments. All [30:29] right, God bless.
