Transcript [00:00] Hey everyone. I want to show you a clip [00:02] from a debate that aired on Dan [00:04] Wootton's show called The Clash. The [00:06] topic is Islam good for women? [00:10] And I want to react to it together with [00:12] a book I've just finished reading that I [00:14] want to tell you about. Robert Spencer's [00:16] book Holy Hell, Islam's abuse of women [00:20] and the infidels who enable it. Okay, [00:23] this is the book right here. [00:26] I you could find it on Amazon. I think [00:28] it's only available in Kindle version. [00:30] And we're going to talk about this book [00:31] in this video. [00:33] Uh and uh [00:35] you know, the debate is essentially the [00:37] book playing out in real time on your [00:39] screen. So, let me quickly set up who's [00:41] in this debate. Dan Wootton is the host. [00:44] Nuriya Khan [00:46] is an ex-Muslim. She's host of a show [00:49] called Beyond Belief, a woman who lived [00:51] under Sharia law in Dubai, tried to get [00:53] divorced from an abusive husband, [00:55] and was nearly forced by police to [00:57] return to his home. The other woman in [01:00] the clip is Fahima Mohammed. [01:03] She's a Green Party member and a [01:05] practicing Muslim who's trying to make [01:07] the case [01:09] that the Islam she practices has nothing [01:11] to do with what Nuriya experienced. All [01:13] right? So, let's go. [01:17] Muslim at the time, you have to go under [01:18] Sharia law even if you live in a modern [01:20] glossy state like Dubai. [01:22] Um and so just to in that divorce, you [01:24] get you have to lose all the small [01:25] rights that you have, which is a monthly [01:27] maintenance according to Islam. So, I I [01:29] forgo all my rights. Um the police were [01:32] about to send me back to my husband's [01:33] house where you can't leave, essentially [01:35] kidnapped. And then because I was still [01:38] fighting to get a divorce, he had [01:39] convinced them that there were Islamic [01:41] demons or jinns inside me, and that's [01:43] the reason I wanted a divorce. So, I was [01:44] forced to go to Islamic therapy and [01:47] counseling. [01:48] >> like the exorcism type practice? [01:50] >> heard about this. [01:51] >> Yes. [01:51] >> And and and that is apparently a a a [01:54] very dehumanizing horrendous experience, [01:56] the exorcism. [01:58] >> what happens? Well, there's an again, [02:00] you're you're surrounded by men in this [02:02] religion. It was was sitting with an [02:03] Emirati shake um [02:05] and he's just trying to read like bits [02:07] of the Quran and things on you to try [02:09] and make you And it's almost like they [02:11] think they're cleansing you. That's what [02:13] they believe. [02:14] >> Exactly, yeah. [02:15] >> There's always a cult in every faith and [02:17] I see that as a cult which I firstly [02:19] have called out. I've sat in mosque and [02:21] I've [02:21] I have heard [02:23] I have heard [02:25] asked the question Can I ask a question [02:26] because reason I still managed to escape [02:28] by like, you know, the skin of my teeth [02:30] and get out of there if I had children, [02:32] all of these judges said to me, "If you [02:34] had children, you would be screwed." So [02:36] just asking you woman to woman, in [02:38] Islam, who gets custody of the child [02:40] after they're done breastfeeding and [02:41] they're about growing enough to be with [02:43] the dad? [02:43] >> It is is [02:44] >> 7 years old maybe? Who who gets custody [02:46] for life? [02:47] >> it is the man without despite no matter [02:49] what's going on in his life, whether [02:51] he's an extremist terrorist No, no, no. [02:53] That shouldn't be that that is not [02:55] >> that. If you if you don't [02:57] Look, we are mixing countries and [02:59] cultures. [03:01] I am. I'm above. That's how it actually [03:04] is. And most people that treat me and [03:06] lots of women that I know that are [03:08] living in this country I do. I have two [03:10] boys. And and [03:12] I I don't want to get personal. [03:15] >> You can. It's fine. Okay, so so you're [03:16] married? [03:17] >> I was. Okay. [03:18] >> Yes. And if your husband had wanted [03:20] custody of those children, he would have [03:22] got them. [03:23] >> It wouldn't have worked in this country. [03:24] >> UK country, who would have got custody? [03:26] >> have been him, but a lot of the times [03:28] >> And is do you think that's right? [03:30] I think that a lot of women want to [03:33] actually have that freedom and they've [03:35] actually asked for it. So again, it's [03:36] it's it's it's autonomy. [03:41] Okay, pause here. Did you catch what [03:43] just happened? [03:45] Nuriya said something really important [03:46] that that Fahima didn't engage with. She [03:49] basically conceded the point. The [03:51] question was about child custody [03:54] under Islamic law. And Faheema said, "A [03:57] lot of women actually want that." [04:01] It's the oldest move in the book when it [04:02] comes to defending a system that removes [04:05] someone's choices, that removes in this [04:07] case women's choices. You claim the [04:08] women chose it, but that's exactly the [04:10] system Nuriyah is describing, a system [04:13] where the choices have [04:15] been removed, and then you're told you [04:16] wanted it that way. And that's not [04:18] autonomy. That's That's That's the [04:21] language of autonomy used to defend the [04:22] removal of it. And it also reminds me [04:24] something that I've mentioned before in [04:27] in Saudi Arabia [04:29] as one example, and this is true of many [04:31] places. According to Open Doors [04:32] International, which tracks the [04:33] persecution of Christians, [04:35] if a woman in Saudi Arabia converts to [04:37] Christianity, her children are taken [04:39] away from her. Taken away. [04:42] Given to a Muslim family. [04:44] So, yeah. [04:45] That's the language of autonomy. You [04:47] know, women want that They want that [04:49] freedom. [04:51] Sure. [04:52] All right, let's keep watching. [04:54] Women are blamed if they are raped. [04:57] >> Yes. The threshold in Islam to prove [04:59] rape is four witnesses, which is the [05:01] most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. [05:03] And it it goes beyond that. [05:04] >> practice. What about in Indonesia? [05:06] They have the highest concentration of [05:08] actually Indonesia. [05:10] >> For a euphemism with the fountain pen in [05:12] the ink. That's what four men, not even [05:15] women, need to see happen for you to be [05:17] able to say that's rape. Otherwise, [05:18] you're in trouble. [05:19] >> So, does that mean that women are used [05:21] for sex? Yes, of course they are. And [05:24] their sexual crimes are rampant in those [05:26] countries. And what do you do? You hope [05:28] that you come from a host country where [05:30] you can flee back to and get on the [05:31] first plane out because Sharia All of [05:33] this Islam gives women rights, Sharia [05:35] protects women. It absolutely does not. [05:37] And while it gives Muslim women an iota [05:40] of what seems to be protections, which [05:41] it doesn't because I tried to get [05:42] divorced under Sharia, and they made my [05:44] life a living hell, and made me go [05:46] >> What happened? So they they used an [05:49] ancient archaic Sharia law Sharia, which [05:51] is derived from the Quran because the [05:52] Quran is the inspiration for everything [05:55] that goes into Sharia. I didn't want to [05:57] go back to an abusive husband and they [05:59] actually used it's called dar al-zaujiya [06:01] which relates to the disobedience of the [06:03] wife which comes directly out of the [06:05] Quran verse 4:34 in [06:07] >> in the UAE and they said you need to [06:09] return to your husband's house and we'll [06:10] arrest you and take you there and you [06:12] cannot leave without his permission. It [06:15] is directly going back to the concept of [06:16] nushuz in the Quran which is [06:18] disobedience of a wife which is directly [06:21] from Surah Nisa which is the verse for [06:22] women. [06:23] >> what you [06:24] >> that's how they're able to use the law [06:25] >> Because because they use it Can I just [06:27] >> don't practice the core Sharia in one [06:30] interpretation. [06:31] >> Can I just Can I Every religion has [06:33] that. [06:34] >> it. [06:38] Okay, every religion has that. [06:41] This is a response uh to [06:44] Nuria describing being sent to an [06:47] exorcism by an Emirati sheikh. Men [06:50] reading the Quran over her to cast out [06:52] the jinn that were supposedly making her [06:54] want a divorce. And Fahima's answer is [06:57] every religion has its cults, every [06:58] religion has its extremists. Now look, [07:01] I understand what Fahima's trying to do. [07:03] She doesn't want Islam to be singled [07:05] out. [07:06] That's a legitimate instinct. [07:08] But [07:10] but there's a difference between a cult [07:12] that exists despite a religion's [07:14] mainstream and a practice that is [07:18] mainstream and is rooted in mainstream [07:20] texts and law. [07:23] The nushuz concept, this idea of wifely [07:25] disobedience that Nuria's case was built [07:27] on legally, that's Surah 4:34. It's not [07:30] a fringe cult. [07:32] It's a verse that the classical scholars [07:34] have never walked away from. They've [07:35] never modified it in any way. Every [07:37] religion does not have that encoded in [07:40] its foundational law [07:42] and enforced in its courts in countries [07:45] that are held up by the way as the [07:46] modern face of Islam. Dubai is not is [07:49] not a backwater. It's not it's not [07:51] Afghanistan, right? People point to the [07:53] UAE as evidence that Islam and modernity [07:55] are compatible. Look, I'm a fan of a lot [07:57] of the things they're doing, but that's [07:59] exactly where Nuri's story took place. [08:02] There's another point I need to make [08:03] here. [08:05] Cuz I can hear the objection coming, [08:06] right? Oh, Rabbi, you can find laws in [08:08] the Bible that look just as brutal, [08:10] which is kind of the point that [08:12] uh Faiema was making here. [08:15] And that's true. [08:16] You can, and I hear this all the time [08:18] when you whenever there's criticisms of [08:20] the brutality of Islam, look at the [08:22] Bible. You have, you know, the book of [08:24] Joshua where they're slaughtering people [08:26] and you have all these you have other [08:27] laws. [08:29] But that misses the point. [08:32] Because Judaism has the oral law. [08:36] Yes, Judaism existed in the ancient [08:39] world and it exists today, but Judaism [08:42] has the oral law. The entire rabbinic [08:44] tradition, thousands of years of it, is [08:46] built around a process of legal [08:48] development and adaptation. [08:51] The Halakha, Jewish law, is a living [08:53] system. The rabbis of the Talmud made it [08:55] functionally impossible to carry out the [08:57] death penalty, for example. [09:00] They created all sorts of rules around [09:02] it for it not to happen. [09:04] Lashes haven't been administered in [09:06] Jewish courts in literally millennia. [09:10] That's not rabbis ignoring the Torah. [09:12] That's the system working as it's [09:13] designed to work. Interpretation, [09:15] development, adjustment. [09:18] Generation after generation of the [09:20] greatest legal minds in Jewish history [09:22] wrestling with the text and moving the [09:23] tradition forward and adapting it. [09:26] That process exists in Judaism, which [09:28] also again has law, just like Islam [09:31] does. The question, the serious, honest [09:34] question is whether a comparable process [09:37] has happened within Islamic [09:39] jurisprudence on these specific issues. [09:42] And the answer, which the mainstream [09:44] Islamic scholarly tradition would [09:46] largely agree with, is no. [09:50] Like another example is you hear this [09:51] all the time, oh that in the Talmud it [09:53] talks about marrying girls of a fairly [09:55] young age, of a much younger age than we [09:57] would marry girls today. [09:59] Okay, it's true, it says that in the [10:00] Talmud. Has anyone done that in like [10:02] forever? [10:05] No, because we adapt our law. [10:09] The classical position on milk al-yamin, [10:12] on the evidentiary evidentiary standard [10:14] for rape [10:16] that uh [10:18] Nury [10:21] was wives, this hasn't been revised in [10:23] Islam. [10:25] It's still there. That's not an attack [10:26] on Islam, that's just the state of the [10:28] of the tradition. So, when when uh when [10:31] she says here, "Every religion has [10:33] that." [10:34] It's only true if you stop the sentence [10:36] right there. [10:38] The full sentence is, "Every religion [10:40] has difficult texts." [10:42] And then the traditions diverge [10:44] dramatically in how they deal with them [10:48] as humanity develops [10:51] and evolves and as society changes. [10:55] All right, let's finish the clip. [10:58] But uh female, what I'm trying to [10:59] understand here, and I hope you can [11:00] understand [11:01] >> Mhm. where I'm going with this and why [11:04] I'm trying to understand this. Because I [11:07] presume you acknowledge, and if you [11:08] don't acknowledge, please interrupt me. [11:10] But I assume you acknowledge that there [11:13] has been a massive scandal in this [11:16] country with Pakistani Muslim rape [11:18] gangs. [11:18] >> 100% I acknowledge and I [11:20] spoke out about it, too. Yeps, exactly. [11:22] So, what I'm trying to understand is [11:24] why. Why those types of barbaric [11:27] practices were allowed. And when I hear [11:30] the way that in their host cultures [11:34] these Islamist men are allowed to treat [11:37] women, it all of a sudden becomes more [11:39] understandable as to why they thought [11:42] white girls could be treated in that [11:44] way. [11:45] >> It's not acceptable anywhere. It's not [11:47] acceptable [11:48] >> But it sounds like it is. No, it's not. [11:50] I don't know where you're getting that [11:51] from. Well, I'm I'm getting it from [11:53] Maria, who lived here. [11:54] >> is also talking about extreme countries, [11:57] which I find that also are [11:59] >> Dubai is extreme. The UAE is extreme. [12:01] That's the example Muslims quote to say [12:03] this is the most modern form of Islam. [12:05] >> I don't think that they are, you know, [12:07] the sort of epitome of Islam. I don't [12:09] think any country actually in the world [12:11] is an epitome of [12:14] No, because what I'm saying is they [12:15] don't interpret my sort of way. [12:18] >> then, but why is your version better [12:19] than all the scholars that have ever [12:21] come? I follow scholars. It's just that [12:23] my scholars are very few and limited. Do [12:25] you not understand? They do have that. [12:27] >> were more mainstream because this is not [12:29] very limited. I guess I have I guess I [12:31] have I guess I have Let me ask Let me [12:33] ask you this. Let me ask you this. Show [12:35] Show me a church in the United Kingdom, [12:37] Maria, where people are told that women [12:40] can be raped or that gay men can be [12:42] pushed off the top of buildings. [12:43] >> either. I'm sorry. That is rubbish. That [12:46] is rubbish. And if they do, they should [12:48] be called out because that's completely [12:50] wrong. But Maria, you need to go up and [12:52] down the country and you need to listen [12:54] You need to listen to the Friday [12:56] sermons, what they're saying. I have [12:57] been to every single speaker in those [12:59] mosques and I've been talking to I would [13:00] I would stand up and say I have [13:02] >> If you're gay, you need conversion [13:03] therapy because there's something wrong [13:04] with you. As a woman, you should be [13:06] better off being at home, being covered [13:08] up, guarding your chastity for your man. [13:10] >> Women are speaking up. You are an [13:11] anomaly. No, no, no. Right now, [13:13] according to Islam, you should not be [13:15] sitting here. You should not be sitting [13:16] in front of Dan. He's a non-mahram to [13:18] you. You're not Yeah, I've heard all of [13:19] that cuz I sit in all these spaces. I [13:21] have heard that. I have completely heard [13:23] them. [13:23] >> You've got it right. No, there's many [13:26] women that think like that. There's many [13:27] men that also think like that. You're [13:29] just picking on a group that is not the [13:31] actual, you know, the actual state of of [13:33] all of it. I really do believe that [13:35] because you I don't I'm not taking away [13:36] your experience. I'm not taking away [13:38] what you think. And I do acknowledge the [13:40] fact that you are not Muslim and you [13:41] have all right to do that. [13:47] All right. [13:49] Let's unpack what we just watched. [13:52] So, the structure of this entire [13:54] debate [13:56] is one side presenting lived experience [13:58] and primary sources [14:00] and the other side doing everything [14:01] possible to shrink the frame. Let me [14:03] explain what I mean by that. [14:05] Every time Woten or Nuriya tries to [14:08] expand the context, what does Islamic [14:10] law actually say? What happened in [14:13] Dubai? What's happening with the [14:14] grooming gangs in Britain? Faheema pulls [14:17] it back. That's extreme countries. Those [14:19] aren't real scholars. That's not real [14:21] Islam. Every religion has its problems. [14:24] This is a pattern [14:27] that I've talked about many times [14:28] that the more context you bring in [14:31] the more you expand the [14:34] lens, widen the lens of what you're [14:36] looking at [14:38] the harder [14:40] it is to hold these these denial [14:43] positions. So, the move is always to [14:45] narrow the context down to make it more [14:47] manageable to hold these positions. And [14:49] that's why Robert Spencer's book [14:52] matters so much for this conversation. [14:55] His book Holy Hell. [14:57] Because [14:59] in Spencer doesn't allow you to narrow [15:01] the context. He doesn't allow you to [15:03] say, "Oh, that's just some extremists or [15:04] that's just, you know, that's not real [15:06] Islam or the problem's not as bad as you [15:08] think." He goes to the primary sources. [15:11] Not fringe websites, not extremist [15:13] pamphlets, but the two most [15:14] authoritative Hadith collections in all [15:16] of Islam, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih [15:19] Muslim. He goes to Ibn Kathir whose [15:21] Quranic commentary is still used in [15:24] Islamic institutions worldwide. He goes [15:26] to mainstream contemporary Muftis and [15:29] fatwas, recent fatwas. [15:31] And what he finds, documented [15:33] meticulously, [15:34] is that the treatment of non-Muslim [15:36] women, non-Muslim women, as legitimate [15:38] targets, [15:40] as milk al-yamin, those whom your right [15:43] hand possesses, [15:44] is not an an aberration. It's specific, [15:48] named doctrine rooted in named Quran [15:52] verses. [15:53] And he lists them. [15:56] With named classical authorities who are [15:58] unanimous on their meaning. [16:02] You know, this also goes into what [16:03] happened on October 7th. The rapes that [16:05] took place on October 7th [16:08] were not just some some boys running [16:10] wild in the in while they were doing the [16:13] killing. [16:15] They this was part of the process. They [16:17] were told this in advance. They were [16:19] prepared to commit rapes. There was a [16:20] pattern to the rapes. [16:24] They had rulings from their Imams ahead [16:26] of October 7th [16:28] that and this is all this has all been [16:30] documented by the reports on the sexual [16:32] crimes of October 7th. In the various [16:34] reports that have come out, watch the [16:35] recent video. We just posted a video on [16:37] this. [16:39] Um we just posted a video on this [16:41] on the Israel 365 news [16:45] uh YouTube channel. And we also posted [16:46] an earlier video on this on the Israel [16:48] 365 news YouTube channel back in July [16:51] when our first report came out. In fact, [16:54] if you go to the Israel 365 news YouTube [16:56] channel and you click on the videos and [16:59] you sort them by most viewed video, one [17:02] of the top videos there is about this [17:04] topic. [17:06] When Nuria describes the four-witness [17:08] standard to prove rape for men, [17:12] right, that's not something invented by [17:14] a corrupt Emirati judge. That's the [17:17] Quranic evidentiary standard rooted in [17:20] Islamic law applied in courts currently [17:23] across the Muslim world. So when Faheema [17:24] says my scholars are very few and [17:27] limited, [17:28] my scholars, my more liberal scholars, [17:31] she's actually making Robert Spencer's [17:33] point for him. [17:35] She's making Nuriya's point for her. [17:37] She's telling you that the dominant [17:39] tradition, the one running the courts [17:41] and the mosques and the legal systems in [17:43] majority Muslim countries is not her [17:45] version. Her version is the minority. [17:49] And the version that sent Nuriya to an [17:51] exorcist [17:53] that threatened her with arrest for [17:55] leaving her husband, that's the [17:56] mainstream. [18:00] I want to be clear cuz I always want to [18:02] be precise. I'm not saying every [18:03] Muslim's a threat to women. Faheema [18:06] clearly isn't. [18:07] But the debate here is not about [18:09] individual Muslims. It's about the [18:10] system, the religious system, the legal [18:12] and theological tradition, the culture, [18:15] what is considered acceptable. [18:18] And on that question, the sources are [18:19] what they are. [18:22] The evidence is what it is. You can't [18:24] wish it away by saying my scholars are [18:26] nicer. [18:27] Now I hope that whatever her nicer [18:29] minority scholars are, I hope they win [18:31] the day and they convince Muslims to [18:33] back away from this [18:36] from their tradition. [18:39] But it is what it is. [18:42] You know, there's one moment in that [18:43] clip. I mentioned it before, but [18:46] I can't let it go. [18:49] Nuriya says to Faheema, "If you had [18:50] children, the judges told me you would [18:52] have been screwed." [18:55] Under classical Islamic jurisprudence, [18:57] child custody reverts to the father. [18:59] This is fiqh. [19:01] It's It's Islamic law, not culture. [19:04] It's not a regional [19:06] holdover. [19:09] And Faheema's response essentially is a [19:11] lot of women actually want that. [19:15] I mentioned it earlier. [19:18] That sentence should haunt you. This is [19:19] what it sounds like when [19:22] when someone's defending a system [19:26] responding to the testimony of a victim [19:29] by telling them, "Well, actually [19:32] really people want this. Really the [19:34] women want this." [19:37] Spencer's title, holy hell, gets at [19:40] exactly this. The holy is the keyword. [19:43] What Nuri experienced wasn't random [19:45] criminal behavior. [19:48] It was religiously sanctioned. It was [19:50] legally enforced. It was theologically [19:53] grounded. [19:57] That's what makes it so resistant to the [19:58] kind of reforms that Faheema is saying [20:01] that she's a part of. [20:03] You can't reform what the mainstream [20:05] tradition doesn't recognize as a [20:06] problem. [20:11] You know, as you watch this clip [20:13] you got to think about, you know, what [20:14] is you know, what do we as Westerners [20:17] owe these women who are being oppressed? [20:21] You know, there's the there's the [20:22] bigotry of low expectation. When we say, [20:23] "Oh, that's the Muslim world. Let them [20:25] govern their own affairs." [20:28] And and that statement by Faheema, "Oh, [20:29] that women actually want that." [20:34] I'm actually treated as above men. She [20:36] even said that in there. Oh, yeah. [20:39] When you whitewash things like that, [20:41] it's very very it makes it even more [20:42] dangerous. [20:43] And we have to think about what our [20:44] responsibility is because, you know, if [20:46] we have responsibility for our for all [20:47] people who are suffering [20:49] then we have to think long and hard [20:51] about what is our responsibility to the [20:52] women of the Muslim world [20:54] as as moral people, as ethical people. [20:59] All right. [21:00] Thanks a lot for watching. [21:02] Uh drop a comment below. Let me know [21:03] what you thought of this video. It's a [21:04] little bit different than a lot of uh [21:06] videos that I I I make. I don't think [21:08] I've ever used [21:09] a conversation quite like this. It's a [21:12] bit of a [21:13] It's a bit of a screaming match. [21:15] But let me know what you thought of the [21:16] video. I'm interested in your comments. [21:18] I read as many comments as I can. Always [21:20] trying to get better at this. [21:22] Thanks for watching. God bless.
