Transcript [00:00] Owen Jones wasn't ready for this Israel [00:02] debate. Take a look. [00:04] >> Let me just start with you. Your [00:05] reaction to what Benjamin Mosa was [00:07] saying there about his conversion really [00:10] I guess from being a proud liberal [00:12] Zionist to somebody who believed that [00:14] the concept of Zionism is inherently [00:17] racist. [00:18] >> Uh obviously I reject his uh his opinion [00:21] about that. Uh to me and to the majority [00:24] of the Jewish community, Zionism is the [00:25] right to self-determination of the [00:27] Jewish people in their homeland, the [00:29] land of Israel. Uh it is not mutually [00:31] exclusive. It does not denote that no [00:33] one else has a right to [00:34] self-determination. It does not require [00:36] destroying anyone else. Uh despite how a [00:39] lot of people use it today to mean [00:41] disagreement or opposition to the [00:43] Israeli government or the state of [00:44] Israel, that's not actually what Zionism [00:46] is. uh to the vast majority of the [00:49] Jewish community who does either [00:50] identify as Zionist or identify with [00:52] Zionism. [00:54] >> Owen Jones. [00:55] >> Well, I mean the bits always missing [00:57] from that definition is the [00:58] self-determination of a people at the [01:00] expense of another. Nobody should object [01:02] to the self-determination of any people. [01:04] That should be a basic right. [01:05] >> Does Israel have a right to exist? [01:07] >> That's been a question. [01:08] >> I know this always annoys you, but under [01:10] international law, no state has the [01:11] right to exist. Peoples have the right [01:13] to self-determination and protections. [01:15] If we said that then we'd argue against [01:17] Scottish independence because we say the [01:18] UK has a right to exist and that's [01:19] contradicted by Scotland seceding. So I [01:21] don't accept that. What I'd say is look [01:23] when the Zionist movement was promised a [01:26] homeland in uh the state in the n in the [01:28] area of Palestine the nation of Pal [01:30] Palestine 90% were Arab Christians and [01:33] and Muslims that was inevitably going to [01:35] be at their expense. The first manifesto [01:37] of Zionism in 1897 defined just defined [01:42] were 90% Muslims and Christians. Well, [01:44] if you really want to go there, Emily, [01:46] it's because a large a large number of [01:47] Jewish people converted to Christianity [01:49] in Islam many centuries because of [01:51] multiple occupations and expulsions and [01:53] yes, colonial movements that took over [01:55] the land that was a large number. [01:57] >> What was it before Christianity? Oh, [02:00] that's right. It was Jewish. [02:02] >> This is why I think Zionism in these [02:04] arguments wraps itself up in knots. [02:05] Firstly, we can't start redrawing the [02:08] borders of the world based on what [02:09] happened 2,000 years ago. That's [02:11] generally just an absurdity. The second [02:13] point is what actually happened is large [02:15] numbers as I said did convert to Islam [02:17] and Christianity. Large numbers of [02:18] Palestinians are now being murdered by [02:20] Israel [02:21] are the direct descendant of the Jewish [02:23] people. Other Jewish people are from um [02:26] ancestrally they are from the from that [02:28] land. Others aren't. Others converted to [02:30] Judaism in the caucuses in the 8th and [02:32] 9th century. The point is I don't think [02:35] my my own view is the the persecution of [02:38] the Jewish people in Europe which is a [02:41] hideous crime which culminated in the [02:42] Holocaust is not a crime that the [02:45] Palestinian people should pay for. And [02:46] as I've said early on Edwin Montigue was [02:49] was named earlier by your previous [02:50] guest, the Jewish Secretary of State for [02:52] India. He didn't just argue it would [02:54] increase anti-semitism. He did argue [02:55] that. He said he warned that it would [02:58] privilege Jews above Muslims and [03:00] Christians and he feared it would cause [03:02] and I this is what he said it would mean [03:04] driving out its present inhabitants. [03:06] That's exactly what happened. The mass [03:08] exportion of the Palestinian people, the [03:09] vast majority in 1948. This was all [03:13] where about the nearly 1 million Misrai [03:16] Jews that were expelled from Arab [03:17] countries. You're completely silent [03:19] about this. And by the way, you you say [03:21] that no one has or sorry, excuse me, all [03:24] people have a right to [03:24] self-determination, right? If that's the [03:26] case, then why is this resolution that [03:28] we saw from the Green Party denying the [03:29] right to self-determination of the [03:31] Jewish people? Why does it require the [03:33] other? The first thing I said is that it [03:36] does not require the denial of [03:38] self-determination. [03:40] >> The most telling thing about the Green [03:42] Party resolution that went through is [03:43] the leader who inspired it, Palansky, [03:46] didn't vote. He abstained, which I [03:48] thought was an act of utter moral [03:50] cowardice. Regardless of the debate, if [03:53] you're the leader and this is happening [03:54] on your watch at your conference, you at [03:56] least show up. [03:58] >> Oh, he is campaigning for a crucial [03:59] bi-election. Come on. I mean, the thing [04:01] about the Greens is that he deliberately [04:03] deducted. [04:03] >> They are supposed I don't think that's [04:04] true. And I actually, what I really [04:06] resent at the moment is the onslaught [04:07] against him and his Jewish identity, [04:09] which has been repeatedly smeared and [04:12] stripped away. Look, as it happens, I [04:14] would prefer a one-state solution with [04:16] with equal rights for all, but I don't [04:18] think it's up to me to decide that. And [04:19] that's one area where I would disagree [04:20] with emotion, incidentally. But in terms [04:22] of the actual point, generally speaking, [04:24] you mentioned the expulsion of Mahay [04:26] Arabs. Well, I mean, that varies [04:27] actually [04:29] in in some places in some places that [04:31] did happen. For example, in Iraq, in [04:32] other places that didn't. In Morocco, [04:34] you had the mass immigration of people [04:36] not not violating. [04:38] That's a very that's a very large [04:39] number. In any case, again, but again, [04:42] the Palestinians didn't do that. And [04:43] again, this is where it always returns [04:45] to. [04:46] >> You can't have self-determination at the [04:48] expense of another people. That's [04:50] exactly what I said. The Palestinian [04:51] [laughter] exactly what I said. [04:53] They didn't expel Iraq's Arabs. Oh, [04:55] sorry. Iraq [laughter] has nothing to [04:56] do. [04:57] >> Let me bring in the other the other two [04:58] panelists. Um, Shabbos, welcome back to [05:00] Unsense. Anybody has to that land and [05:03] this has been the catalyst for the whole [05:05] conflict ever since. I mean, that's the [05:07] simple reading of it, right? Okay. Well, [05:10] yeah. First of all, it's good to see [05:11] you, Pierce. It's it's been a while. [05:12] You're looking good. It is a simple [05:14] definition, but I think that does a [05:16] tremendous disservice to the historical [05:17] complexities. So, let's be clear, there [05:19] never was a country called Palestine. It [05:20] never existed. The term came from the [05:22] emperor Hadrien after he expelled the [05:23] Jews um in 130 CE. And not only did he [05:26] wanted to remove the Jews geographically [05:28] from the land of Israel, but he wanted [05:29] to uh disconnect their attachment. So, [05:31] he named it after their ancestral [05:33] enemies, the Philistines, and improperly [05:35] came up with this new term, a [05:36] Palestinian. The only time the Muslim [05:38] Arabs living in the region we now call [05:40] Gaza or the West Bank were ever offered [05:41] their own state was under the Peel [05:43] Commission. They said no. Then they were [05:44] offered their own state in 1948. And not [05:46] only did they say no, but then they [05:47] said, "We're going to wage a war." So, I [05:49] agree the the history is complex, but [05:51] ultimately this is culmination of [05:53] decades and decades of terrible [05:54] Palestinian leadership refusing to put [05:56] the interests of their own people above [05:58] their hatred of hating Jews. In 2020, [06:00] President Donald Trump offered them [06:02] their own state yet again under the [06:03] peace uh uh peace plan and they said no. [06:06] Adah Omar offered their own state. They [06:07] said no. Aid Barack offered their own [06:09] state. They said no. The River Wire [06:10] Accords, they said no. So I agree. It's [06:11] a terrible situation if you're growing [06:13] up in Gaza or the West Bank as an [06:15] innocent civilian. But you are [06:16] problematically putting the blame on the [06:18] wrong people. It's not the people who [06:19] want to offer them their own state. It's [06:21] their leadership who continuously state [06:23] like explicitly, we don't want [06:25] coexistence. We don't want a [06:26] multi-racial, multi-thnic democracy. We [06:29] want the eradication of the Jew from the [06:30] river to the sea. It's literally like [06:31] paragraph. Are we seeing I mean all due [06:33] respect are we not seeing a similar [06:35] mentality in people like Bengir and [06:37] Smadridge who have made it pretty [06:39] crystal clear they want to get rid of [06:40] all the Palestinians from Gaza, all the [06:43] Palestinians from the West Bank. They [06:45] want much more than the river to the sea [06:47] in terms of a land grab. They are [06:50] actively encouraging appalling acts of [06:52] terrorism by settlers on the West Bank. [06:55] What's the difference? [06:56] >> Well, I'll tell you what the difference [06:57] is. The people of Israel in 3 weeks from [06:59] now will do something that the [07:00] Palestinians have been denied for the [07:02] last 25 years, which is vote in an [07:03] election and have a democracy. Mahmud [07:05] Abbas is 25 years into what's meant to [07:07] be a four-year term. So, if we want [07:09] emancipation and self-determination for [07:11] the Palestinian people, perhaps you can [07:13] have the spokesman of Fatah, who I just [07:15] debated yesterday, have him on your show [07:16] and ask him, "Why don't you ask your [07:18] boss to hold elections? I don't like [07:19] Bengavir. I don't like Smootrich, but [07:20] you know what's great about living in a [07:22] democracy is you can vote them out of [07:23] office. And I'm pretty confident, peers, [07:25] and if I'm wrong, have me back on your [07:26] show and I will apologize, but I'm [07:27] confident that the boogeyman that you [07:29] think the far-right BB settler [07:31] government is will cease to exist come [07:33] October 27th. And that's because again, [07:35] Israel has a democracy. People can vote. [07:37] And one of the [07:37] >> Well, I look I want to bring in a check, [07:39] but I mean I I hope that happens. I [07:41] think it's imperative actually for [07:44] Israel as a country and for its global [07:46] reputation that that happens because I [07:48] don't think they care. Netanyahu, [07:50] Smadri, Benavir. I don't think they care [07:53] about the crashing fall in Israel's [07:57] popularity around the world reflected in [07:59] polls which I never thought I'd see in [08:01] my lifetime. I never thought I'd see a [08:03] significant majority of Americans have a [08:05] negative view of Israel, but they do. [08:07] Um, [08:07] >> but they're subservient to the people of [08:09] Israel in a way that the Palestinian [08:10] leadership like Mahmud Abbas simply [08:12] aren't. That's why I find it remarkable [08:13] that when Hamas after the cease [08:15] >> Okay, let me bring in check. Let me [08:16] bring in Ch, you've been unusually [08:18] patient. Congratulations. Um, but Shane, [08:21] what's what's your view? Look, there [08:23] must be a body of Zionists who have a [08:27] completely nonviolent, non-reactionary [08:30] uh thought process about what it means [08:32] to be a Zionist, who just believe in [08:34] that um anti-defam league is a movement [08:37] for self-determination and statehood for [08:39] the Jewish people and their ancestral [08:41] homeland. Right? So this debate about [08:44] Zionism, does it not depend on what kind [08:47] of Zionist you're identifying as and how [08:49] you articulate it? [08:52] >> Yeah, 100%. As you and I have talked [08:55] about on the show before, Piers, there's [08:56] basically four different groups. There's [08:58] the people who are peace activists who [09:00] are Jewish. Uh they've been on uh with [09:02] us from day one. They're the most [09:04] wonderful human beings constantly [09:06] fighting for equality and peace. Then [09:08] there's the non-Zionists who generally [09:10] don't care. Then when you move into the [09:12] Zionist category, uh there are two [09:14] different kinds of Zionists. One is just [09:16] someone who's casual and doesn't know [09:18] the history of it, has no idea how [09:20] Zionism originated, and just views it as [09:23] Israel has a right to exist, and if [09:25] somebody says they're not a Zionist, [09:26] that means they want to wipe out Israel [09:28] and all the Jews. Now, they got [09:29] brainwashed into believing that, but [09:31] they genuinely believe it, and they [09:33] don't mean harmed by it. And then [09:35] there's the radical Zionists which are [09:37] almost everyone you see on television, [09:39] everyone in media, almost everyone in uh [09:42] involved in the government. And so those [09:44] folks believe in greater Israel. They [09:46] know what the Zionist project is. It is [09:48] the ethnic cleansing of the [09:49] Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians, [09:51] and all the way as you know from the [09:53] river to the sea is nothing compared, [09:55] which by the way Netanyahu is literally [09:56] said and then done. But now they're [09:59] talking about oh my god, from the river [10:01] to the river, from Nile to the [10:02] Euphrates. taking everywhere from Egypt [10:04] all the way up to Turkey. So, these [10:06] folks are in a cult. Uh, and I would [10:09] argue that the two people on this panel [10:10] are also in that cult. And look, I don't [10:14] want harm coming to Hold on, hold on, [10:16] hold on, hold on, hold on. [10:18] >> So, I don't want any harm coming to [10:20] anyone. And but we're trying to help our [10:23] Jewish brothers and sisters get out of [10:25] this cult. And peers, every day somebody [10:27] comes up to me. No, to be fair, not [10:29] every day, that's too much. But from [10:31] time to time, people come up to me and [10:33] say, "Oh, Jenk, I left Zionism and now I [10:36] see what it is." And I think it's done [10:38] great harm to the Jewish community. So, [10:40] you don't have to be a fascist and a [10:42] racist to be Jewish. That's nuts. And in [10:44] fact, 40% of Jewish Americans think that [10:47] what Israel did is a genocide. 61% of [10:50] Jewish Americans believe that there were [10:52] war crimes that Israel has committed. [10:55] So, the majority of Jews in America [10:57] believe Israel has committed war crimes. [10:59] 63% of them are against the current [11:01] Israeli government and they never get [11:03] any coverage on television. Television [11:06] is a giant Zionist propaganda operation [11:09] run by radical Zionists. That's why they [11:12] don't let other Jews on. They don't let [11:14] the majority of Jewish Americans state [11:17] their opinions, which is that they think [11:18] Israel has gone far too far. And the [11:21] more that people find out about it, they [11:23] see the history and it it turns out the [11:25] Zionist helped the Nazis. That's [11:27] literal. They broke an anti-Nazi boycott [11:29] in 1933 which was devastating to the [11:32] Jewish community and they were hated by [11:34] the rest of the Jews in the world. They [11:36] helped the Nazis uh attacked the British [11:38] in the Palestine mandate. Uh later the [11:41] Lehi terrorist group and all of their [11:43] original Zionists. I'm sorry it's [11:45] heartbreaking to a lot of Zionists that [11:47] don't know this and that are innocent [11:48] and don't mean it. But the reality is [11:50] they were all terrorists in the [11:52] beginning. They did the worst act of [11:54] terrorism in the Middle East was which [11:56] was bombing of the King David Hotel. [11:58] Almost all of Israel's original prime [12:00] ministers were terrorists who uh [12:02] believed in killing civilians. And [12:04] unfortunately, ethnic cleansing and [12:05] terrorism has worked for Israel. They [12:08] ethnically cleansed 750,000 Palestinians [12:11] in 1948. And what they learned from that [12:13] was our terrorism against Britain [12:15] worked. Our terrorism against the [12:16] Palestinians worked. And it is enabled [12:19] by the West. And they have captured the [12:20] west by capturing our governments. And [12:22] they are help they are forcing Americans [12:25] to finance their terrorism. And they're [12:28] pretending that all Jews agree with [12:30] their terrorism and their fascism when [12:32] that is definitely not true. [12:33] >> Okay, Emily, you were putting a lot of [12:34] faces. I will come to your own in a [12:36] second, but Emily, what's your response [12:37] to that? [12:37] >> This is a very fantastical definition of [12:39] Zionism that I [12:40] >> Are you part of the cult? First of all, [12:42] >> being absolutely not. Uh, but I I think [12:45] Chung just kind of makes things up in [12:47] his head as he goes along. a lot of a [12:49] lot of what you just heard. [12:50] >> You can verify every thing I said. Chen, [12:52] you don't define Zionism. The Jewish [12:54] community does. And that has nothing to [12:56] do with the fact that there's a lot of [12:57] opposition to the war going on now [12:58] because that's not what Zionism is. [13:00] Zionism is a belief. It's a belief in [13:03] the Jewish right to self-determination [13:04] in the land of Israel as we just [13:05] defined. So why you just went on a long [13:07] rant about a number of different things [13:09] that don't actually have to do with what [13:11] Zionism is, which is part of the problem [13:12] of what we're discussing now, that you [13:14] think criticism of the state of Israel [13:16] or criticism of the IDF and those [13:18] actions is being anti-ionist. No, being [13:21] anti-ionist is being against the [13:22] self-determination of the Jewish people [13:24] and only the Jewish people. It does not [13:26] make a determination about the [13:28] self-determination of other people, [13:29] including Palestinians, by the way. And [13:31] by the way, in 1948 when it was [13:33] declared, there was no Arab Palestinian [13:35] people as we see today. That is not even [13:37] how they defined themselves. So almost [13:40] everything that just came out of your [13:41] mouth is a complete fabrication made up [13:43] in your own mind in order to confirm [13:45] your own [13:48] ideology. [13:48] >> Tremendous job here by Emily Schrader [13:51] defending Israel and uh you know [13:52] exposing Owen Jones's double standard [13:56] trying to say that Zionism is racism [13:58] somehow. you know, I don't even I don't [14:00] even know where that slogan came from. [14:02] It's like they're they're they're really [14:03] good at like creating these slogans and [14:06] then making it some kind of like [14:08] reality, you know, just speaking it into [14:10] existence. Look, it's a genocide. Oh, [14:12] but the population has gone up. Oh, uh, [14:15] but it's still a genocide somehow. Or [14:17] it's an apartheid, but oh, Arabs live in [14:19] Israel. Oh, you know, but you know, [14:22] those are special Arabs. So, so that [14:24] that is really what their entire [14:25] movement is about is, you know, claim [14:28] claim claim going on offense and then [14:31] regardless of if it's refuted, by the [14:33] time it's refuted, they've already [14:35] gotten their narrative out. So, it's [14:37] great to have people like Emily and [14:39] Shabas trying to push back. But the [14:41] reality is very often it doesn't work [14:44] because regardless of you debunking the [14:47] lies over and over again, they are on [14:50] offense. You know, we are playing [14:51] defense at this point. Thank you for [14:53] watching this video and I'll see you in [14:54] the next
