Transcript [00:00] It's the dialogue of the death. The [00:01] [clears throat] Shiites are waiting for [00:04] the return of their 12th descendant from [00:07] their prophet Muhammad who is their true [00:10] leader who disappeared and I'm going to [00:12] tell you we're not even sure he existed [00:14] in 873 but he will return. My question [00:17] then using an Iranian mindset is is he [00:21] alive? If you, the Iranians, are telling [00:23] me that this guy, that every decision [00:25] has to be signed off by this one person, [00:27] Mosha, [00:29] and I've never seen him, I've never even [00:31] seen a video of him talking. I don't and [00:34] we have no we have no verifiable [00:36] evidence that he's alive. Show me that [00:38] he's alive. And the reason I suggest [00:40] this is not because they will, cuz they [00:41] can't. Hear me out. If this challenge [00:43] was made publicly, the Iranian people, [00:46] if it if it kind of if it became obvious [00:49] that Moshaba is dead or incapacitated, [00:53] that could destabilize the regime in a [00:55] way that all of these bombings couldn't. [00:57] Am I wrong? Welcome to this episode of [01:00] Shouldertoshoulder, a podcast where a [01:02] pastor and a rabbi get to the heart of [01:03] issues that matter to people of faith. [01:05] I'm Pastor Doug Reid here with my friend [01:07] Rabbi Pesaki. And on this episode, we'll [01:10] be having a conversation with Middle [01:11] East specialist Dr. Harold RH, who [01:13] served as an advisor on Islamic affairs [01:16] to the US Secretary of Defense from 1982 [01:19] to 2010. Before we jump into our podcast [01:22] conversation today, please like our [01:24] Facebook page and join our Facebook [01:26] group, the Shoulder-to-Ser Community, [01:27] where you can interact with Pesak and me [01:30] all week long. 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Peso, each and every week we [02:15] have incredible products and initiatives [02:16] going on at Israel 365 that we get [02:19] behind. What are we supporting today? [02:23] Well, everyone listening to this podcast [02:25] is familiar with the issue that we have [02:27] mentioned many times that younger [02:29] Christians in America have been drifting [02:33] away from support for Israel. Not that [02:34] they're necessarily becoming [02:36] anti-Israel, but there's less there's [02:38] less support. There's less concern for [02:40] Israel. They're more ambivalent about [02:41] Israel. Well, Israel 365 has been doing [02:44] something about it. And we started this [02:46] program a couple of years ago, and we've [02:48] been doing it more and more. A few times [02:49] a year, we bring groups of young [02:51] Christian leaders, usually just [02:53] postcolgate. Sometimes they're on the [02:55] youth ministry staffs of churches. We're [02:58] bringing young Christian leaders on [02:59] young leadership trips to Israel. Very [03:02] powerful trips. We take them, we show [03:04] them the political realities. We They [03:06] get to meet Jews who live in Israel and [03:09] spend a Shabbat with with Jews in [03:10] Israel. they really become empowered and [03:13] educated about how to bring Israel into [03:15] their ministry work and into their [03:17] leadership when they go back home. And [03:20] we are working on our next trips. And [03:22] these trips are funded entirely by [03:25] donors. They're they're funded by people [03:28] like you who care about this issue. And [03:31] it doesn't mean that we're looking for [03:32] people to, you know, to necessarily [03:34] bankroll an entire trip, although we're [03:35] more than happy to have a check with a [03:37] lot of zeros come in from one of our [03:39] listeners. But any amount that you want [03:42] to give, five bucks, 500 bucks, whatever [03:44] it is, go to israel365.com/trip. [03:49] That's really easy to remember. So even [03:51] if you're on the treadmill now or you're [03:52] or you're driving, you should easily [03:54] remember that. Israel365.com/trip. [03:58] And whatever you could give will help us [04:01] bring more young leaders to Israel on [04:04] our next young leadership trip. [04:07] I can't say how important that is enough [04:10] because a trip like that changed my life [04:12] in 2016 uh with Eagle's Wings. They do [04:15] the the same. But go over and support [04:17] Israel 365's initiative. It will change [04:21] a young pastor, a young leader, young [04:23] Christians life to get to Israel and [04:25] experience all the land and God has for [04:27] them uh in that place. Well, Pesak, uh [04:31] lots going on in the world. Uh our [04:33] YouTube is uh thumping right now, which [04:35] is really great to see so many uh likes [04:37] and comments. I I heard my Bass Pro Shop [04:40] hat got a bit of a stir, a bunch of [04:42] comments. Uh [04:44] >> someone asked, you know, someone asked [04:45] if if they were a if they were a sponsor [04:47] of the podcast, actually. [04:49] >> Well, maybe I should start just wearing [04:50] a different hat every episode. Or if [04:52] your company wants to sponsor the [04:54] podcast, I'll wear your hat and uh we [04:57] can do a different hat per episode and [04:59] have some fun with it. Uh, people are [05:00] funny and glad people are watching and [05:02] paying attention enough to notice that I [05:04] had a patriotic bass pro shop hat on. [05:07] But you should go over to Pesaki [05:10] YouTube, find Shouldertoshoulder, check [05:12] out where all of the episodes are going [05:14] up there as well. So, if you're [05:15] listening on audio, you can get the full [05:18] video experience and see our our [05:19] beautiful PA faces. And you'll notice [05:22] that Peso is looking a little scruffy uh [05:25] with the with the beard action going on [05:27] there because uh the 9inth of A is uh [05:30] approaching. Uh Pes, why don't you tell [05:31] our listeners a little bit about what's [05:33] going on with the 9th of A? [05:35] >> Yeah. So, the 9th of A is the [05:36] anniversary of the destruction of the [05:38] temple uh that happened 2,000 years ago. [05:42] In fact, it's it's actually the Hebrew [05:43] date of the destruction of the first and [05:45] second temple. God has a has an [05:47] interesting way of working that both [05:48] temples were destroyed on the same [05:50] calendar date on the Hebrew calendar [05:52] many, you know, centuries apart. But [05:54] because of that, we're in a period of [05:56] mourning leading up to the leading up to [05:58] this. In terms of what happened 2,000 [06:00] years ago, we're in a period between [06:02] when the siege of Jerusalem was broken [06:04] and they started and the Romans started [06:06] massacring and and and pillaging uh the [06:09] the city of Jerusalem until they finally [06:10] on the 9th of A reached the temple and [06:14] destroyed the temple. And there's a [06:17] variety of different customs that [06:18] different Jews have uh depending on [06:20] where they're from or what their [06:22] traditions are about how to commemorate [06:24] this morning. and one of them many [06:25] communities will not shave for this [06:26] period of time or be a little bit more [06:29] unckempt. So that's why I look this way. [06:31] I just wanted to share a thought in [06:32] advance of of the 9th of A which is this [06:35] Thursday. So this Thursday is a fast day [06:37] commemorating the 9th of A. [06:38] [sighs and gasps] [06:39] So next week I should be clean shaven [06:41] Doug. We should be all cleaned up. But [06:43] but I want to share with you you know [06:44] for me the 9th of A is a time to really [06:47] reflect on the entire [06:50] story of the exile. And there are [06:52] lament, you know, besides the book of [06:53] lamentations, we also say a lot of other [06:56] um lamentation poems that were written [06:59] throughout the centuries and they [07:00] commemorate various tragedies that [07:02] befell the Jewish people, various [07:03] persecutions we went through. So it [07:05] really is a day of contemplating [07:06] history. And on that note, I want to [07:08] share a fascinating letter with you that [07:11] was written in the 13th century in [07:13] Jerusalem. So the 13th century in [07:16] Jerusalem was a very rough time for [07:17] Jerusalem. For all of the tragedies that [07:20] have befallen Jerusalem, the 13th [07:22] century might be the most violent [07:23] century in Jerusalem's history. In in [07:26] the year 1228, the sixth crusade came [07:28] through. And then a few years later in [07:31] 1244, the Muslims came back in the other [07:33] direction and they destroyed the city of [07:34] Jerusalem in the process of taking it [07:36] back from the Christians. And then we [07:38] had the seventh crusade in 1250. And [07:40] then the Mongols and Tataris and Tatars [07:44] invaded in 1260. Uh [07:48] all of these invasions involved [07:49] massacres and destruction in Jerusalem. [07:51] Basically, the land of Israel was a war [07:53] zone and Jerusalem changed hands [07:55] numerous times in the 13th century. [07:57] That's all in a 35- year period what I [07:59] just shared with you, depending on who [08:00] was passing through. And in the year [08:04] 1267, [08:06] one of the the the greatest rabbi from [08:10] Spain at the time, one of the greatest [08:11] maybe the greatest rabbi in the world at [08:13] the time, Rabbi Moses Nakmanades, left [08:16] Spain and he traveled to Israel to live [08:20] out the the end of his life. He was in [08:21] his 70s and he was the leader of the [08:23] Jewish community in Spain. I'm not going [08:24] to get into the weeds now in the short [08:26] time we have about why he left Spain [08:28] when he did. There's there's a number of [08:30] different uh theories, [08:32] but he when he arrived in Jerusalem in [08:34] the year 1267, he wrote a letter back [08:38] home to his son. And we have a copy of [08:42] that letter, and I want to read it to [08:43] you. Here's the letter. He says, "May [08:46] God bless you, my son, Nakman, and may [08:48] God and may you see the good of [08:50] Jerusalem. May you see children of your [08:52] children, and may your table be like the [08:54] table of Abraham, our father. In the [08:56] holy city of Jerusalem, I write this [08:58] letter to you. For with praise and [09:00] thanks to the rock of my salvation, I [09:03] merited to arrive peacefully on the [09:05] ninth day of the month of Elul. And I [09:08] that's one month from now, by the way. [09:10] And I stayed in Jerusalem in peace until [09:13] the day after Yom Kipur, the day of [09:15] atonement. After which I am now planning [09:18] to travel to Hebrron, city of the graves [09:20] of our fathers, to pray there and to dig [09:23] a burial site for myself there with [09:25] God's help, which he did not do in the [09:26] end. What what can I tell you regarding [09:29] the land? For there is much neglect, and [09:31] the desolation is great. The general [09:34] rule is as follows. That which is holier [09:37] is more destroyed. Jerusalem is more [09:40] destroyed than anything else. Judea [09:42] [snorts] is more destroyed than the [09:44] Galilee. But Jerusalem with all her [09:46] destruction is very good. It has [09:49] approximately 2,000 inhabitants, around [09:52] 300 Christians among them, refugees from [09:55] the Sultan's sword. There are no Jews in [09:59] her in Jerusalem. For ever since the [10:01] Tatars invaded, they fled from there and [10:04] others were killed by their sword, [10:07] except for two brothers in the wool [10:10] dying business. They purchased the dyes [10:13] from the magistrate. And these two [10:15] brothers are joined by up to a quorum of [10:17] 10 men for communal worship in their [10:20] home on the Sabbaths. Behold, I have [10:23] encouraged them, and we found a [10:25] destroyed house built with marble [10:28] pillars with a beautiful dome, and we [10:30] took it as a synagogue, for the city is [10:32] abandoned. Anyone who wants to acquire a [10:35] destroyed building may do so." They [10:37] volunteered to repair the house. They [10:39] took the initiative and sent to Shahim [10:42] to bring Torah scrolls that were from [10:44] Jerusalem, but were taken there when the [10:47] Tatars invaded. Behold, they have now [10:50] established a synagogue, and there they [10:51] will pray. For many people come to [10:54] Jerusalem regularly, men and women from [10:56] Damascus and Aleppo, and all the regions [10:58] of the land, to see the temple site and [11:00] cry over it. He who granted me to see [11:03] Jerusalem in its state of destruction, [11:05] will grant us to see it rebuilt and [11:07] established when the glorious presence [11:09] of God returns to it. May you, my son, [11:13] and your siblings and the entire family, [11:15] all of you, merit seeing the good of [11:17] Jerusalem and the comfort of Zion, your [11:20] worried and rejoicing father, Moses [11:22] Nakmanades. P.S. Send my greetings to [11:25] Rabbi Moses, son of Solomon, your [11:27] mother's brother. I hereby tell him that [11:30] I went up to the Mount of Olives, which [11:32] is opposite the Temple Mount and [11:33] adjacent to it. Only the Valley of [11:36] Jehoshaphat separates them. And there [11:38] opposite the holy temple, I read the [11:41] verses that he composed with much [11:44] weeping. May he who caused his name to [11:47] dwell in the holy temple increase and [11:50] expand your peace with the peace of your [11:53] entire honored and holy community [11:55] forever and eternity. Amen. [11:59] >> Wow. [11:59] >> That's the letter. [12:01] Now this letter, [12:04] think about when this was this was a [12:05] brief period between the Tatar invasion [12:08] and seven years later gets there and he [12:12] says that the Torah scrolls and the and [12:14] the Jews there fled during the Tatar [12:17] invasion. What I believe the [12:20] significance of this letter is bigger [12:21] than anyone realizes because if you [12:23] think about the destruction of the [12:24] temple 2,000 years ago and the Roman [12:26] invasion, the Roman destruction to where [12:29] we are today, if you were to look at a [12:32] graph of the population of the Jewish [12:35] population in Jerusalem from that time [12:37] till today, the low point on that graph [12:41] is probably that seven-year period. [12:44] >> It's probably the only time in [12:45] Jerusalem's history that there was no [12:48] quorum of 10 men that there was no [12:50] active synagogue that there was no Torah [12:51] scroll there probably the only time that [12:53] brief period because there was always a [12:55] Jewish community a fledgling Jewish [12:56] community in Jerusalem and once [12:58] Nakmanades gets there and he calls them [13:00] back and they start a synagogue from [13:01] that point forward the community started [13:03] growing again and that synagogue it it [13:06] moved location in the 1500s a couple [13:08] hundred years after this but the [13:10] location it moved to in the 1500s is [13:11] still functioning and it's still named [13:13] after him it's the Nakman synagogue in [13:15] the old city it's around the it's not [13:17] far it's like a few hundred yards from [13:19] the original site, but that that [13:21] congregation still exists. Which means [13:24] that if you want to look at a point of [13:26] beginning where the where where the [13:28] arrow on the graph instead of going down [13:30] and leading to more destruction of the [13:33] Jewish presence in Jerusalem, where the [13:34] arrow starts pointing up and forever [13:37] after the Jewish community is growing, [13:40] it's that point [13:41] >> where he arrives in Jerusalem. So to me [13:43] there's there's kind there's something [13:45] very powerful about that exact moment in [13:48] history when Nakmanades gets to [13:49] Jerusalem and starts rebuilding the [13:51] community and it's never and ever since [13:54] then I mean there was the period between [13:55] 1948 and and 1967 where the old city was [13:58] in Jordanian's hands but that was the [13:59] old city but the community of Jerusalem [14:01] was already quite large at that point. [14:03] So this is to me this is, you know, this [14:05] captures to me what the spirit of tishab [14:08] is about where we contemplate all of the [14:09] all of the destruction and the darkness [14:11] and the and the seemingly eternal length [14:13] of the exile, but at the same time we [14:16] also take a step back and recognize, you [14:18] know, the the tremendous perseverance [14:21] and courage of the Jews throughout those [14:24] centuries to hold on and pass the baton [14:26] of survival to the next generation and [14:28] eventually lead us to where we are [14:30] today. So I wanted to share that that [14:31] that remarkable letter with you. I did [14:33] the translation myself. I I never saw it [14:35] anywhere in English translation, so I [14:36] translated it myself. [14:38] >> No, it's beautiful. And I think it just [14:40] points again to the faithfulness of God [14:42] that when you read the scriptures, he's [14:45] not slow in keeping his promises. He's [14:47] going to deliver. He's going to show up. [14:49] And even when there's two, he still [14:51] holds on to his promises. And I just [14:53] think that's such a a beautiful silver [14:55] lining to such a dark uh holiday where [14:59] uh not holiday necessarily, but a dark [15:01] day of remembrance. uh for the Jewish [15:03] people. And so uh I like that. I like [15:05] that it adds a layer of hope to uh [15:08] something that's so dark. [15:09] >> Amen. [15:11] All right. Uh I guess I'll bring in our [15:13] guest now. He's been waiting and and [15:15] we're really very much looking forward [15:16] to speaking with him. Harold RH received [15:20] his PhD from Columbia University in [15:22] Islamic history. He then had a very [15:23] short career teaching at the University [15:25] of Delaware before he started working [15:28] for the Pentagon. Starting in 1982, he [15:31] became uh the go-to person, a an adviser [15:34] on his on the Islamic world and he [15:37] served in a number of different uh [15:39] different roles in there and all the way [15:41] until 2010. And he is universally [15:44] acknowledged as one of the top experts [15:46] on the Middle East and on Iran in [15:48] particular. And there's so much more [15:50] that I could say about Harold Road. I [15:52] had the honor and and the great pleasure [15:54] of uh of getting to know Harold a little [15:56] bit recently. We had uh we had brunch [15:58] together in Jerusalem and uh it's really [16:01] it I'm so honored that you're here with [16:02] us, Harold. Welcome to the [16:04] Shoulder-to-Ser podcast. [16:06] >> Thank you, Pes. Thank you, Doug. [16:10] >> Great to have you on and really excited [16:12] to hear some of your journey and story [16:13] and uh get into some of the weeds here [16:15] with what's going on currently in Iran [16:18] and in the Middle East. [16:21] >> You know, Harold, let's get started with [16:22] where we are. You know, I mean, we'll [16:25] work back into your story, but I know [16:26] that I mentioned I mentioned your [16:28] education, but what I didn't mention is [16:30] that you also did part of your education [16:33] actually in Iran. And our viewers, I'll [16:36] let the cat out of the bag right now. [16:37] Our viewers will be interested to know [16:38] that you were actually in Iran when the [16:40] revolution happened in the late 1970s, [16:42] which is remarkable. Uh, and meaning I I [16:46] speak to our viewers right now, to our [16:47] listeners. Harold is not your normal [16:49] Middle East expert. He actually lived [16:51] through it. He was actually there at the [16:52] time. He knows Iran from the inside. So [16:54] Harold, where we are right now where we [16:57] had this period of thisou and this [16:59] negotiation and Trump keeps saying that [17:01] he wants them to come back and make [17:02] another deal [17:04] and it seems to me that these Western [17:07] leaders are just still not getting how [17:10] Iranians think. So, [17:13] where do you think we are in this in [17:16] this struggle to actually solve the Iran [17:19] problem and reach a a a time when this [17:22] brutal regime is no longer terrorizing [17:24] the earth? [17:26] >> Well, Iran is a very different culture [17:30] from the United States, from America, [17:32] from the West. [17:34] We look for things like compromise [17:38] in Persian and for that matter in in [17:40] Turkish and in Arabic. There is no [17:44] concept of compromise the way we have in [17:48] English. For example, let's say Doug, [17:51] you and I sit at the table. Let's say, [17:52] God forbid, we hate each other up to [17:54] now, but we know we got to get along and [17:56] we got to work on a project together. [17:59] What? And you and I sit across from the [18:01] table. We're skeptical at first, but we [18:05] I begin to give a little, you begin to [18:07] give a little. We begin to see, hey, [18:10] each of them sees we're really not bad [18:11] guys, [18:13] and we and we come to an agreement, [18:18] and we're both happy, but each of us [18:20] gave in a little. [18:23] In the Middle East, in none of those [18:25] languages is that concept of compromise. [18:28] There's only, you'll excuse how I'm [18:30] going to put this. There's only the [18:32] concept of to be compromised [18:36] and that has a very let's say um gross [18:40] meaning [18:42] and when then do you talk and you do [18:46] talk only after you have won if you have [18:51] won then the Doug you have won I have [18:54] lost [18:56] you tell me we're sitting down and then [18:58] you the winner are you dick dictate to [19:01] me the terms under which we will be in [19:05] the same place together [19:08] and I'm of course upset and angry but I [19:11] can't do anything about it because [19:12] you've overpowered me. [19:15] It's called am I I'm angry and I'm for [19:19] the next period of time anybody for [19:22] example if you were to say Harold let's [19:24] sit down and talk before you won you are [19:29] signaling to me that either you don't [19:31] have the ability or the will to do what [19:34] is necessary to win how do I understand [19:38] that you want to talk before you won it [19:41] shows that you're weak and what in the [19:43] Middle East do you do when you uh see [19:48] your enemy weak, you pounce, you strike, [19:52] you attack. I want to apply this to the [19:55] so-called memorandum of understanding. [19:59] And I'm going to also I can explain what [20:01] the other side is, how they see it. And [20:03] that's key here. America wants to talk [20:07] before it won. [20:09] And uh that in essence says that it [20:13] doesn't it can't or it won't win. Either [20:17] shows weakness. That is what our side [20:20] did when we summon uh we we we we said [20:26] let's talk [20:28] and what did the Iranians do and they [20:30] and they've proved exactly but first of [20:33] all I want to talk who the other side [20:35] is. the other side, the Iranians. [20:39] The truth is, we don't really know for [20:41] sure who's in power, who has real power. [20:45] Americans look for moderates. Doug, you [20:48] and I were American and we sitting down [20:51] and um you expect me to be moderate. I [20:55] expect you to be moderate. And that's [20:57] how we come to an agreement. [20:59] In the Middle East, we look for the [21:02] America looks for people like that to [21:04] talk with. [21:06] I hear my dub the sir moderate and [21:10] [laughter] what happens is that we and [21:13] we we haven't the clue how the other [21:15] other side is thinking about this and if [21:18] I may say so from what I have seen of [21:22] the the American negotiators they're [21:25] very smart people in the fields that [21:28] they have but they're not smart about [21:30] Iran and they're not smart about the [21:33] Arabs and they're definitely also So not [21:36] smart about about the Turks. [21:39] And why is this important here? The [21:42] people we have been talking to to the [21:44] best of our knowledge aren't calling the [21:46] shots in Iran. And that's like pulling a [21:49] guy off the street and say you'll be the [21:51] you negotiate with me. This is absurd. [21:54] You're both laughing or smiling. That's [21:57] what we have done. [22:00] And the other side knows very well how [22:03] to take advantage of. The more we have [22:05] given in, what have we seen the Iranians [22:07] do? The more they have attacked. And we [22:11] said they're crazy. Now our president [22:14] says, um, [clears throat] you know, he's [22:16] like, are are these guys nuts? [22:20] I'm giving them something. [22:22] I mean, you [clears throat] know, let's [22:24] talk about this. And the Iranians would [22:27] say, "You are, and I'm going to leave [22:30] out one curse word, weak." [22:34] The f word before the word weak. I'm [22:36] going to get you, buddy. Bunny. And I [22:40] have other words that I would use. And [22:41] that's what the other eye how the other [22:43] side sees it. More importantly, who is [22:47] on the other side? And how how can we [22:50] know? And I want to talk about their [22:52] so-called leader, Muchaba, the son of [22:55] the last leader of Iran, tyrant. They [22:59] use the word word in Persian is the [23:02] supreme leader. [23:04] He says, "Son, the guy, look, I'm sort [23:08] of educated in Islam. I I again when I [23:11] went to university in Iran and before [23:12] that in the Arab world and in Turkey [23:16] um I I learned something about the [23:18] culture and um what what I'm what I'm [23:24] seeing is that it's the dialogue of the [23:28] death and and [23:32] no one has heard of him a word that he's [23:35] uttered has seen him. There is something [23:38] called the prayer for the dead that the [23:42] that the sons have to say when their [23:44] father dies and they have to say it at [23:47] the grave at the burial. [23:51] It's called [23:53] it's Arabic but used in Persian. Most [23:56] religious terms in Persian are of Arabic [23:58] origin because the religion comes from [24:02] from Arabic from from the Arabs. And [24:05] it's like where was Muchi? Wasn't there [24:09] at one point if you remember they had a [24:10] cardboard picture of him they put up. [24:15] Now their leader the Shiites are waiting [24:19] for the return of their 12th descendant [24:24] from their prophet Muhammad who is their [24:27] true leader who disappeared. And I'm [24:30] going to tell you, we're not even sure [24:31] he existed in 873. But he will return [24:35] and there is a well in G is the [24:38] religious capital if you wish in Iran [24:40] where most of the seminaries are. There [24:44] are other places including in Mashad in [24:46] northeast Iran where I was studying [24:49] and um the these [24:52] it's absurd here. The man wasn't there. [24:56] My question then using an Iranian [24:59] mindset is is he alive or is he like the [25:03] 12th Imam who disappeared that we know [25:06] he's going to come back and save us. [25:09] Now there are two groups if you wish in [25:12] in in Islam and in Shiite Islam. Shiite [25:14] and Sunni Islam are almost two different [25:17] religions from the very beginning. the [25:20] god we call Allah. He is one God and um [25:26] uh the Quran is their holy book which is [25:29] supposedly the word of God for a Muslim [25:32] but they don't even agree what it means [25:34] after that everything else their [25:36] traditions are completely different [25:37] shiates and Sunnis and the more you [25:39] learn about both and I've lived in both [25:41] worlds and I know their languages [25:44] studied at their universities the more [25:47] you realize they don't agree on even [25:49] what is this what Islam is and they [25:52] fight over it and there's no way of [25:56] making peace. Peace as we understand it [25:59] which in the United States and Hebrew is [26:03] the perfect language for this. The word [26:05] shalom comes from the root of [26:07] completeness in Hebrew in most words [26:11] having to letting bygones be bygones. [26:14] The word to pay [26:16] you and I you're a store owner. I come [26:18] into your store. Um, we bargain for [26:22] whatever the price is. You hand me the [26:26] goods, I hand you the money. That is [26:28] called to pay that. It's over. I own the [26:31] good. You have the money. And that's [26:34] final. And it's the when you negotiate, [26:36] it's bygones be bygones. The way we do [26:39] it. Okay. I mean, again, God forbid, [26:42] Doug, from our previous example, you and [26:45] I hated each other and we we buried the [26:49] hatchet. We shook hands. And the pastor [26:51] is we know it, but we're getting along [26:54] now and we do our damnest. But that's [26:56] not the Middle East. Now, the Shiites [26:59] and the Sunnis have been fighting since [27:01] their prophet Muhammad [clears throat] [27:03] died on who should run Islam. the family [27:07] and they're called Shiites, the family [27:09] of the prophet or it let's call it was [27:12] the Meccan ar the aristocracy of the [27:14] city of Mecca where is today the the [27:17] holy city of Islam now they can't put it [27:21] behind them there is no completeness and [27:24] it's interesting to the word in Arabic [27:28] for to buy [27:30] or to pay has nothing to do with [27:34] completeness it comes some da da I work [27:38] for the ministry of defense in in [27:40] Arabic, Turkish and Persian. Uh Turkish [27:43] is slightly different today. Um uh it [27:47] means to defend. The reason I'm giving [27:50] you the money p on the deal you and I [27:53] were making on whatever I was buying [27:55] from you is I'm handing you the money in [27:57] the hopes that you won't come after me. [28:00] But there's never completely there's [28:01] never bygones be bygones. So memorandums [28:05] of understanding, they have no concept [28:07] of this. A piece of paper that you sign [28:10] in the Middle East is nothing more. We [28:13] want the Americans want you to do it. [28:15] We'll do it. We Middle Easterners, but [28:18] it means nothing to us. And I'll give [28:20] you a perfect example. I remember a [28:22] businessman friend of mine in Iran. I [28:25] again I was going to university. I lived [28:27] an Iranian life. I did not live with [28:29] Americans. [28:31] And uh uh the the American he had a [28:35] contract for example and I remember a [28:37] guy who had a 12month contract and every [28:41] month was paid whatever and and they [28:44] were very good about paying the 12th [28:46] month came end of contract [28:50] and he wasn't paid. [28:53] Oh, I'm sorry. I I'm I'm just I'm [28:55] getting the money. I didn't have it and [28:57] all that. it is. You must defeat the [29:00] they have they were defeating my friend. [29:04] What happens? Um he was angry. You want [29:08] to fight it in court? There's no court [29:09] that's going to take care of this in [29:11] Iran. Um and what happens? The uh all of [29:16] a sudden they the Iranians that he was [29:19] dealing with said, you know, they needed [29:21] his his skill that no other company [29:24] could provide. So they came back to him [29:27] and apologized profusely [29:30] lying that we here we found the money. [29:33] Here's what we owe you. Now what does [29:36] the American say? You got me once. [29:40] You're not going to get me now. Fine. [29:43] I'll give you. Okay. I say to myself, [29:47] I'm going to take that's I'm the only [29:49] one who's got the skill you need. I'm [29:51] going to take uh whatever the sum of [29:54] money I want, add an extra month or two, [29:58] divide it by 11 because that's what I [30:00] think I'm going to get only 11 payments [30:03] [laughter] [30:05] and the hell with you. But I now know [30:08] that it's the negotiation. It's always [30:10] tense and we think we got to memorize [30:12] them of understanding and we're going to [30:14] get whatever. Unfortunately, [30:17] it seems now that the the the way that [30:20] our president, and I'm pro-president [30:23] Trump, um has been talking with them, [30:26] he's been doing so many things that he [30:29] gets them to a point and he doesn't want [30:32] to finish them off. And that's what you [30:35] have to do in the Middle East. And once [30:37] you go like this, and it's done very [30:40] politely because you got to I got to [30:41] make sure I don't want to destroy you, [30:43] but I I'm going to dictate the terms [30:45] because I won and you lost. I don't [30:47] remember who won the deal between you [30:48] and me before, but it doesn't matter. [30:50] You get my point. [30:51] >> Yeah. [30:52] >> And this is the dialogue of the death. [30:54] And they know how to we do things and [30:57] they use it and they are the nicest. [31:00] They're very good-looking people. Men [31:02] and the women both very good. and they [31:05] smile and they know how to bamboozle [31:09] you. [31:12] They're they're wonderful people. And I [31:13] want to tell you from my point of view, [31:15] their food is the best in the world. [31:17] Their cultural is subtle. It's [31:19] beautiful, but it's skin deep. And the [31:21] problem is Iranians themselves don't [31:23] know how to handle this. [31:26] Um, and but but you know that a deal is [31:29] never a deal. [31:30] >> Okay. [31:33] So I I [31:36] >> No, it totally makes sense. So we're in [31:38] a position of weakness up until the up [31:42] by choice up until the point President [31:44] Trump has decided now theou's done and [31:47] they've started bombing things and he [31:50] seems really upset about the air base in [31:52] Jordan and and the couple of troops [31:55] there that were killed and several [31:57] others that were wounded and it seems [31:59] like he's going to take the gloves off. [32:01] Let's say you get a phone call from Pete [32:03] Hegsth. You get a phone call from the [32:05] White House. They say, "We would like [32:07] you to come in and advise us. What are [32:09] we not doing correctly?" What What are [32:11] the What's the first thing you're going [32:12] to say to President Trump or to uh the [32:15] Secretary of State? What What is going [32:17] to be your advice at this stage in the [32:20] game? [32:21] >> You must win. How do we define winning? [32:25] I'm saying you go I'm not I'm not [32:26] looking for boots on the ground. I don't [32:29] want Americans there. [32:30] But you must take out the um the money [32:36] that the the government uses [32:39] to what little it has cuz the country is [32:42] in unbelievably economically poor shape. [32:44] But the money is being used to fund [32:48] all the military activities and their [32:50] proxies abroad and all that. No, you [32:53] want to get them like this. you're [32:56] you're choking them where they politely [32:59] find a way and believe me they're damn [33:01] good at getting finding a way out and [33:04] and then the president says now let's [33:08] talk [33:10] and the president dictates the terms [33:13] what I would say is Iran's a wonderful [33:16] place with a an amazing history it's the [33:20] first in the book of Esther in the Bible [33:22] it starts out with the kingdom of Persia [33:26] which is Iran is has 127 different [33:30] nations and the laws by which they are [33:33] governed among themselves are different [33:36] and we that's what Iran is Iran is [33:39] itself an empire right now with many [33:41] different ethnicities [33:43] and the answer is you let everybody get [33:46] along you don't dictate you need one [33:48] language but culturally I don't care [33:50] what you do at home as long as you don't [33:52] bother me and it's basically the thing [33:55] That sounds in some ways very American. [33:57] You don't care what your neighbor is [33:58] doing as long as he's not blasting music [34:00] at midnight and you want to sleep. [34:04] There's something there. This Iran has [34:06] been around for 2600 years and they are [34:09] survivors. They know how to make it [34:11] work. But we have to eliminate this [34:14] regime and we don't it's doable and and [34:17] I'm I'm very sure that in my 28 years [34:21] working at the Pentagon, people know how [34:23] to do this. and the Israelis and the [34:26] Americans who worked so well in the [34:28] 12-day war together. Unbelievable how [34:31] well they worked. The Israelis had the [34:33] best intelligence from what I [34:34] understand. I've had Americans galore [34:36] tell me this. And the the look at the [34:39] talk with the American pilots who were [34:41] were doing the re um oh what do you call [34:44] it? Refueling of the airplanes in the [34:47] air. They all getting along like one [34:49] team [34:51] and that works. And America has awesome [34:54] strengths. Israel has awesome strengths. [34:58] Let them do it together. What do you see [35:01] right now? Iran has said [35:02] straightforwardly. Whom are they [35:04] hitting? American bases everywhere [35:06] because America, I'm saying, is chosen [35:09] to be weak. Is weak from their point of [35:11] view, no chosen. It is weak. And the [35:14] Arabs are weak. And the Persians hate [35:16] the Arabs. And the Arabs hate the [35:18] Persians, too. And And the Iranians are [35:22] straightforward. We don't there are no [35:23] missiles going to Israel. We don't want [35:25] to deal with Israel because they know [35:28] Israel's had it and if they do it, [35:30] Israel can do whatever it wants. It can [35:33] take out the regime. Uh [clears throat] [35:36] and um and uh that they don't want. [35:39] >> So Harold, on that point about taking [35:41] out the regime, let I want to talk about [35:43] the Iranian people. We just saw this big [35:45] funeral where there were throngs in the [35:48] streets and I I mean [35:50] >> supposedly [35:51] >> well supposedly I I mean part of this is [35:52] because I've spoken to you and you [35:54] educated me about how Iranians think and [35:56] I want to I want our audience to hear [35:58] some of that when we see these throngs [36:00] in the street and I even had some people [36:01] in America that I'm friendly with who [36:03] said, "Oh my gosh, you guys like [36:05] American people in the political space [36:07] that I that I communicate with who said [36:08] you guys were saying that they didn't [36:10] really have support of the people. Look [36:12] at those crowds. Trump fell for it, too. [36:14] He said, "Oh, wow. They told me he was [36:15] not popular, but look at these crowds." [36:18] [snorts] [36:19] Educate us about how the Iranian people [36:22] think and and what might be going on [36:25] when we see these massive crowds versus [36:27] hearing that most Iranian people are [36:29] opposed to the regime. Get us into the [36:31] heads of the Iranian people. [36:34] They must be with the winner. You see [36:36] what I'm doing? I put my finger up. I [36:38] want to figure where the wind is coming [36:40] from, cuz that's the winner. And today [36:44] Pesak, I'm totally pro pesak because you [36:46] got the goal. You got you're you're [36:48] you're strong. And then I see there's [36:51] this other guy named Doug [36:54] and Doug is doing things and you're not [36:57] responding. So in the middle of the [36:59] sentence, I switch my support to thug [37:03] and the Iran is the first culture [37:06] conquered by the pe the Arabs coming out [37:08] of Arabia with their new religion Islam [37:12] to that their culture survived. They [37:14] were an empire for 1100 years by then [37:17] and they know how to bow down to pretend [37:20] all sorts of things and and survive. Now [37:24] um what and I'm sorry I've gone way off [37:27] here and I don't remember what question [37:30] was [37:30] >> I I want to understand meaning does the [37:33] regime have support of the people does [37:35] it not have support of the people [37:37] [clears throat] where are the Iranian [37:38] people right now [37:39] >> thank you the support is this or that [37:41] the the people went out in droves when [37:45] they perceived that the regime was weak [37:48] and what did its President Trump [37:53] uh do. He stopped the war, the 12-day [37:57] war, [37:59] and he told the Israelis to stop, and [38:01] they did. The Israelis, from what I [38:02] understand, wanted to finish the job, [38:04] and from what I understand from people [38:07] within Iran and uh and and elsewhere [38:11] that that they were right on the [38:14] precipice [38:16] of destroying the regime. How can we [38:18] know? We can't know the future and that [38:19] would have been the future back then, [38:21] but there was a very good chance that [38:23] that would happen. But I think and I [38:26] don't know I don't know President Trump, [38:29] but he he wants deals and what is the [38:32] deal? I'm you know let's make one. [38:35] That's it. And I hereby W sir moderate [38:38] and you're the one I'm negotiating and [38:40] there's no deal. And the more that [38:42] America gave in, [38:45] we said we couldn't understand why are [38:48] they doing this. Now there's a CN not CN [38:51] a Fox News uh com uh commentator who is [38:54] very smart Brian Kilmeid I think his [38:57] name is and he said he who is so he's [39:02] proTrump and he said why did we have [39:05] these negotiators Witco and Kushner [39:09] who they they may have done very well [39:13] negot in financially but just because [39:16] you've done well financially doesn't [39:17] mean you understand the mentality of [39:20] people that don't think like you do in [39:23] America. Maybe that would have worked [39:25] and you know and there would have been [39:26] marvelous people to have on your team. [39:29] But Brian said why do we have those [39:31] people doing the negotiations or the [39:34] talks because they're not negotiations. [39:37] Harold [39:39] Harold if you're saying that [39:40] >> please this is a those crowds [39:44] >> if they are very very good in the [39:46] pictures that they have shown there are [39:48] many many people and I know this from [39:51] people who are wellconed inside of Iran [39:54] some of them who actually support the [39:56] regime we only saw the crowds who were [39:59] being given water and food the country [40:02] doesn't have water um and they were bust [40:05] in and the but there was another crowd [40:08] going the other way getting out of the [40:11] city. They don't want to be there for [40:13] all of this. We didn't see that. But [40:15] there are videos of people in the throng [40:19] supposedly going after the the the [40:21] casket and the and and and whatever to [40:24] bury this guy. [40:26] And then there are people going the [40:27] other way and we didn't have them. But I [40:30] I know I've seen videos of this. [40:33] No. Were they were they made up? Well, [40:36] that's the problem. I wasn't there to [40:38] know it, but I lived through the early [40:40] and midstages of the revolution in Iran. [40:44] And I watched people go, as I said [40:46] before, when they saw um um that the [40:50] Shaw was not either doing or either [40:52] willing or capable of doing what was [40:53] necessary to keep himself in power. And [40:56] all of a sudden, people at my university [40:59] were out on the street yelling, "Death [41:01] to the sha along the I got furious [41:06] because I'm an American and I know that [41:10] if you lie to somebody, look at how our [41:12] justice system is supposed to work. You [41:14] raise your hand to tell the truth. [41:16] That's what we expect of people. You [41:18] don't look at someone in the eye. I'm [41:19] look I'm trying to look at both of you [41:21] in the pictures at the same time. If I [41:24] if if I'm lying to you, God forbid, I'm [41:26] going to there's something I'm going to [41:27] do in my physical behavior that you will [41:30] that because that's who we are as [41:32] Americans. [41:34] Well, um the Iranian will look you right [41:36] in the eyes. I was asking them the my [41:40] fellow students and who is your grand [41:42] ayatoll because every Iranian every [41:44] Shiite is supposed to have a grand [41:45] ayatoll that he looks to um for whether [41:49] it's um [clears throat] religious [41:51] guidance or financial if need be food [41:54] whatever it is these are big [41:56] organizations so I'm asking people in a [41:58] religious city mashad is where the [42:00] eighth imam descendant of the prophet [42:02] their prophet Muhammad we should never [42:04] call him the prophet Muhammad you know [42:07] Why? Because that means that we as [42:10] non-Muslims are accepting him as a [42:12] prophet. [42:15] Um I could go on and I could explain [42:16] what what President Obama did and [42:19] explain that sort of thing. You'll see [42:21] when he spoke in Cairo [42:25] and when he went there he says in the [42:27] beginning which we're all taught means [42:29] hi how you doing the crowd and he had [42:32] his Muslim Brotherhood people who [42:35] believe in taking over the world it's [42:38] all going to be their way the Muslim way [42:40] and they said he saysalamu they all [42:43] start clapping do you clap when someone [42:46] says hi how you doing it's absurd and [42:50] the whole speech that Obama gave at that [42:52] time. We in his case, I'm not so sure [42:55] what was really going on. I I think that [42:58] he certainly wasn't a dumb man. I think [43:00] he did it on purpose, but I had no proof [43:02] of that. Please, I beg you, all we are [43:07] lying to us. The pictures that you that [43:10] we saw and all that. I saw people Let me [43:12] just go back to my own story. I heard [43:14] these guys out in the streets yelling [43:16] long live. And [snorts] why did I get [43:18] mad? because I knew the names of six [43:21] grand ayatollas and I was asking [43:23] everybody and who's the grand ayatollah [43:25] that your family follows and what was [43:28] I'm in this holy city what are the [43:30] that's like asking okay Doug you have [43:34] tell me who Jesus was and you now we're [43:37] not who we are and you look at me and [43:41] say I don't know you're a Christian [43:45] >> okay [43:45] >> that's absurd [43:48] um But I don't know who you're going to [43:50] be talking to. And maybe if I tell you [43:53] what I re if you tell me rather because [43:55] I ask you the question, maybe you'll get [43:57] in trouble because I represent the [43:59] regime or maybe I'm a spy for the [44:01] regime. I'm giving you their mentality. [44:04] I mentioned the names of six grandats [44:06] and one of them was Ayatini. [44:09] I knew his name. I didn't know much [44:11] about him. I knew he was exiled. [44:14] And they looked at me in this holy city [44:16] and here I am talking to you, Doug, who [44:18] don't know who Jesus is. This is absurd. [44:22] Anyway, and they look at me straight. I [44:24] can't I don't know if you can see. I'm [44:25] Let me look directly at the camera. I'm [44:27] looking right into in your face is my [44:30] And it's like, you've just asked me [44:34] who's your grand look at me. I don't [44:35] know what you're talking about. And I'm [44:37] a [clears throat] Shiite. I'm not. I'm a [44:39] Shiite. And that's how the system works. [44:41] I had read so much about this. I knew [44:43] this before I went to Iran. And they [44:46] look and I'm mad now that these guys are [44:49] telling me I mentioned his name. [44:51] Beautiful. You straight in the eye and [44:53] I'm mad. What happens? They come back [44:55] from the demonstrations. I'm in my dorm [44:58] room. [44:59] There's a knock on the door. Harold, can [45:04] can we speak to you? And I'm furious at [45:06] these sobs, if you'll excuse my [45:07] language, because they lied to me. I'm [45:10] an American. [45:12] They come in and they closed the door [45:15] about five six guys I don't remember and [45:18] they looked and they said [45:21] K it it version is an Indo-Uropean [45:24] language meaning it's like French German [45:27] English there are a lot of similar words [45:30] k in French is who is and it's also in [45:33] colloquial Persian who is who is kmeni [45:36] they're coming to ask me who's kumeni [45:39] >> this is after they're demonstrating [45:41] ating in the street saying long live. [45:43] They come back to the dorm and they ask [45:45] you who Kmeni is. [45:46] >> Yeah. I want you to just get the mindset [45:48] here. That's all. So then I realized I [45:51] don't have a clue what really is going [45:53] on. [45:55] And I asked them, why are you asking me? [45:59] And I was furious. [46:01] And they said, well, we remember that [46:03] you were asking about who was our grand [46:05] ayatollah and you mentioned the name. [46:09] And what had happened is [46:12] already talking and you ask okay how you [46:16] doing [46:17] and then you start [46:20] after the goes [46:24] it doesn't matter what I ask you you [46:25] know and and everything was and Sha did [46:29] nothing about it neither and in the end [46:32] it was he did nothing about it he could [46:35] have done but he chose not to if this is [46:38] what they wanted I I can't do any I [46:39] can't stand up to this. [46:41] >> That's why I left [46:43] this police and that is like all these [46:46] public opinion surveys. They know the a [46:49] lot of these people were government [46:50] people in these huge marshes and they [46:53] also knew that their neighborhoods are [46:55] the the lo local let's call them capo [46:58] like concentration camp guard is out [47:01] there taking names of who's going and [47:03] who's staying at home. [47:05] >> [clears throat] [47:05] >> They were afraid they will be with the [47:08] winner and they have they the these [47:10] Iranians here am I a foreigner. I hadn't [47:14] the clue how to understand what was [47:15] going on. I thought I was really good. I [47:18] didn't know but they understood because [47:20] they grew up in that society. All I'm [47:22] arguing for is that we in the west can [47:27] do this if we want to hear. One of the [47:32] first things that I had written after I [47:34] left the Pentagon was a survey on [47:36] Iranian negotiating behavior which was a [47:38] summary and I think Pesaka gave you a [47:41] copy of that. [47:42] >> Yeah. [47:43] >> How they deal with situations [47:46] is fun reading. It's on my website which [47:49] if I can say and I don't it doesn't cost [47:51] anything. Harold.ro road spelled like [47:54] Rhode Island excuse me harold-road.com [47:59] and you can pull it up. is sources of [48:01] Iranian negotiating behavior and I'm an [48:04] expanded version is going to come out in [48:06] the next month or two. It's doable. We [48:08] can learn this. We are not dumb. [48:11] We've chosen ignorance. [48:13] >> Harold, I I have to ask. You said this [48:15] earlier and this has been bothering me. [48:17] You said they, you know, essentially the [48:18] negotiators, you know, just pull [48:20] somebody off the street to negotiate [48:21] with them. And Trump's made the joke [48:23] that they killed the first round of [48:24] leaders, they killed the second round of [48:26] leaders, and they're trying to find [48:27] somebody reasonable to negotiate with. [48:32] >> So, who are who is leading the country, [48:35] though? Is it just rogue factions of [48:37] IRGC [48:39] generals? Is it just various [48:41] politicians? Is it the speaker of the [48:43] house? Is it uh, you know, I saw that [48:45] they arrested the former president? Who [48:47] Who's actually in charge of Iran? [48:50] Let's say we don't know, and I'm going [48:54] to tell you that can change on a daily [48:56] basis. What we do know for sure is that [48:58] the various factions within the Iranian [49:02] Islamic Republican Guard Corp, IRGC, [49:07] they're fighting each other. And guess [49:09] what? When our enemies are fighting each [49:12] other, our job is to have we want both [49:15] sides to win. [laughter] [49:18] And they're the ones who seem to have [49:20] most of the power. And they are the most [49:22] extreme. They hate America. They hate [49:26] Israel. They hate the non-Muslim world. [49:30] And they're see we're concerned about [49:33] all these things we're talking about. [49:35] One of the things they're concerned [49:36] about is who should lead Islam. The [49:38] shits of the Sunnis. That problem [49:41] started in the year 631 AD CE, whatever [49:44] you'd like. And it can't be solved. [49:47] Remember, there's no way of putting by [49:48] guns behind. And this is the way that [49:52] they are showing to the homeless world. [49:54] Follow us. We are right. And who is in [49:57] our hands? President Trump. Cuz he's [50:01] giving into us. Please, I know that this [50:04] sounds absurd. But my job is not to even [50:08] to say who's right and who's wrong. It's [50:10] just to try to explain the mindset. This [50:12] is why I studied in the Arab world in [50:15] Turkey. My PhD is in Ottoman history of [50:18] what is today northern Israel and [50:19] southern Lebanon 16th century. My job [50:23] what a historian does is learn history [50:26] gives you the context the culture and [50:30] the answer is culture changes very [50:33] slowly. I I know that people do all [50:35] sorts of things especially after co um [50:39] if someone shakes hands right hand to [50:41] right hand you don't think twice about [50:43] but if someone and I'm I'm almost 77 so [50:46] I'm an old school guy if someone touches [50:49] you here [50:51] what's going on here now if they shake [50:55] hands with the left hand in the Middle [50:57] East the right hand is for social [50:59] greetings the left hand is for other [51:03] purposes es [51:06] uh to clean yourself, let's say. Um and [51:10] so uh their whole view of very simple [51:14] things is so different. These everything [51:17] I'm saying to you guys is learnable. [51:20] And I can only tell you that I did a lot [51:24] of behind thescenes negotiating with the [51:27] Turks in the 80s and early 90s. What [51:31] does what does it mean? I was on [51:32] delegations. I was a dumb mid-level [51:34] bureaucrat. [51:36] Um, what does this mean? I therefore I'm [51:40] a nothing. But why this is important is [51:44] nothings can are become very very [51:46] powerful. What would happen is, let me [51:48] just give you an example. When we [51:50] negotiated with the Turkish general [51:53] staff, the chief of the general staff, [51:57] what would happen is the Turks would ask [51:59] me to meet them. And sometimes at 2:00 [52:01] in the morning before the negotiations, [52:04] they said, "Here's a list of things that [52:05] we want to ask for. [52:09] Can do you know or can you get an answer [52:12] to what what if if we ask for it, what [52:14] will happen?" [52:16] And my job was then at 5 or so in the [52:20] morning to go to the head of the [52:21] American delegation and a guy named [52:23] Richard Pearl who in the earlier years [52:25] of the Reagan administration was simply [52:27] magnificent and he understood how to use [52:29] this mentality. I went and I worked for [52:32] Richard Pearl. I I he's an older brother [52:34] to me [52:36] still is. Anyway, he um I would go back [52:39] and I said, "Richard, here's what they [52:40] want. What's yes, what's no, and what's [52:42] maybe." [52:44] Okay, I I got the list. What do you [52:47] think we might get? But and I said, [52:49] "Okay, my job was then to go back to the [52:51] Turks, give them the list." Now, the [52:54] only one who spoke was the head of the [52:56] delegation. I'm talking about Turks [52:57] issues just the same in Iran and other [53:00] places. Um, and then I gave them the [53:03] list and the head of that is the Turkish [53:06] chief of staff or the whoever was [53:08] running in would then ask for various [53:12] things. He only asked for things that he [53:16] knew he was going to get an answer. The [53:18] answer would be yes. Why? He This is all [53:22] it gives him personal honor. Look at me. [53:26] I got the Americans to agree to all [53:28] these things [53:28] >> to agree to everything I asked for. [53:31] >> And then the questions [laughter] of [53:34] >> yes may maybe yes. [53:37] Could we what about these things? He [53:40] would let pick like one or two and the [53:43] ones that I thought were maybe the and [53:45] here's the I was the nobody, but I'm the [53:48] one bringing things back and forth. I'm [53:50] just sitting there doodling behind us as [53:53] they're they're doing their thing. And [53:55] they and then uh and and the ones I [53:58] remember that were maybe they were [54:00] misies and there was a good chance they [54:03] would work and Richard Pearl gave [54:05] answers which I think we can make it [54:08] work. I'm not 100% sure. No one would [54:10] ever say that on the Turkish side. Um, [54:14] and then uh but we will really try. And [54:18] then I want to tell you after Richard [54:19] came another few other people and there [54:21] was another guy and I don't want to say [54:23] his name who took Richard's place at the [54:26] Pentagon. And he didn't come from two [54:29] cultures, let's say, only standard [54:32] American culture. Um, [54:36] and I I said to this guy, you he [54:41] said he wanted to do X, Y, and Z. I [54:42] said, "Listen, what you're asking for, I [54:46] know they can't agree to, but they don't [54:49] h they have the word no in Turkish." And [54:52] I the same as you. This is the way it [54:55] works in that part of the world. They [54:57] they they have But it's only used for a [54:59] fact. Is this a piece of paper that I've [55:02] just pulled up? The answer is yes or no. [55:06] No one's honor is at stake by me [55:09] answering that question. But um you will [55:13] you I you want to do something that I in [55:16] no way want to do and I will say things [55:19] like God willing. [55:22] In other words, it's not my fault if it [55:24] doesn't happen. [55:25] Um and or you know let's let's study [55:30] this. [55:31] Let's see. And I remember once a [55:34] discussion where the mayor of Istanbul [55:36] who at the time he was a Kurd who spoke [55:39] only two languages, Turkish and Kurdish. [55:42] I know a little Kurdish. I knew more [55:43] then but I it's gone now but Turkish I [55:46] know. And uh and and [55:50] the question I was asked to translate [55:52] I'm a terrible translator. The question [55:55] I was asked to translate was uh [55:57] whatever. And the question and then the [56:00] answer he's this the mayor is going on [56:02] and on and on. I know from the way he's [56:06] talking the answer is no. But you can't [56:08] say that. The best you could say is y in [56:10] Turkish which means it's non-existent. [56:13] Hay is the real word for no. But you you [56:16] you don't want to insult anybody. [56:19] And and I he and so I'm g you know [56:22] Richard Pearl's asking what is he [56:24] saying? I said Richard he's saying no [56:27] but you he it's it's impolite to say [56:29] that in in one word. Please if I could [56:33] learn this. I didn't grow up with this. [56:35] I'm a nice American Jew. We're five [56:38] generations in the United States. Um uh [56:41] I grew up with no language, nothing else [56:43] but English. Um, but I was able because [56:47] I grew up in two cultures, [56:50] meaning as [snorts] a Jew and as a [56:53] regular American, [56:55] uh, I knew from the time I was there [56:57] things that we did at home that we [56:59] didn't do outside and vice versa. And [57:02] when I described this to one of Richard [57:04] Pearl's successors at the Pentagon [57:08] and I described that um you know that we [57:13] we're very in Jewish culture a father [57:15] will kiss his children [57:18] and I was explaining and this guy was [57:21] like getting uptight. Today I know it's [57:22] different but back then they were much [57:25] more formal. [57:27] This is culture. It's not right and [57:29] wrong. It's right and wrong in the [57:31] cultures that whoever is part of does. [57:34] It's like me doing this or that I was [57:36] saying before, you're right away [57:37] suspicious if someone grabs you there. [57:40] Why? It's not that it's true or not [57:42] true. It's in our culture, it means [57:45] something. Or when men are kissing each [57:47] other in that culture, it does not mean [57:51] that the next thing they're about to do [57:53] is get in bed together. It doesn't mean [57:56] that. But to us in the culture we come [57:58] from it it don't work that way. It's not [58:02] done in America. [58:04] >> And I remember at the Pentagon that I [58:07] watched um we are invariably as as as a [58:12] Jew. We will will bend in and with a big [58:15] smile on our face shake hand. I remember [58:17] a marine colonel I was very friendly [58:18] with. He was away and I he comes back [58:21] from a trip and I shake his hand and and [58:23] I'm you know and he is like cold. I I he [58:27] was a friend nothing more and I didn't [58:28] Yeah. But he was concerned I could see [58:31] it in his face. The cultures a great [58:34] German philosopher at the turn of the [58:36] 1900s 1800s 1900s from Lanca if I have [58:41] the dates correct said cultures clash. [58:43] They do not communicate. My job is just [58:46] to try to make sure that guys on our [58:49] side get it. The Israelis are much [58:52] better at this than the Americans. And [58:55] it's because for them it is existential. [58:58] For Americans, [59:00] you know, so we lose, [59:03] you know, there's so many kind. We'll [59:05] figure it out, but we'll still survive [59:07] tomorrow. The Israelis wonder, will [59:08] they? They're a one bomb country. As one [59:11] of the past presidents, Ir said, one [59:13] atom bomb. [59:15] You know, it's a tiny place. And you [59:17] know, Harold, [59:18] >> that's it. [59:19] >> I'm sorry. I'm going on but this you're [59:21] not [59:22] >> good Harold we have to we have to wrap [59:24] up soon but I just want to say that you [59:26] know based on everything you're saying [59:28] it seems to me [snorts] that bombing [59:31] this or that military installation or or [59:34] even infrastructure or bridges is not [59:37] the way to bring down the regime. And [59:38] the way to bring down the regime would [59:40] be to make them look weak in the eyes of [59:43] their people and do things to undermine [59:47] how the people perceive them. You know, [59:49] and you know, I know it might seem like [59:51] a trivial thing, but I think that one [59:54] thing that they should do that the [59:55] Americans should do, and it would be it [59:58] would be easy to do, it wouldn't cost [59:59] them a dime, and it wouldn't cost a [60:01] single soldier. It wouldn't even cost a [60:02] a missile, is to make a public demand [60:06] that they see signs of life and [60:08] functionality from Moshaba. And if not, [60:11] there will be no negotiation whatsoever [60:13] with anyone, even an intermediary. [60:15] Because if you're telling me, if you, [60:17] the Iranians, are telling me that this [60:19] guy that every decision has to be signed [60:21] off by this one person, [60:24] and I've never seen him, I've never even [60:26] seen a video of him talking. I don't And [60:29] we have no we have no verifiable [60:31] evidence that he's alive. Show me that [60:33] he's alive. And the reason I suggest [60:35] this is not because they will, cuz they [60:36] can't. Uh, [snorts] and it's that if if [60:40] this public if this challenge was made [60:43] publicly, [60:44] hear me out. If this challenge was made [60:46] publicly, [60:48] the Iranian people if it if it kind of [60:51] if it became obvious that Mushtabba is [60:54] dead or incapacitated, [60:57] that could destabilize the regime in a [60:59] way that all of these bombings couldn't. [61:01] Am I wrong? [61:04] I want to give you three answers here [61:07] and I'm sorry each of them are right [61:11] [laughter] [61:11] if the go Yeah. Sometimes that's the [61:14] case and sometimes they're opposed to [61:16] each other. [61:17] >> Well, it's it's very it's very rabbitic. [61:19] Three right answers. [laughter] [61:22] >> Okay, let's take the policy that they're [61:25] doing now and cutting the bridges and [61:28] all that. what they are doing that is [61:30] the the [61:32] I don't know who's giving the things but [61:34] the there it is smart by because it is [61:38] cutting off the money uh that the [61:41] [clears throat] Iranian government is [61:43] they're making it an island if you wish [61:46] that they will have no access to and [61:48] they're going to have to they're in [61:49] order to it it almost separates that [61:51] section of the country and that's what [61:54] they're going after that is a good thing [61:56] but if I were to say, "Okay, that's one [62:00] thing you're doing and I think you [62:02] should do, but there's another thing you [62:04] should do." Um, we don't have a lot of [62:07] time here. We have midterms. We have god [62:09] knows what else. [62:11] And, um, the answer is you help the [62:16] Iranian, the revolutionary guards [62:20] um, have fun together and knock each [62:23] other off. And we can. And once the [62:27] regime, [62:29] the the people who are oppressing the [62:31] people, people hate them, but you can't [62:33] tell someone who's got a gun at your [62:34] face and killed 40,000 50,000 people. [62:37] You that's how they stay in power. Now, [62:40] if you you've got to have to take away [62:43] power from them. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm [62:46] not a military guy. I'm a culture guy. [62:50] But I think we can you go for the top [62:53] while you're doing the the thing. One of [62:55] them it's it's a like it's a a cocktail [62:58] of drugs you're taking to get some [63:00] disease to to it a little it's you do [63:04] the the the cutting off of the um of [63:07] that part of the country where the oil [63:10] is exported and everything you vandas [63:14] um that whole area which is right [63:17] outside the straits um you do right [63:21] really at the top of the street what you [63:23] do is do all these things together but [63:27] you don't talk [63:31] nicely about the these people have got [63:33] to go. I am not worried about well oh we [63:35] want to know what comes afterwards the [63:38] Iranian people this is my experience and [63:40] I remember I haven't been there since [63:41] the revolution [63:44] and um but it's culture culture doesn't [63:47] change all that fast they [snorts] [63:49] had a very respectable passport that is [63:53] under the sha Iranians travel they could [63:56] go anywhere no problems [63:59] watch any Iranian it's you know it's [64:01] been for years already. And if come [64:04] someone comes with an Iranian passport, [64:06] what they go through at airports and on [64:07] airplanes, unbelievable. And some of [64:09] them are very kind and decent people. [64:11] They don't deserve it. [64:14] All I'm saying is they want nothing more [64:18] than to be respected [64:21] to and that's the I means let them do [64:24] internally whatever they want to be [64:26] respected and that this regime should be [64:31] gone. They know how their system works. [64:34] They are the ones who should decide how [64:36] it will work. They'll know how to make [64:38] it work. They've been doing this for 20 [64:41] 20 2600 years. [64:44] And well, the most they want to be part [64:46] of the world. Um they and and remember [64:49] Iranians ex I'm trying to you can't see [64:52] but my hands are way way they exaggerate [64:54] about everything. [64:56] >> And what they I bought a watermelon six [65:00] foot wide. Oh, everybody knows you're [65:03] lying, but that's just that's the [65:04] culture. All they want is to be part of [65:08] the world. They and they they hear from [65:11] their parents and grandparents [65:14] um what life was like under the sha and [65:17] they know that um you the let's say the [65:22] literacy rate was about 16% when the sha [65:26] took power. the the father you know of [65:29] the present young guy six in Persian is [65:32] a very hard language to write to speak [65:35] is not a problem it has to do with the [65:38] influences the words are written in ways [65:41] we have the word daughter in English is [65:43] a gh [65:45] so why is it there but Persian has tons [65:47] of problems with what letters do you [65:49] write the right thing that by the end of [65:52] the sha's rule it was over 90% of the [65:54] people even in the villages [65:56] knew how to read and write. You had [65:58] people whose parents couldn't read and [66:00] lot right who were getting MAS in [66:02] universities. [66:04] Um um they know it and remember Iranians [66:08] are exaggerated. So there was so much [66:09] better on the song and that is one of [66:11] the reasons that so many are yelling and [66:14] they they were said the the res is [66:18] coming back. The son they know what his [66:20] father what's the only person everybody [66:22] knows. I'm not pro or anti. I know him. [66:25] I think he's a very nice guy and I like [66:28] the the way he's been talking in the [66:30] last year or two in public. Anyway, um I [66:34] don't know if he's the answer, but he [66:35] doesn't even say he's the answer. He [66:37] said, "Let me just try to help get [66:39] together a group of people um and uh who [66:44] from different walks of life and instead [66:47] of calling it democracy, it's inclusive. [66:50] You you're an Iranian, you belong and [66:53] you have elders and you have this and [66:55] your family and everybody belongs. I [66:58] don't care what you are. That's how Iran [67:01] work. That's how it can in the future. [67:04] And then with the amount of wealth that [67:06] that country has. Wow. [67:10] >> Look out. [67:10] >> And they love America and they love [67:13] Isra. Why? Because the regime hates them [67:14] and they hate the regime. [67:16] >> All right. Thank you. That was great. [67:18] This has been this has been uh [67:20] incredible. So harold-road.com [67:22] [clears throat] [67:25] that's where you can find uh some of his [67:27] articles, books, all of that. Uh [67:29] anywhere else that people can stay [67:30] connected with you, Harold. [67:32] >> Um that's the best uh that's really the [67:35] best way to do it. I do a lot of [67:37] podcasts and and things like this. I [67:39] love it because [snorts] I the way I [67:42] talk I mean I'm a downtoear guy. I know [67:45] I have a tie on. I do have a bathing [67:47] suit on though. [67:48] >> [laughter] [67:50] >> No, but serious seriously, I'm Look, um, [67:55] road is spelled like the State Road [67:57] Island. R H O D E herald-road.com. [68:02] Go there. It's all free. Whatever you [68:04] see there, download it. There's going to [68:06] be a lot more things with time. And [68:08] there are all the articles. Everything I [68:11] have is how to understand how they [68:14] think. And I hope that will help the [68:18] let's say the next generation or people [68:20] who are in government now. I hope it'll [68:22] help them dealing with others. [68:25] >> Amen. [68:25] >> Love it. It's been a it's been a real [68:27] pleasure. [68:28] >> And thank you all for listening to [68:30] today's episode. If you enjoyed this [68:32] episode, please like, rate, and share [68:34] this podcast. Subscribe on Patreon. Stop [68:36] on over on YouTube and check us out as [68:39] we love to connect with more and more of [68:40] our shoulder-to-shoulder family. And [68:42] we'll see you on our next
