Transcript [00:00] What does that revised security [00:02] structure look like as you see it, sir? [00:05] And how do we get there from here? [00:06] >> When the dust settles on all of this, I [00:08] think the big loser is the Chinese [00:09] Communist Party. And that the security [00:11] archite architecture of the Middle East [00:13] is going to be really governed by a [00:15] combination of the Israelis and the [00:17] Amiradis and whoever else is in their [00:20] alliance structure. But I think that [00:22] we're really looking at Israel being a [00:23] regional superpower that is working in [00:26] tandem with the United States. And we're [00:28] already seeing the first signs of that [00:29] in this war. [00:30] >> Thanks to the extraordinary [00:33] collaboration between President Donald [00:35] J. Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu, the [00:38] prime minister of Israel, they have [00:41] taken very extraordinary, very [00:44] courageous and very much needed action [00:47] to destroy the Iranian regime of Ayatah [00:52] Hami. He is now no longer with us. [00:56] Praise be to God. [00:58] Neither are the top echelon of his [01:02] cabinets, his uh his councils, his [01:06] security apparatus. And we will be [01:09] exploring in the course of this full [01:11] hour with two of our foremost experts on [01:14] these matters, the implications of all [01:17] of this, the state of play, if you will. [01:21] What comes next as is now being [01:24] endlessly discussed and what [01:29] will be I think needed now of us to [01:33] assure that the peace that is in [01:35] prospect is secured and the people of [01:39] Iran enjoy the liberation to which they [01:42] have now been given an opportunity to u [01:47] experience at long last. We're going to [01:50] speak with Dr. David Wormser, [01:53] a man whose experience and insights [01:56] informed by decades of service to our [02:00] country both as a naval intelligence [02:02] officer and in the highest echelons of [02:04] the State Department, the National [02:06] Security Council and the Office of the [02:08] Vice President um is uh hugely um I [02:14] think [02:16] validating of what has just happened. [02:18] and we're going to talk with him about [02:19] it. He has been calling for this for [02:22] decades. Um we're very pleased that he's [02:25] now u doing so from the vantage point of [02:27] uh a director of M East program at uh [02:31] the center for security policy. He's [02:33] going to be joined for this hour by [02:35] Rabbi Pesak Wiki, another very faithful [02:38] contributor to this program. I think one [02:41] of the pre-minent um authorities on [02:43] Middle East affairs from the vantage [02:46] point of Israel, his adopted homeland. [02:48] He is um the executive director of a [02:52] terrific organization. I think of it as [02:54] one of the preeminent information [02:56] warfare operations in the west. Israel [03:00] 365 action. You can follow um his video [03:04] products at Israel 365 [03:07] videos, I think it is. We'll talk more [03:09] about him uh and those outputs as well [03:12] in the course of this program. He's a [03:14] columnist for the Jerusalem Post. He is [03:16] also um a podcaster uh co-host of [03:20] Shouldertoshoulder. Gentlemen, thank you [03:22] for finding time. You know, I'm reminded [03:25] of a moment uh I believe after the [03:29] battle of Yorktown [03:32] when the British army surrendered to [03:35] that of the combined forces of General [03:38] George Washington, the American army and [03:41] the British, excuse me, the French um [03:44] navy that had played an instrumental [03:46] role in defeating the British on that [03:49] battlefield. [03:51] The song that was played, as I recall, [03:54] was something called The World Turned [03:56] Upside Down. And I have a feeling that [03:59] this momentous time in which we now find [04:03] ourselves is such [04:07] uh an event again um with a tremendous [04:11] victory in prospect. Now, um through the [04:15] combined arms once again of the American [04:18] military and in this case the [04:22] extraordinary contributions of the [04:24] Israel Defense Forces and their [04:26] intelligence services and of course [04:29] their government under Prime Minister [04:31] Netanyahu. Um we're going to be taking [04:34] stock of this for quite some time. So [04:36] this is early days. There's a lot that [04:38] is going to be known in the next hours [04:42] even. But um I do want to get an instant [04:46] assessment from you all the snapshot at [04:48] the moment. Let's start with you Rabbi [04:50] if we may. Um from the Israeli [04:52] perspective u what has gone down in just [04:57] the past day or so and um how was it [05:00] accomplished sir? [05:02] >> Well let me start on the personal level [05:04] because it's the most immediate and it's [05:06] just happened in the last couple of [05:07] hours. I live in the town of Bamesh [05:10] about a 30inut drive outside Jerusalem [05:12] biblically speaking right near where [05:14] David killed Goliath in the Alah Valley [05:17] that region of the country uh it kind of [05:19] serves at this point as a commuter town [05:22] between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. We had a [05:24] direct impact hit from a missile a few [05:27] hours ago. It was about a 15-minute walk [05:30] from my house. We were in our bomb [05:31] shelter in our safe room at home and we [05:33] heard the impact. Uh and unfortunately [05:36] it's it's a mass casualty event at this [05:39] point. The last report I saw they uh [05:41] they've they had discovered 10 who were [05:43] deceased, but they're still searching [05:44] through the rubble. Uh and there are [05:46] many who were wounded. So there there [05:49] have been casualties and this was not [05:51] the first casualties uh since Iran [05:53] started uh started firing missiles at [05:56] Israel yesterday. Although this was the [05:58] certainly the largest casualty event [06:00] that took place. So please everyone in [06:03] the audience you know please pray for [06:04] the town of Bamesh and please pray for [06:07] the wounded and for the families uh who [06:09] are suffering at this time. Uh that said [06:12] uh Israel has uh has put out a statement [06:14] that they have destroyed uh [06:17] approximately half of Iran's ballistic [06:19] missile uh stores uh and their their [06:22] capabilities. uh in the first literally [06:25] in the first minute of these attacks, [06:29] they uh you know all of those top [06:32] echelon leaders that you talked about, [06:33] almost all of them were killed literally [06:35] in the first minute in the first 30 [06:37] seconds of this entire of this entire uh [06:41] event when Israel launched the [06:43] preemptive attacks yesterday. Uh you [06:45] know, a massive decapitation event. Uh [06:48] you know, we're almost getting used to [06:50] these these decapitation events. We had [06:52] uh we had one like this in the at right [06:55] at the beginning of the 12-day war and [06:57] of course there was the famous beeper [06:58] and walkie-talkie attacks onah uh [07:01] Israel's approach to these evil regimes [07:04] of taking out the leadership [07:06] right at the early get-go. It's not just [07:08] because you want to get rid of bad guys. [07:11] It also cripples the command structure [07:14] and uh and it and it just slows [07:16] everything down on the other side. it [07:18] turn it puts them into a state of of [07:20] chaos and they have all kinds of [07:21] internal decisions they need to make [07:23] before they can get their you know [07:24] before they can get their pants on [07:26] because of these decapitation strikes. [07:28] So they're extremely uh strategic. [07:30] They're not just about getting you know [07:33] getting these bad actors uh you know to [07:35] meet their 72 virgins or whatever it is [07:38] that awaits them. Um so the so the state [07:42] of play also the Israelis also announced [07:43] in the same the announce in the same [07:45] announcement when they said that they [07:46] destroyed half of the ballistic missiles [07:47] they also announced that they are very [07:49] close to full air dominance air [07:52] superiority air freedom I mean they're [07:53] they're operating with a lot of air [07:55] freedom uh and we might remember that in [07:58] the 12-day war it took Israel a couple [08:00] of days to open up freedom of operation [08:02] over Iran but even then it was mostly [08:04] from central Iran to the west they [08:06] didn't really do much in the east in the [08:08] 12-day for as far as I know. Um but now [08:11] it looks like the Americans and Israelis [08:12] are on the verge of if not already [08:14] accomplished full air superiority. Now [08:16] when that happens, it's a hu it's a [08:18] major game changer because it basically [08:20] means that the Israelis can hover their [08:22] drones and just you know it'll be like [08:25] shooting fish in a barrel and they're [08:26] starting to go after regime targets [08:28] today. Whereas yesterday they were [08:30] focused more on on air defenses and [08:33] missile launch sites. Today they have [08:35] they have started hitting actual regime [08:38] targets, government targets in Thran. Uh [08:41] and that's accelerating uh hundreds of [08:43] targets being hit, constant air sordies. [08:45] I live in the flight path near one of [08:48] the largest uh air force bases in [08:50] Israel. So we're constantly we know when [08:52] there's action because the because the [08:54] jets are flying back and forth overhead [08:55] and it's been very very busy. Um so that [08:59] and look the situation is dynamic. It's [09:01] changing every second. Lots of prayer. [09:03] Uh and there's also a sense of there's a [09:06] sense of the auspicious timing of this. [09:08] And I don't a lot of your audience may [09:10] not be familiar. The Israel the Jewish [09:13] festival of Purim which celebrates the [09:15] victory uh of the salvation from a [09:19] genocidal decree made by the Persian [09:22] regime in uh in the book of Esther. That [09:26] festival that we celebrate every year is [09:28] uh begins tomorrow night. And [09:31] >> hold the thought, Rabbi. We're coming [09:32] right back to you on Purim Eve and what [09:36] comes next. Welcome back. We are joined [09:39] again and for this full hour, I'm [09:41] thrilled to say with Rabbi Pesquiliki of [09:44] Israel and Dr. David Wormser of the [09:46] United States. um two of the brightest [09:49] minds that we have certainly um on our [09:52] side and they have been both of them [09:56] individually and I think uh in tandem [10:00] calling for the action that's just been [10:03] taken by the governments of Israel and [10:05] the United States um in a truly [10:08] extraordinary uh military operation. And [10:11] I have to say, gentlemen, I have to say, [10:13] gentlemen, that um every time these [10:16] things play out, uh one of the um the [10:20] facts that I am just, uh stupified by [10:24] truly is the success of the operation in [10:28] maintaining what is uh [10:32] really tremendously difficult, namely [10:34] the secretiveness of it. Um the idea, as [10:38] you said, Rabbi, a moment ago, that um [10:41] in the opening seconds of this war, [10:45] Israel was putting bombs on the [10:48] leadership of the Iranian regime [10:51] gathered incredibly together. Um and uh [10:55] all of this was done obviously with [10:58] complete surprise. Um to what do we [11:00] attribute all of this? It's just amazing [11:02] to me. [11:04] Well, Israeli intelligence penetration [11:06] into the Iranian regime is incredible. [11:10] It's probably even better than their [11:11] penetration into Kamas, who's on their [11:13] who's in their backyard in Gaza. It's [11:16] incredible what the Israelis have done. [11:17] Uh there was a there's a famous clip of [11:20] the former president Ahmed Jad in an [11:23] interview revealing that they that they [11:26] had set up a special unit to spy on the [11:29] Israelis to spy on the Mossad only to [11:32] discover that the person that they had [11:33] appointed to lead the unit was a Mossad [11:35] agent. I mean the Israeli penetration [11:38] there is incredible. Look, when Kamaya's [11:40] body was the way the verification came [11:44] to Israel that Hami was killed was that [11:47] someone who was there [11:50] with the body sent film sent a clip of [11:53] it to Prime Minister Netanyahu. Just [11:56] think about that. Uh I mean where the [11:58] Israelis are. So Israeli the Israeli [12:01] intelligence capabilities are are [12:03] outstanding. They also have uh [12:04] operatives on the ground. We know that [12:06] they did in the 12-day war as well. In [12:08] the 12-day war, in the opening minutes, [12:09] a lot of the decapitation that took [12:11] place then of the military brass did not [12:14] happen from air strikes flown from [12:16] Israel. It happened from drones that [12:17] were launched within Iran. So yeah, I [12:20] mean when you when you ask about how [12:21] this happened and of course you know I [12:24] think you know if we pull back the [12:26] camera and we think about everything [12:27] we've seen over the last you know year [12:29] or two you know Venezuela and and [12:32] Midnight Hammer and this I I think [12:34] there's a realization that we all need [12:36] to come to which is that it's it seems [12:39] likely that the military superiority [12:42] that the United States and and by [12:45] extension Israel have over the bad guys [12:50] may be far far greater than we even [12:53] thought it was. And you know because [12:55] this kind of a this kind of asymmetry in [12:59] capabilities is not even what we all [13:01] thought we had. And and and maybe that [13:04] that means that we need to [13:07] it should affect the calculations that [13:09] we make about what is strategically [13:11] wise. What are the cost benefits of [13:13] various actions? I'm not trying to be a [13:15] wararmonger here, but I'm saying that [13:17] there's it opens up some cap, you know, [13:19] some some interesting possibilities. I [13:21] want to comment on the on the regime [13:22] change issue. We're all, I think, [13:24] prematurely celebrating the fall of this [13:27] regime. Uh I don't know if you wanted to [13:29] get to that topic soon, but but it's not [13:32] it it as far as I'm concerned, we don't [13:35] know when President Trump is going to [13:37] suddenly walk up to the mics and say, [13:38] "We've done our job. We've accomplished [13:39] what we wanted to accomplish. We're [13:41] done." And walk away. [13:44] war is over and we don't know if there's [13:45] going to be American casualties in one [13:47] of these sites and what that will do [13:49] politically to uh to President Trump and [13:52] the people around him. And I've been, [13:54] you know, I said on your show and I've [13:56] been saying everywhere for weeks, let's [13:58] remember, you cannot bomb the regime out [14:00] of existence. It requires the people to [14:02] rise up. And that is an ingredient that [14:05] that as much as we're hoping for it and [14:07] expecting it and the conditions are [14:08] being laid for to open the door for them [14:11] to do it, it still needs to happen. The [14:15] IRGC is not a small force. It's a if you [14:19] add up the families of the people, we're [14:20] talking about a ruling class uh of [14:23] probably around half a million people. [14:26] Uh, and until we see mass defections, [14:28] until we see that the crumbling of of of [14:32] that apparatus, it's not necessarily a [14:35] done deal that this regime is going to [14:36] fall. That said, [14:38] it's certainly going to even if it [14:40] doesn't fall, it's going to come out so [14:42] crippled and weak uh that it could fall, [14:45] you know, at some point in the near [14:46] future. But I I just don't want to be [14:48] too uh I don't want to be celebrating [14:50] prematurely [14:52] there. [14:53] >> It's a good point. David worms, your [14:54] thoughts on that problem, but also, you [14:57] know, your sense of where the regime [14:59] actually is at the moment. [15:01] >> Yeah, look, I mean, Peso's absolutely [15:03] right. It ain't over till it till it's [15:05] over. Uh we have to remember that the [15:08] Battle of the Bulge in World War II was [15:10] a bloody bad, very dangerous event. Uh [15:14] even though it looked already at that [15:15] point that the Nazis were in terminal [15:17] decline, [15:18] we can't let that happen. The Iranians [15:20] are the masters of leveraging a [15:23] situation of weakness and defeat into [15:25] victory. Uh so we we have to uh we have [15:29] to play this all the way through. All [15:31] the way through. And that that means uh [15:33] also to avoid any temptation to end it [15:36] by some IRGC official that steps forward [15:41] uh and is with blood dripping from his [15:43] hands uh say, "Listen, I'll help you. uh [15:46] we should take his help but still go [15:48] right beyond him to to continue the [15:51] prosecution of the war against the [15:53] regime. Uh Himmler at the end of the war [15:56] tried to barter a number of Jews to save [15:59] his skin and create a rump Nazi [16:02] government. I can only imagine what the [16:04] world would be like had we allowed a [16:06] rump Nazi government to survive in [16:08] Germany. Can't allow this to happen [16:10] here. Uh they will kill as many Iranians [16:14] as they need to to stay in power. So [16:16] that that also we there has to be an [16:19] operational plan and I assume the [16:21] Israelis are the ones on who are [16:23] probably the point men on this on the [16:25] ground in Iran with the opposition to [16:28] coordinate is uh opposition activity [16:33] with the American Israeli air power so [16:36] that when there is a gathering the air [16:39] power comes in real time to help and [16:42] things like that. So, I'd imagine [16:44] there's a plan and I think we're going [16:45] to see it the next four or five days, [16:47] but I would take Pesak's warning to to [16:50] the bank. Uh, it ain't over till it's [16:53] >> Yeah, I think that's important to [16:55] stipulate. Um, I guess the question that [16:58] arises is [17:01] is there an opposition to work with at [17:04] this point? Is it is it in any way [17:06] organized? Is it um you know [17:09] demonstrabably [17:11] um enjoying support from the people of [17:15] Iran? I mean this goes to that question [17:17] of what comes next obviously but can you [17:20] just give us uh your respective [17:22] assessments of where things stand with [17:25] you know are there people we can be [17:27] working with right now? [17:29] >> I think there are I mean first we have [17:32] the symbi symbol of the Shaw. I I I [17:35] emphasize I don't believe the sha is an [17:38] operational military leader. Uh and and [17:43] also he's in exile and as much as he [17:45] understands Iran, as much as his blood [17:47] flows Persian, uh he still has been out [17:50] of the country for a long time. So he [17:52] doesn't have that that deep uh sixth [17:55] sense as to how things operate on the [17:57] ground there. This will have to come [17:59] from inside Iran. But that said, he's a [18:01] very important symbolic figure of unity [18:04] and a rallying point for the Iranian [18:06] people, and it's exactly what we've been [18:08] seeing. So, we should not turn away from [18:10] the Shaw, but we should think very [18:12] clearly how to how to help how to help [18:15] him succeed uh and and and being that [18:18] symbol, which which is necessary. That [18:21] comes to the next issue, which is who's [18:23] on the ground. We don't know. Uh and and [18:26] it's good we don't know because if we [18:28] knew the Iranian regime would have known [18:30] and they would have killed them. But [18:31] there clearly is a rising organic [18:34] leadership that probably has far more uh [18:37] interaction and and strategic uh [18:40] organization than we think. Probably the [18:44] Israelis have been working very closely [18:46] for for months if not years [18:49] to help that. The United States clearly [18:52] has joined in and is trying to help in [18:54] whatever assets it can bring to bear. Uh [18:57] human intelligence is big, but there's [18:59] also a lot of technical stuff and the [19:00] United States has apparently flowed a [19:02] lot of technical stuff in. So I think [19:04] there's a lot more organization of the [19:07] opposition on the ground than we think. [19:09] And [19:10] >> Rabbi, your thoughts on that? [19:12] >> The CIA put out a an online booklet, an [19:15] online booklet in Persian that they [19:17] disseminated uh through uh through [19:20] Telegram and through other social media [19:22] channels uh to the to the Iranian [19:25] people, instructing them with all kinds [19:27] of tips about how to get around the [19:29] censorship and how to get around the [19:31] internet blocking and how to make [19:33] contact with the CIA and encouraging [19:35] them to do so. They released that last [19:36] week. that Mossad has been doing similar [19:39] things, uh, reaching out in Persian to [19:41] the Iranian people and giving them all [19:43] kinds of points of contact for them to [19:45] be in touch with them. And this has been [19:46] going on for a while. And I'm assuming [19:49] that there's been uh that that has that [19:52] has yielded some fruit that as as David [19:54] said, it's better that we don't know [19:56] about it because if we know about it, [19:57] then the Iranian regime knows about it. [19:59] I think the big litmus test that we [20:01] should be looking for downrange is when [20:03] the Iranian people take to the streets [20:04] again. Right now, they're not. They're [20:06] deliberately not. They're staying [20:08] indoors and they've been told to do so [20:10] by by the Israelis by by Resa Palvi. [20:14] They've been told this is not the time [20:15] to come out into the streets yet. Let [20:16] the Americans and Israelis do their job. [20:18] But at some point soon they will flow [20:21] into the streets. And then the big [20:23] litmus test will be how does the [20:25] besiege, how does the IRGC, how do those [20:28] people behave? How does the personnel [20:30] behave in those moments? and uh and [20:32] that's when I think we're going to [20:34] actually know where this is headed. [20:36] >> Um we're going to take a break on that [20:38] point. I I want to discuss with both of [20:41] you the um idea that um some of these [20:46] folks can enjoy immunity from [20:49] prosecution, um amnesty, however you [20:52] want to describe it, if they, you know, [20:56] come over to the the the light side, if [20:59] you would, the the good guys side. um [21:03] how that is likely to play out and how [21:06] the opposition is likely to go down in [21:10] this regard. Um we'll be right back with [21:13] both Pessek Wiki and David Worms. We're [21:16] back and we are continuing this [21:17] extraordinarily timely conversation [21:19] about where things stand in Iran after [21:23] the unbelievably impressive military [21:27] action of our forces here in the United [21:30] States as well as those of Israel um [21:34] taking down if not quite yet taking out [21:38] the regime in Iran. And what comes next [21:42] folks? we're talking about who's in a [21:45] position to do something to answer that [21:49] question. And uh David, there's um an [21:52] important facet to what's been going on [21:54] here, which is that uh the offer of uh I [22:00] guess immunity from prosecution u or an [22:04] amnesty of sorts has been offered to [22:07] members of the security apparatus of the [22:10] regime to, you know, lay down their arms [22:13] and uh and you know, come over to our [22:17] side, if you will. uh collaborate [22:20] obviously in helping to roll up what's [22:22] left of the regime. Um how is that [22:25] shaping up sir and uh what are the [22:27] implications of it if it does not [22:28] succeed? [22:29] >> Well, turn coats are welcome for the [22:32] moment. Uh because you know any help we [22:34] can get we can get and and same with the [22:36] Iranian people. But I would be very [22:38] careful with this because at the end of [22:40] the day uh first of all turn coats are [22:42] not very dependable. So you can't depend [22:44] on them afterwards if they're willing to [22:46] give us information. We'll we'll lay [22:48] down the weapons, whatever. Wonderful. [22:50] But uh I would not invest in them any [22:53] hope for post Iran Iran. I mean post [22:56] Ayatollah Iran. Uh this and and then and [22:59] secondly, the Iranian people are a [23:01] factor here. They've paid with a lot of [23:03] blood. Uh they don't want to be ruled [23:05] even by some of the lesser elements of [23:08] those who killed them. Uh now [23:10] >> would they would they be okay with even [23:12] forgiving them and allowing them to [23:15] remain not? [23:16] >> I don't know. I don't think they're [23:17] going to forgive them. If they could if [23:18] they can get their hands on them, they [23:20] will they will try them and and do do [23:22] what they will do to them. Uh that said, [23:25] you know, I would differentiate if [23:27] there's some people that we can get to [23:29] leave Iran and we can monitor because we [23:32] don't want them from abroad trying to [23:34] run insurgencies or anything like that. [23:36] Essentially, put them in a gilded cage [23:38] in Antarctica. [23:40] uh if that helps us get over the hump to [23:43] get them to leave and give up that might [23:45] be useful but I would not invest in any [23:48] of these any power or any hope for a [23:51] post Ayatollah governance these people [23:55] are dangerous they're they're criminal [23:58] uh we are still suffering today from the [24:00] consequences of the velvet nature of the [24:02] revolution at the end of the cold war uh [24:05] they transformed themselves into [24:07] mafiosis [24:09] uh we see the function of it with Putin [24:11] and others. We cannot allow this to [24:13] happen in Iran. And the Iranians will [24:15] not tolerate that uh either. So look, if [24:19] they're willing to run away, we can help [24:21] them run away. If they're willing to [24:23] give us weapons, uh their weapons and [24:25] lay them down or information to go after [24:27] them, we can help that. We can take that [24:29] and let them run away. But they need to [24:31] run away. [24:32] >> Run away out of the country. [24:34] >> Out of the country in a gilded cage. [24:37] >> Great. Um, Rabbi, your thoughts on all [24:39] of that? [24:41] >> Look, what I've been fearing since the [24:43] beginning of this is is really what [24:46] David's pointing to, which is what I've [24:47] been calling fake regime change that the [24:50] West for its own interests wants to call [24:53] regime change. Let me explain what I [24:55] mean. If I I could totally see a [24:58] scenario where in a layered bureaucracy [25:00] like like Iran, and remember, this isn't [25:02] Syria where Assad gets on a plane and [25:04] flies to Russia and the regime's over. [25:05] It doesn't work that way here. This is a [25:08] massive uh bureaucracy and we could have [25:10] second or third tier people in the [25:13] regime kind of announce themselves as [25:15] having turned and uh and and and that [25:19] they're moderates and the West has an [25:22] interest in stability and has an [25:24] interest in saying regime change has [25:26] happened and could buy what they're [25:28] selling. know e either because they're [25:30] naive or because they're choosing to be [25:32] willfully naive and say that regime [25:34] change has happened and now we're going [25:35] to work with these technocrats who know [25:37] how the system works and they're and [25:39] they're basically the same mobsters who [25:40] were running the place beforehand. [25:42] they'll be less Islamically ideological [25:45] maybe at first or maybe you know and and [25:47] I guess that could be a step up but it [25:50] really would mean that the that the [25:51] Iranian people would still be just as [25:53] oppressed uh and it would be basically [25:55] again fake regime change and that's the [25:57] kind of thing that I could see playing [25:59] to Trump's desire for a short-lived [26:02] conflict and for someone to be in charge [26:04] to bring stability similar to what we [26:06] saw in Venezuela where in the early [26:08] moments he was like you know Maduro's [26:10] number two Uh, oh, you know, let's have [26:14] this person be in charge. These are [26:15] dangerous situations. Um, now I don't [26:18] believe that the Israelis will buy that [26:20] in this case because let's remember [26:21] America's interests and Israel's [26:22] interests are not identical here. And [26:25] once the you know there's no there's no [26:28] issue of Fordo and Isvahan sites that [26:32] that you need B2 bombers to get to that [26:34] Israel can't deal with on their own when [26:36] it comes to the regime change issue. [26:38] Once once the skies are totally open and [26:40] Israel has free reign, Israel is [26:42] determined to bring down this regime one [26:43] way or the other. They've made that very [26:45] clear and it's in Israel's strategic [26:47] interest to do so. Uh so I don't know [26:52] how that's going to play, but I'm I I've [26:53] been I've been worried all along that I [26:55] and I still believe that the most likely [26:57] outcome is actually unfortunately a fake [27:00] regime change that satisfies the West. [27:04] They call it regime change and they say [27:06] the war is over and the Iranian people [27:08] are still not free. [27:10] >> Okay. So, Rabbi, um obviously [27:14] Israel gets a vote at this point in all [27:16] of that. Um would you envision in that [27:19] circumstance that uh the Israelis would [27:21] say no, I'm sorry. This is this is not [27:24] done and we can't have another 12-day [27:26] war that's you know premature. [27:28] >> That raises an interesting question. At [27:30] the end of the 12-day war where Israel [27:33] continued firing, we we all remember [27:35] when President Trump said stop, stop, [27:36] stop and imposed a ceasefire basically [27:38] while Israel was starting to attack [27:40] regime targets. That was a slightly [27:43] different scenario because because [27:45] regime change was not the stated goal of [27:46] that war. This time it is. Uh it you [27:49] know they're talking about it. You know, [27:51] President Trump was talking about it and [27:52] the Israelis are certainly talking about [27:53] it. Um so how how exactly that plays [27:58] out, I don't know. Again, another [28:00] another problem in all of this and [28:01] everything that that Dr. Worms was [28:03] saying, you know, about what will be [28:05] acceptable, what will not be acceptable, [28:07] how will this work. No one has any [28:09] intention, not the Israelis or the [28:10] Americans, of putting boots on the [28:11] ground, which means the Iranian people [28:12] are going to have to sort this out [28:13] themselves, and it's going to be for [28:15] them to decide what's acceptable and [28:17] what's not. [28:18] >> Yeah. Well, you mentioned that there are [28:19] some Israeli boots on the ground, but [28:22] this is not the kind of force [28:24] directing traffic. [28:25] >> Yeah, indeed. Um gentlemen, we have to [28:28] take one final break. When we come back, [28:29] I want to get, you know, your [28:31] perspectives on what the West, our two [28:36] partners, uh, specifically, but [28:38] hopefully the wider West must do now to [28:44] maximize [28:45] the, well, I said at the beginning, the [28:49] world turned upside down opportunities [28:51] to reboot the Middle East and the [28:54] security structures there, as well as [28:57] the prospects for a wider peace. Please, [29:00] God. We're back and we are finishing up [29:03] this extraordinary hour-long [29:05] conversation with two of uh the free [29:07] world's greatest minds on the Middle [29:10] East. Rabbi Peswiki of Israel and Dr. [29:13] David Wormser of the United States. Um [29:16] both, I'm proud to say um regular [29:19] contributors to this program for which [29:20] we are incredibly grateful. Uh Rabbi, [29:23] I'm going to come to you with this sort [29:24] of final question. Um if indeed the [29:27] world has been turned upside down here [29:30] uh and there's an opportunity [29:32] fundamentally to reboot the way business [29:36] has been done in the Middle East now for [29:38] well decades easily um rooted first and [29:44] foremost clearly in this partnership [29:46] between the United States under Donald [29:48] Trump and Israel under Benjamin [29:50] Netanyahu. [29:52] What does that revised security [29:56] structure look like as you see it, sir? [29:59] And how do we get there from here? [30:01] >> Well, [30:04] I I want to start the answer to that [30:06] with the by talking about the UAE who a [30:09] few weeks ago as the Saudis were [30:11] pivoting towards the Qataris and the [30:13] Turks and the Qataris and the Turks were [30:17] in, you know, in defense mode trying to [30:19] get the US to back off of attacking [30:21] Iran. If you look at that scenario and [30:24] uh and also their reactions to Israel's [30:26] recognition of Somali land where the [30:28] Turks and the Qataris and the Saudis [30:29] were all opposed and the UAE was on [30:31] Israel's side and the way things were [30:34] playing out [30:36] diplomatically the UAE was really [30:40] somewhat isolated within the Arab world [30:42] and they were isolating themselves. They [30:44] were they were making they were betting [30:46] on the Israelis [30:47] more than on [30:48] >> with whom they have an Abraham Accord [30:51] >> with whom they have the Abraham Accord [30:52] relation. But the other Abraham Accord [30:53] countries were kind of uh a little bit [30:55] more a little bit more cautious. The UAE [30:58] was very openly siding with the Israelis [31:00] and all of this and now it seems with [31:03] you know with the way things are going [31:05] that you know or you know when you take [31:07] a country like Jordan that has a peace [31:08] deal with Israel but was kind of talking [31:10] out of both sides of their mouth. Um, [31:12] same thing with Egypt and some of the [31:15] other actors in the region kind of, you [31:16] know, they were hedging, you know, the [31:18] Saudis famously have been hedging now [31:19] for, you know, for years, but especially [31:21] over the last 6 months or so, they've [31:22] been playing they've been playing all [31:23] sides of this. And it seems that now [31:26] just in the in the first day or two of [31:28] this, you know, the Saudis are are are [31:31] rejoining the Israel America UAE axis. [31:34] The the Turks and the Qataris are kind [31:37] of on their back foot because they're [31:38] getting attacked by the Iranians, too. [31:40] They don't really know what to do with [31:40] themselves when the dust settles. And [31:42] that that was your question. When the [31:44] dust settles on all of this, I think the [31:46] big loser is the Chinese Communist [31:47] Party. And that the security archite [31:49] architecture of the Middle East is going [31:52] to be is going to be really governed by [31:55] a combination of the Israelis and the [31:57] Amiradis and whoever else is in their [31:59] alliance structure. uh including the [32:02] Jordanians uh although they have [32:03] problems domestically with a very [32:05] radicalized population even though even [32:07] though the leadership is is quite [32:09] favorable to the west but I think that I [32:11] think that's we're looking at Israel [32:13] really being a regional superpower that [32:16] both with the with what's called the [32:18] I2U2 alliance which is India and uh and [32:21] the Emirates and Israel and the United [32:23] States and with the 3+1 which is Israel, [32:26] Cyprus, Greece and the United States [32:27] where Israel is really the the senior [32:30] player In both of those alliances in [32:32] terms of regional security, we're really [32:34] looking at Israel being again a regional [32:36] superpower that is that is working in [32:39] tandem with the United States and we're [32:41] already seeing the first signs of that [32:42] in this war. [32:44] >> Thank you, Rabbi. Very very interesting [32:47] thoughts. Um David, yours. Yeah, I just [32:50] pick up on that first of all that you're [32:51] you're laying out the pieces of a [32:53] security architecture which are [32:54] critically important and and uh and so I [32:57] agree with absolutely every word you [32:59] just said. I would put it in a in a [33:01] large in a larger ide context of ideas. [33:04] The United States, the West as a whole, [33:06] Western civilization, the continuum from [33:08] Plato to NATO so to speak, uh and the [33:11] Judeo-Christian Foundation all now face [33:15] two big threats. One is the CCP and one [33:18] is Sharia supremac uh supremacism that [33:21] is gaining an invigorated [33:24] uh uh essentially a shot of adrenaline [33:28] uh by what's happening in Syria, Turkey, [33:30] Qatar's money, etc. We face a [33:33] civilizational threat from both and both [33:36] are essentially now aligned against us. [33:39] So we need to leverage what's just [33:42] happened to set us up strategically [33:45] clearheadedly with this and going from [33:47] west to east. You have to start with [33:49] Europe. The role of Europe right now is [33:52] to save Europe. It it needs to [33:54] understand that the threat it faces from [33:57] Sharia supremacism is they're in the [34:00] 11th hour. Uh and and they they must [34:02] save their civilization. That then links [34:05] up to Greece. Greece and Israel together [34:08] need to establish a minority strategy to [34:11] save the minorities of the Levant of [34:14] Lebanon, the fertile crest in Syria, [34:16] etc., and and organize them into a [34:20] coherent strategic block to face down [34:23] this Sharia supremacist Muslim [34:24] Brotherhood enemy. Then you head over to [34:27] the Iranians. uh while not being very [34:31] faithful Shiites anymore, they still [34:33] understand the threat of Sunni Islam and [34:36] the threat that's posed by Turkey uh and [34:39] Qatar under the Muslim Brotherhood and [34:41] so forth. So they become a critical [34:43] element of this new expanded Abraham [34:46] Accords really Cyrus Accords. But then I [34:49] think you go to Asia and I would [34:51] introduce the concept of the League of [34:52] Rising ancients. Uh you have Iran is you [34:58] you have three countries that are that [35:00] are ancient are free and are embracing [35:05] modernity. Israel, Japan. That's very [35:09] that that's very obvious. But then [35:10] India, we forget India. There's a fourth [35:13] seat at the table that's empty, which is [35:15] Iran. This is a country that's very [35:17] capable of entering modernity. It's a [35:20] country which intellectually could enter [35:22] the free world. If it does, then you [35:26] essentially take the anchor of the Greek [35:29] Israeli minority strategy, Abraham [35:32] Accord strategy, and you extend it into [35:35] Asia and you've created essentially a [35:38] band of countries dividing the world in [35:40] half, serving the Western Alliance as a [35:44] whole, and jointly challenging both the [35:48] CCP and Sharia supremacism and the [35:50] Muslim Brotherhood. So I think that's [35:52] where this war ultimately can lead us if [35:55] we play this right. [35:56] >> If we play this right and it it starts [35:58] with don't prematurely ending it of [36:01] course on a face false regime change. I [36:05] just also add into the mix gentlemen [36:07] energy. One of the things that is truly [36:10] turned upside down between the [36:12] Venezuelan [36:13] transformation as such as it is as well [36:16] as the possible one with Iran is [36:19] creating an incredible leverage on the [36:22] bad guys in this uh scenario uh the [36:25] Chinese most especially if that card is [36:29] played well and I trust that we will see [36:31] President Donald J. Trump doing just [36:33] that. Now, God bless you, gentlemen, and [36:35] the fulfillment of so many of the things [36:37] we've hoped for for so long. Please God, [36:41] deliver this final end state we seek. [36:43] Now, we will talk with the rest of you [36:46] soon, I hope. Until then, go forth and [36:48] multiply.
