Transcript [00:00] So, Kemi Badenoch, I think Badenoch, I [00:03] think that's how you pronounce her name. [00:04] She is the leader of the Conservative [00:06] Party in the UK. [00:09] And uh the more I see of her, the more I [00:10] like her. She was on Piers Morgan the [00:13] other day and [00:15] he raised a number of issues that I [00:17] found worth talking about. They talked a [00:19] little bit about free speech. In this [00:22] clip that I'm going to show you, they [00:23] talk a little bit about Israel. [00:25] And we're going to talk about that. And [00:27] then they talk about her personal faith, [00:29] and that's where [00:31] I thought there was something very much [00:32] worth touching on. So, let's just go [00:34] through this clip. I'll stop it a couple [00:36] times and uh [00:38] yeah, she's interesting. I like her a [00:39] lot. Let's take a look. [00:44] >> I believe in free speech, but I am [00:46] concerned about the free speech of [00:48] people in this country. I don't think [00:50] that we are giving international rights [00:52] for people to come to our country to [00:54] exercise their free speech. [00:55] >> jailing people, for example, for [00:57] Facebook posts and so on. Do you agree [00:59] with that? [00:59] >> So, people should not be, in my view, [01:01] jailed for Facebook posts unless they [01:03] are breaking the law very clearly. Um I [01:06] am someone who believes in free speech, [01:08] but free speech has its limits. You [01:10] can't defame people. You can't incite [01:12] violence or hatred. But I have also been [01:14] very vocal about what is happening to [01:16] British Jews in our country. There's [01:18] clearly been a climate of intimidation [01:21] uh and incitement to violence happening [01:22] with a lot of those protests. I think [01:24] that's the sort of place where you draw [01:25] the line. But yes, have free speech, but [01:27] you don't use it to hurt other people. [01:29] Your right stop when someone else's [01:31] rights uh begin. Uh so, if they if you [01:33] know when I'm Prime Minister, I want to [01:35] be able to stop bad people from coming [01:37] to our country. I don't know the reasons [01:39] that Labour gives to the people that it [01:40] does stop, but that right to stop uh [01:43] people who are not conducive to the [01:44] public good from coming to the country, [01:46] I think is an important one for a [01:48] government to exercise. [01:49] >> com- [01:51] >> Okay. [01:52] Uh what she's talking about here, I made [01:54] a video about this a few days ago, that [01:56] the Home Office, which is like the [01:59] interior ministry, is what we call it [02:00] here in Israel, the Home Office in the [02:03] UK prevented Shank Weager [02:05] and his nephew Hassan who are [02:07] virulently anti-Israel. Hassan Piker's [02:11] even worse than Shank in the stuff that [02:12] he says, but they're they're really [02:13] anti-Israel and [02:15] and in a in a very harsh way, [02:18] I would call them, you know, [02:20] anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic, whatever term [02:22] you want to use. I don't like throwing [02:23] that around. [02:24] But for whatever reason, they were [02:26] prevented from entering the UK and they [02:28] made a huge stink about it about how [02:29] Israel's preventing them from entering [02:31] the UK. Never mind the fact that a whole [02:32] bunch of right-wing and even numerous [02:35] pro-Israel [02:36] uh [02:37] prominent figures were prevented from [02:40] entering the UK just a couple weeks [02:41] before that [02:43] on the same grounds that it would not be [02:45] conducive to the public good. [02:47] She makes a very important point that we [02:48] always have to remember. People always [02:50] bring up the issue of free speech if [02:51] they're getting silenced like like their [02:53] voice is getting shut down in media or [02:55] in this case that they're not being [02:56] allowed into a certain country. You [02:58] don't have an inalienable right to go [02:59] into any country you want. [03:01] That's not your right. Freedom of speech [03:03] means that you cannot police what people [03:05] say in your country. But if you don't [03:06] want people coming into your country, [03:08] that's totally fair. Israel also [03:10] frequently prevents people from coming [03:11] into the country if they're like, you [03:13] know, well-known anti-Israel activists. [03:15] And it's not an infringement in anyone's [03:17] rights everyone's anyone's rights. It's [03:19] just you don't have a right to go into [03:20] any country you want. It's a good point. [03:23] >> [snorts] [03:23] >> All right. It gets a little more [03:24] interesting right here. So, Piers is [03:25] about to [03:27] respond to what she just said about the [03:28] Jewish community and the need to protect [03:29] the Jewish community, [03:31] her concern for the Jewish community, [03:33] which is [03:34] which is admirable. He responds to it by [03:36] bringing up Israel. [03:38] >> comfortable fully aligning yourself to [03:40] an Israeli government that has people [03:41] like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich who [03:44] to put it bluntly, I view as [03:46] psychopaths. [03:47] >> So, I am aligning myself with Jewish [03:49] people in our country. I don't align [03:52] myself with a particular Yeah, well well [03:53] yes, but where did you [03:54] >> Well, if you were Prime Minister of this [03:56] country, you would have to make public [03:58] statements about the Israeli government. [04:00] Given the way that certain members of [04:02] that government behave now, and what we [04:05] see with our own eyes, [04:07] would you be comfortable fully [04:08] supporting that government? [04:09] >> So, let's remember Israel is an ally of [04:12] the UK. There will be all sorts of [04:15] people who will be in any foreign [04:16] government Israel or elsewhere that I [04:19] might not be comfortable with, might [04:21] dislike their views. But when I was [04:22] Trade Secretary, I saw how Israeli [04:25] intelligence helped protect British [04:27] citizens and this country. [04:30] They are fighting a lot of battles which [04:32] are really fights for Western values. [04:34] And I think that when you look at what [04:36] happened on October 7th, the massacre [04:39] that happened, really horrific stuff [04:42] which I even find uncomfortable thinking [04:44] about, knowing what I've read about, [04:46] what I saw, that I understand why they [04:49] are in a fight for for their survival. [04:51] If there are specific [04:52] >> comfortable about the scale of the [04:54] response in say Gaza and now in Lebanon? [04:56] Are you Are you comfortable about that? [04:58] >> So, I know that mistakes have been made, [05:00] but I can also see that Israel takes [05:03] actually quite a lot of care of its own [05:04] people. [05:06] It's so I disagree when people call it a [05:08] genocide. It's a war. [05:10] All death, you know, is something which [05:12] I think should be avoided. I think [05:13] Israel actually takes care to try and [05:16] target the specific people. [05:18] >> But they're killing a lot of civilians [05:20] in the process. [05:20] >> Because Hamas uses the civilians as [05:22] human shields. [05:23] >> enough excuse eventually if it looks [05:25] like eventually we hear from Ben-Gvir [05:26] and Smotrich what they really want to do [05:28] is kick all the Palestinians out of Gaza [05:30] and the [05:30] >> So, I don't I don't know him and I don't [05:32] know what he said, so I can't comment on [05:34] that. I do think it is wrong that Hamas [05:36] uses innocent civilians as human [05:38] shields. That is what has caused a lot [05:40] of the the scale of the violence. You [05:43] look at what they did with Hezbollah and [05:44] the pagers. You look at uh the precise [05:47] targeting in Iran. I believe uh the [05:50] Israeli government when they say they do [05:52] everything they can to minimize human [05:53] life. Hamas does not do that, and even [05:56] Palestinians will say that Hamas is the [05:58] biggest oppressor of Palestinian people. [06:01] Uh getting rid of Hamas, I think is [06:03] important. It is a terrorist group. Uh [06:05] that's the issue, I think, with um the [06:08] the guest on your show. Um I'm sorry, I [06:10] I've forgotten his name. He has said [06:11] that he prefers Yeah, I he has said that [06:13] he prefers Hamas to Israel. Hamas is a [06:15] terrorist group. [06:16] >> He's No, he's always condemned Hamas to [06:18] me. [06:18] >> But um um I was told that he had said [06:20] that, and I just don't want people who [06:22] support terrorist groups coming to our [06:24] country. [06:24] >> Yeah, he's not a Hamas supporter. That's [06:26] that would be a a mischaracterization. [06:28] Two quick things before we we'll be [06:30] wrapping up. It's been very interesting [06:31] talking to you. [06:32] Um don't leave us alone next time. [06:35] >> Okay. [06:36] Uh uh first of all, when they were [06:37] talking about Shinkwiger, Shinkwiger did [06:39] in fact say that if it was a choice [06:41] between voting for Israel or voting for [06:43] Hamas, he'd vote for Hamas every time. [06:45] That was the exact quote. But, that's [06:47] not why I want what I wanted to talk [06:49] about here. You know, Piers [06:52] brings up a couple of things here that [06:55] reveal [06:56] uh [06:57] a common but serious confusion. First of [07:00] all, he called the human shields the [07:03] When she brought up that Hamas uses [07:05] civilians as human shields, he brought [07:07] it up as an excuse. It it it isn't. It [07:10] is a legal and military reality that [07:13] directly determines how casualty figures [07:16] need to be interpreted and how [07:18] international law actually judges a [07:20] military response. Kemi wasn't offering [07:23] a rhetorical dodge. She was pointing to [07:25] something that is extensively [07:27] documented, including by the Henry [07:29] Jackson Society, which is a UK-based [07:31] think tank, which published what it [07:33] describes as [07:34] the missing chapter in all the major UN [07:37] NGO reports on Gaza. [07:40] The UN has issued upwards of 400 reports [07:44] on the Gaza Strip since October 7th. I [07:46] don't know the exact number. In all of [07:47] them, [07:48] human shields are mentioned exactly four [07:51] times, always at mentioning it as an [07:54] allegation by the Israelis and an [07:56] unverified claim. Not once does the UN [07:59] dedicate even a single paragraph to [08:01] analyzing how Hamas actually fought the [08:03] war. [08:04] Uh it's it's a blind spot that's built [08:06] into the whole framework of how the [08:08] conversation goes and [08:10] of course the UN reports, and I talked [08:12] about this in another recent video, UN [08:13] reports are accorded all this [08:15] credibility. People view them as kind of [08:17] the official [08:18] report. Now, Hamas systematically [08:21] embedded, I'm just going over things you [08:23] already know, Hamas systematically [08:25] embedded military operations inside [08:27] civilian infrastructure in hospitals and [08:30] schools and mosques and residential [08:31] buildings. [08:32] This is not disputed by anyone. [08:35] Uh it's the core reason that civilian [08:37] casualties occur in urban warfare [08:39] against an enemy that deliberately uses [08:41] its own population as cover. [08:44] And when you dismiss that as an excuse, [08:46] you're inadvertently absolving Hamas of [08:48] one of the clearest war crimes [08:51] in in modern armed conflict. [08:54] Now, he also [08:56] talks about how the the what Israel's [08:59] done has been excessive, right? He's [09:01] He's [09:02] like [09:03] sometimes people will will say the same [09:05] claim referring to it as [09:06] disproportionate, right? It's it's [09:08] excessive. And what they think about [09:12] And and this is where the conversation [09:13] just gets lost cuz people that word [09:15] sounds right. Like you see all the [09:16] destruction in Gaza, you see the [09:18] numbers, and you see what happened on [09:19] October 7th, and people are like, "Wow, [09:20] this is so much more than they did, [09:23] right?" [09:24] Because the word disproportionate and [09:26] this kind or excessive, whatever, this [09:28] has a very precise legal meaning in [09:29] warfare [09:31] that almost no one on television bothers [09:33] to use correctly. [09:36] Because [09:37] for Piers Morgan, he means mean like [09:39] look at how many Gazans have died [09:40] compared to how many Israelis died on [09:42] October 7th, which is a comparison of [09:44] scale. But that's not what [09:45] proportionality in warfare means in the [09:48] laws of war. The actual legal definition [09:51] from rule 14 of the international [09:54] humanitarian law that governs warfare in [09:57] the Geneva Conventions [09:58] is this: An attack is unlawful if the [10:02] expected civilian harm [10:05] is excessive in relation to the concrete [10:08] and direct military advantage [10:11] anticipated by the by the uh by the [10:14] strike. [10:15] Meaning the proportionality is not in [10:17] relation to what the enemy did. Like you [10:18] killed five of mine, so if I kill five [10:20] of yours, that's proportional. That's [10:22] ridiculous. That's not how wars are [10:24] fought. [10:25] It's is it proportional to what you are [10:27] trying to accomplish? And kudos to Kemi [10:30] for bringing up the you know the pager [10:32] attack as an example of Israel's [10:34] humanitarian [10:36] fighting of the war. Because think about [10:37] this. [10:38] Imagine if all wars could be fought [10:41] where the only people that you killed [10:43] were the actual bad actors on the other [10:46] side, the king or the generals, the very [10:49] specific people [10:50] who are the reason for the war, and [10:51] there could be no collateral damage [10:53] whatsoever of civilians. Well, that's [10:54] generally impossible, and that's why [10:56] it's understood that in warfare there's [10:58] going to be collateral damage, and [10:59] there's going to be civilian deaths, [11:00] there's going to be deaths of people [11:02] >> [snorts] [11:02] >> who are innocent. [11:04] But what if you actually had the [11:06] technology to target only the guilty [11:08] parties? Wouldn't that be amazing? [11:10] Wouldn't that be the most humane form of [11:11] warfare? You see, the pager attack in [11:14] Lebanon was actually the most humane [11:15] form of warfare, and a lot of people [11:17] don't realize that, and kudos for Kemi [11:19] for bringing it up. Anyway, back to this [11:20] proportionality issue. [11:23] Proportionality in warfare is not a body [11:25] count comparison with the two sides. [11:27] It's not a ratio of casualties. It's a [11:31] It's an assessment of each specific [11:33] military action against its military [11:35] objective. [11:37] Is it proportional? So, if I target a uh [11:42] if there's a specific building that is a [11:44] military target because it was used as a [11:45] rocket launcher and I target it, but [11:47] instead of just targeting it, I drop [11:49] bombs that are big enough to destroy the [11:50] entire neighborhood simultaneously with [11:54] destroying that building, that's not [11:55] proportional because the military [11:58] the military uh goal the military [12:00] objective is taking out that building [12:02] and I did something disproportionate. [12:03] You get it? [12:04] So, when Israel targets a building that [12:06] houses a Hamas command center or a [12:08] tunnel shaft, the legal question is [12:10] given the military value of destroying [12:13] that target, what was the expected [12:15] civilian harm and what and is it [12:17] excessive compared to the objective? [12:22] Okay, you can debate in any specific [12:24] case and military and legal experts do [12:27] and that's where you have someone like [12:28] Colonel John Spencer of West Point who [12:30] is the expert in urban warfare who has [12:32] said repeatedly, he's written numerous [12:34] articles since October 7th about how [12:36] Israel has done more than any other army [12:38] in the world to protect civilians. [12:41] But, if you just point to the death toll [12:43] and compare it to in Gaza compared to [12:46] October 7th and say, "Oh, it's [12:47] disproportionate, it's excessive." That [12:49] just misuses the concept entirely and [12:51] speaking of that death toll, let's talk [12:53] about it cuz he does say that it's so [12:55] many civilians have been killed and you [12:57] know, it [12:58] So, let's talk about that for a few [13:00] minutes and these are again for a lot of [13:01] you, I'm going over things you know, but [13:02] it's so important to say these things. [13:06] Regarding the death toll in Gaza, [13:08] the figures cited constantly in the [13:10] media come almost exclusively from the [13:12] Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. Right? [13:16] The Henry Jackson Society, I mentioned [13:17] them before, they published a study [13:20] that found that over a 4-month period, [13:22] they took a 4-month period and they [13:24] studied all of the deaths coming out of [13:26] Gaza [13:28] uh because lists are provided by the [13:30] Gaza Health Ministry. [13:33] And 85% [13:38] of reporting during that [13:41] 4-month period of reporting on the [13:44] civilian deaths [13:45] that was done during this 4-month period [13:48] 85% [13:50] of all news items of all major media [13:53] outlets [13:54] did not distinguish between combatant [13:56] and civilian deaths. [13:58] 98% of all the reporting during this one [14:01] 4-month period [14:02] relied on Hamas-affiliated figures [14:05] without [14:07] without distinguishing fighters from [14:08] civilians. [14:11] I mean, they just And they were [14:11] whitewashing the fact that it came from [14:13] Hamas. They weren't even mentioning that [14:14] it came from Hamas. [14:16] The numbers. So, meaning the media is [14:19] just using Hamas numbers uncritically. [14:23] And those become the numbers. Now, you [14:24] could say that this is a failing of the [14:26] Israelis for not pushing back and giving [14:28] alternative numbers and doing a better [14:30] job fighting the information warfare. [14:31] And [14:32] I I would agree with a lot of that [14:34] criticism, but there's reasons for it. [14:36] That's a separate issue. [14:38] But, you know what happened? [14:40] In early 2025 [14:44] Hamas made an update to their official [14:47] lists. [14:49] And they removed around 3,400 names from [14:52] the casualty list. [14:55] Including 1,000 children. [14:57] Because those deaths had never happened. [15:00] The same update also revealed that 72% [15:04] And this was This did not get much press [15:05] coverage. [15:07] Hamas made the update. You see, because [15:09] you have the Gaza Health Ministry, which [15:11] actually has some legitimate people in [15:13] it. I mean, it's a Hamas-run ministry, [15:15] but you have some people there who are [15:16] doctors and whatever. And they keep [15:18] their They keep lists of every everyone [15:20] who dies in Gaza, whether it's from the [15:21] war not, whether it's from natural [15:23] causes, and that's another issue. [15:25] Natural cause deaths suddenly vanished [15:27] from the Gaza Strip after October 7th. [15:29] It's a whole other issue. [15:31] But what they found is that [15:34] uh [15:35] Hamas updated the lists, and then when [15:38] the Henry Jackson Society analyzed the [15:41] the lists, [15:42] approximately 72% of all the fatalities [15:48] in the combat age range of 13 to 55 were [15:52] men. Now, think about that. [15:55] Assuming a population is 50/50 men and [15:58] women, [16:00] if 72% [16:04] in that age range, from the teens to the [16:06] mid-50s, because a lot of the Hamas [16:08] fighters, unfortunately, are teenagers [16:09] who are under the age of 18, and [16:11] therefore they get counted as children. [16:13] That's another issue. There's a lot of [16:14] issues here, but 72% were combat age [16:17] men. [16:18] The demographic that overlaps with Hamas [16:20] fighters, right? [16:22] And that [16:23] and and they were always claiming that [16:25] 70% of all casualties were women and [16:27] children. They directly contradicted [16:28] themselves. Okay, this was reported by [16:30] the Jerusalem Post and some other [16:32] outlets. [16:33] And you can go find it if you look into [16:35] the Hamas Health Ministry databases. [16:40] I'm not saying that civilian deaths are [16:42] fine. They're They're Every civilian [16:44] death is terrible, but the conversation, [16:47] a serious conversation about [16:48] proportionality or who's at fault, you [16:50] have to have the correct legal [16:52] definition of it, and an honest [16:54] discussion about the tactical [16:56] environment that that Hamas created. [16:59] All right. Um [17:01] that's my comment there. [17:03] Now, things get interesting. The rest of [17:04] this interview, well, what what he [17:06] pivots to here is they talk about Kemi's [17:08] faith. [17:10] And this is very interesting. So, let's [17:12] watch this. It's a bit of a longer clip. [17:14] >> Okay. Um [17:16] what What is your faith, which I find [17:18] really interesting because you were very [17:20] open about this recently in an interview [17:23] with Amol Rajan. You said that you lost [17:25] your personal belief in God after [17:27] reading about the Josef Fritzl case, [17:29] where this Austrian monster had [17:31] imprisoned and abused his daughter for [17:33] 24 years. She'd had to have seven [17:35] children by him, and it was a [17:37] despicable, awful story. And so you had [17:40] lost your belief in God, but now [17:42] identify as a cultural Christian. And [17:45] people were a little bit confused about [17:46] that, as you know, and debated it a lot. [17:48] You happen to be married to a practicing [17:50] Catholic. [17:51] >> Goes to church every Sunday, he does. [17:52] >> Right. And And I believe your kids are [17:54] all being raised as [17:56] And they go to church every Sunday. So [17:57] what do you What do you do? What is a [17:59] cultural Christian? [18:00] >> Um I I go to church sometimes, but not [18:03] very often. But remember, I was um I'm [18:06] the granddaughter of a Methodist [18:08] reverend. Um so I grew up in a Christian [18:10] family. Uh my my grandmother, I tell [18:12] people my grandmother was born a Muslim. [18:14] She actually converted um to [18:16] Christianity after she believed she'd [18:18] witnessed a miracle. Um I grew up in a [18:20] very Christian family. And it's [18:22] >> In Nigeria? [18:22] >> Yes. Yes. In Nigeria. My childhood [18:24] >> I mean, you were born here, but then [18:25] your mother went back to [18:26] >> I was born in London, but um uh my [18:28] childhood was spent in Nigeria. And it's [18:31] literal there. The Bible is a living [18:34] word of God. So when I say I lost my [18:36] faith, it was believing that every [18:38] single thing in the Bible was true. [18:40] Because if every single thing in the [18:41] Bible was true, I don't think what [18:44] happened to uh Elisabeth Fritzl [18:47] >> Well, I think you made the point that [18:48] you made little prayers to God, which [18:50] God answered about exams and so on. But [18:53] she had clearly prayed every day to be [18:55] released from this horror, [18:56] >> Yes. [18:57] >> and had never been released for 24 [18:58] years. And you were making the point, [19:00] how can How can a just God allow this to [19:02] happen? [19:03] >> but why Why were my prayers um answered, [19:05] but not her prayers? But I am still a [19:08] cultural Christian because Do you pray? [19:10] No. But when I say I'm a cultural [19:12] Christian, that means that the culture [19:13] of Christianity is one which I think is [19:16] a force for good. I think churches are a [19:19] good thing. I think that [19:21] the the work ethic, the Protestant work [19:24] ethic, which is what what Methodists [19:27] are are are often most most seen about [19:29] is very important. I think the Christian [19:31] values, forgiveness, [19:33] turning the other cheek, truth-telling, [19:35] all of those things I think are [19:37] important. And I think that they are [19:38] very much part of the culture of this [19:40] country. I think that this is a [19:41] Christian country. I don't want to see [19:43] Christianity disappear. And so even [19:46] though I might not believe [19:48] in every single thing that is in the [19:50] Bible, overall, I think that [19:52] Christianity is a force for good and I [19:53] will fight for it. [19:54] >> Do you think you might [19:56] rekindle your belief in God, given that [19:58] your the rest of your immediate family [20:00] are pretty devout, by the sounds of it? [20:01] >> I don't think faith works like that. I [20:03] don't think faith works like that. What, [20:05] really? [20:06] >> Really? What [20:07] makes you say so? [20:07] >> I've heard people who renounced their [20:09] faith and then something happens and [20:12] they get it back. [20:12] >> I might need to see the kind of miracle [20:14] my grandmother saw once. [20:16] >> [laughter] [20:16] >> Do you think anything would persuade [20:17] you? [20:18] >> But but sometimes I look at I look at [20:21] how lucky I have been personally. [20:23] And you know, the role that I'm in. You [20:26] know, 10 years ago I was not even a [20:27] member of Parliament. Now I'm leading [20:29] the Conservative Party. And you you [20:30] know, once in a while you can think, is [20:32] there someone who is [20:34] is there a being that is directing these [20:36] things? These thoughts do cross your [20:37] mind. So I don't describe myself as an [20:39] atheist. I describe myself as agnostic. [20:42] Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, [20:44] but I will try and live my life [20:46] according to certain values, which are [20:48] Christian values, but I'm not going to [20:50] use the Bible as a textbook [20:52] for how to be in government or what [20:54] rules and regulations should should come [20:56] in. And I think that most people in the [20:58] country are probably in that in that [21:00] space, that there is [21:02] a cultural Christianity. Go to church, [21:05] Uh, you know, not just for weddings and [21:07] um and funerals, you know, Christmas and [21:09] Easter when something momentous is [21:11] happening and I am bringing my children [21:12] up in that. But I also I I I believe in [21:15] being honest and I cannot pretend that I [21:18] believe in God when I don't believe um [21:21] in God when I am agnostic about his [21:23] existence. I am somebody who, you know, [21:25] even when it's painful, I will tell the [21:27] truth. If I'm telling you something, you [21:29] know that what I say I mean. I think [21:31] that's really important in politicians. [21:32] People are so disillusioned by [21:34] politicians saying things so that they [21:36] can get votes. So, I'm not going to tell [21:37] people that I believe in something just [21:39] to get their votes. I want them to know [21:41] what I do believe. So, I'm a cultural [21:42] Christian. I believe in culture a lot. I [21:45] think we talk a lot about values but not [21:47] enough about culture and I think we have [21:48] a great culture in this country. We're [21:50] at risk of losing it if we don't [21:52] preserve it. So, I fight for churches. I [21:53] want to see them fixed. You know, I want [21:55] more money going into preserving [21:57] churches which are actually often a [21:58] repository of the history of every [21:59] village um especially in the countryside [22:02] and in rural areas. They tell a story [22:04] about who we are and and, you know, [22:06] maybe where we're going. So, [22:08] >> like Tommy Rob [22:09] >> Okay. Then they're going to go off and [22:11] talk about Tommy Robinson and some other [22:13] things I don't want to talk about uh the [22:14] rest of the interview. I thought I [22:16] thought this was a very interesting [22:19] exchange here because, [22:21] you know, first of all, she mentions [22:22] that she lost her faith [22:25] in God because of this case where there [22:28] was this girl who was being horribly [22:30] abused by her father for many, many [22:32] years [22:33] and had prayed numerous times uh [22:37] to be released from that and was not [22:39] and therefore she felt that, you know, [22:41] how could a just God allow that to [22:42] happen? And this is a kind of classic [22:44] theodicy issue. That's what the that's [22:46] the technical word, [22:48] which is the question of divine justice, [22:50] how could righteous people suffer? [22:53] And here's, [22:55] you know, I I I can't judge someone who [22:57] loses their faith [22:59] because they encounter what appears to [23:01] be unjust suffering. You know, like the [23:04] classic example of there are many [23:05] Holocaust survivors who lost their faith [23:07] in God because they looked at the [23:08] Holocaust and said, "How could this [23:09] happen?" [23:12] Um you know, how could [23:14] this cruelty happen? [23:17] And people lose their faith because of [23:18] suffering. Or they see, you know, [23:19] there's a child born with a terrible [23:21] disease at birth and they're obviously [23:24] innocent and how could they possibly be [23:25] suffering? How could there be a just [23:26] God? And they lose their faith in God. [23:28] And so, I don't want to judge that as an [23:30] emotional reaction, but it is worth [23:32] talking about theologically. [23:36] Because [23:37] again, [23:38] if if a person [clears throat] is going [23:39] to emotionally have trouble with God [23:41] because of that, they're going to have [23:42] an issue with God because of that, I get [23:44] it. [23:45] But theologically, it doesn't hold [23:47] water. Let me explain. [23:50] First of all, [23:51] the Bible itself, the Bible itself [23:55] discusses this question extensively. [23:58] There's an entire lengthy book in the [24:00] Bible called the Book of Job, which is [24:01] all about [24:04] the story of a person who is suffering, [24:06] who [24:07] it is it states quite clearly does not [24:09] deserve any of the suffering that he's [24:10] receiving. And he suffers horribly. [24:13] That's what the book is. It's a book [24:14] about suffering. [24:17] And the entire book he's struggling with [24:18] and he's trying to understand it and and [24:20] he and uh [24:22] he's talking to his friends and there's [24:23] the question of losing faith and he [24:25] doesn't lose his faith, but he's still [24:27] is struggling with it and he wonders and [24:29] and then the answer is never revealed to [24:31] him. It's an interesting situation. As [24:33] the reader of the Book of Job at the [24:34] beginning, you know exactly why he's [24:35] suffering. It has to do with this [24:37] with this wager that God makes or this [24:40] this this uh [24:42] debate so so to speak between God and [24:45] and the and the Satan. [24:49] And at the end, God doesn't tell Job [24:50] that. [24:52] God gives a speech to Job at the end of [24:53] the book just saying to him, "You don't [24:54] understand me. How could you think you [24:56] you understand me? [24:58] And for some reason Job is satisfied [24:59] with that answer. But be that as it may, [25:01] my point here is that the Bible never [25:03] promised us that there wouldn't be [25:06] suffering at the individual level that [25:07] we do not understand. Never promised us [25:10] that. [25:12] The only places where God says you know, [25:14] if you're good, you'll be prosperous. If [25:16] you're bad, you'll get punished is when [25:18] he's talking to the collective. [25:20] To the nation. [25:23] Like the curses at the end of the book [25:24] of Leviticus or the curses at the end of [25:26] the book of Deuteronomy. They're spoken [25:27] to the people as a nation. [25:31] Or earlier in the book of Deuteronomy [25:33] where it says that if you you know, what [25:34] Jews know to be the second paragraph of [25:36] the Shema that we say twice a day. But [25:38] it's a passage in Deuteronomy [25:40] that talks about how if we observe the [25:42] commandments, we're going to have [25:43] prosperity and everything's going to be [25:44] good. And if we don't observe the [25:45] commandments, everything's going to be [25:46] bad and we're going to go into exile. [25:48] That is speaking to the collective. On [25:50] the individual level, the Bible the [25:52] Bible never promises us [25:54] a just system. [25:56] And it can't. [25:58] What do you mean it can't? It can't. Let [26:00] me explain. [26:01] Imagine if we lived in a world [26:06] Imagine if we lived in a world [26:08] where [26:10] only wicked people suffered. [26:13] And people who were righteous prospered. [26:19] And there was no and there was none of [26:20] these injustices. [26:26] What would happen? [26:28] Well, it would be a horrible world. [26:30] Because we we but if we if that's the [26:33] way God governed the world [26:35] at the level of individuals [26:37] where [26:39] wicked people did not prosper, righteous [26:42] people never suffered, no one ever [26:44] suffered unjustly. [26:47] We would have just destroyed [26:49] the whole concept of virtue. [26:52] We would have destroyed good and evil, [26:54] basically. We would have reduced it only [26:55] to crass pragmatism. [26:59] Because my incentive for doing good [27:00] would simply be because it pays. I won't [27:03] suffer, I won't get sick, nothing bad [27:04] will happen to me if I'm good. [27:06] And my disincentive for doing evil [27:08] things is also extremely pragmatic. Why [27:10] would I do an evil thing? I'm just going [27:11] to get sick, it's not going to work out, [27:12] life's going to be bad if I do bad [27:13] things. [27:16] So, there's no more righteousness. [27:21] We've just destroyed good and evil. So, [27:22] God has to allow us [27:25] to choose good for the sake of virtue. [27:29] And he has to allow a certain number of [27:30] wicked people to prosper and a certain [27:32] number of righteous people to suffer. He [27:33] has to allow that [27:35] in order to preserve what really matters [27:37] in life. [27:39] Which is meaningful choices and and [27:42] achieving virtue. That's [27:45] Right? That's That's the whole purpose [27:46] of the system. [27:48] Let me go further, though. [27:50] She She said that she lost her faith [27:52] because of because God didn't answer the [27:54] prayers of this girl who was being [27:56] brutalized by her father. [28:00] This wasn't an act of God. Someone was [28:02] doing evil to someone else. [28:05] It's like people It's like the Holocaust [28:06] question. Again, I don't want to judge [28:07] emotionally people who say, "How could [28:09] God have let that happen?" [28:11] But God does not step in [28:14] and stop human beings from making evil [28:16] choices. [28:18] He doesn't do that. [28:20] Again, [28:21] it's like the other issue about uh if [28:23] you lived in a world where no righteous [28:25] people [28:26] suffered and no wicked people prospered. [28:29] It would be a destruction of free will. [28:31] It would take away the human agency, the [28:34] pure freedom of the human being to be [28:36] good or evil. [28:37] If God stepped in and stopped us, [28:41] that means that he stacked the deck in [28:43] the choices of good and evil. And And [28:45] yes, that means that people are going to [28:46] suffer as a result of that, and that's a [28:47] terrible thing. [28:50] But it's interesting like had the if the [28:52] Bible said in it that everything in the [28:54] world is always going to be governed [28:56] purely, justly, in a way that we [28:57] understand in the immediate in in in [29:01] what we see in front of us in this [29:03] world, there will be it will be [29:05] perfectly humanly understandable [29:06] justice. You know, if God had said that, [29:09] if God had said in the Bible that [29:10] righteous people will always prosper and [29:12] wicked people will always suffer. If if [29:14] God had said that in the Bible, then [29:16] yes, lose your faith over the over these [29:17] issues. [29:18] But actually the Bible says the [29:19] opposite. The Bible in in includes an [29:22] allowance for evil people to do evil [29:23] cruel things to each other. It allows [29:25] that. It allows for there to be [29:29] a system of divine justice that we don't [29:31] understand and that we don't see. [29:35] So I sympathize with with Kemi. [29:38] But it doesn't really hold water [29:40] theologically. I just thought that was [29:41] worth pointing out. It's also [29:42] interesting she talks about this [29:43] cultural Christianity, which again [29:47] it's true that the values of Western [29:49] civilization are Christian values and [29:51] not enough attention is paid to that. [29:52] The problem is that if you reduce it to [29:54] cultural Christianity, you're already [29:56] halfway out the door cuz that's not [29:58] going to be transmissible to children. [30:00] People are not going to fight for that [30:02] in their own private lives. They're not [30:03] going to fight for that. It's not a [30:05] conviction. It's It's not a [30:07] a belief. [30:08] Uh it's not a strong enough belief, [30:09] cultural Christianity. [30:11] So [30:12] I appreciate what she's saying, and [30:14] she's right. We need to preserve the [30:16] Christian ethos of these Western [30:17] nations, uh which is slipping away. [30:21] But uh [30:23] I don't know, cultural Christianity is [30:24] probably not going to do it. Anyway, [30:25] these are some of my thoughts on this. [30:26] Overall, I really like Kemi. I think she [30:28] she's straight-talking. [30:30] I like her positions on Israel. I think [30:33] it would be a really good sign if [30:36] she comes to power [30:38] in the next election [30:39] uh because uh she seems to have her head [30:41] screwed on, right? [30:43] All right. That's it. [30:45] Thanks for watching. God bless.
