Transcript [00:01] Rabbi Small Isaac [00:03] >> The Rabbi Osher Mezah came down, founder [00:05] of Rejuvenate, and most recently founder [00:08] of the first Jewish meditation app of [00:10] its kind. It's remarkable and so special [00:12] to be sitting with you, not just in [00:14] South Africa, but here in Jerusalem, [00:16] Israel. [00:17] >> Benji, [music] it's uh it's an honor of [00:18] mine to be here, to experience the [00:22] energy of Israel, and to engage with [00:25] such amazing work that you're engaging [00:27] with. [00:27] >> How amazing we grew up together. [00:28] >> Unbelievable. [00:29] >> 20 years [00:30] >> To come back and to be on the same [00:32] journey that we started so many years [00:34] ago, and then to have our paths cross so [00:37] many times, and to be here together at [00:40] this insanely poignant moment is [00:42] unbelievable. [00:43] >> I'm not sure I could ask you the first [00:44] question I'm about to ask you 20 years [00:46] ago when we were in Coogee Beach or [00:48] Maroubra Beach or Bondi Beach or playing [00:50] with fireworks. [00:51] But the question I want to ask you, as [00:54] really one of the Jewish mystics of [00:56] South Africa, what is Jewish mysticism? [00:59] >> Gav, to be called the Jewish mystic of [01:01] of South Africa is definitely an [01:03] overstatement. [01:05] Um what I can say in my own experience [01:08] of mysticism is that Jewish mysticism is [01:12] the spiritual technology [01:14] that gives you access into yourself, [01:18] into a understanding of the world around [01:21] you, [01:22] and having an appreciation of the deeper [01:25] elements of one's relationship with [01:26] Hashem, [01:27] and to come to a true recognition as far [01:31] as that can go, [01:32] that those aforementioned things are all [01:36] the same. That there's no difference [01:38] between you, Hashem, and the world [01:41] around you, that it's all subsumed in a [01:42] state of unity and oneness. [01:44] >> So how were you introduced to this world [01:46] of thought? [01:48] Into this like radical way of thinking, [01:49] how were you introduced to it? [01:52] >> I had an introduction, I think, in a [01:54] similar space that both you and I were [01:57] in together where we had this outreach [02:00] camp in Australia called Counterpoint. [02:03] And I remember being a child frustrated, [02:06] confused, and feeling a sense of inner [02:09] emptiness. [02:10] And I remember there being a class [02:14] offered by one of the rabbis there about [02:16] the deeper metaphysics of angels and [02:19] their place in our lives and how that [02:21] functions. And it sounded like an [02:23] interesting topic. [02:25] And I remember coming out of that class [02:27] and I felt like a switch was on. It was [02:30] switched on inside of me. I felt [02:32] purpose. I felt that there was a deeper [02:34] realm of existence from that class. And [02:37] I felt that I now had the opportunity to [02:40] explore. And that was my initial [02:42] introduction into a space of mystical [02:44] experience and Kabbalah. [02:46] >> Amazing. So, one class at the right time [02:48] in the right way flicked the switch that [02:50] allowed you to flick the switch for so [02:52] many other people. With all these [02:54] people, do you think all Jews should be [02:56] mystics? [02:58] >> You know, the word mystic is a very, [03:00] very scary word. [03:02] It gives off the experience of something [03:05] that's aloof, something that's [03:06] disconnected, something that's floating [03:08] up in the sky. [03:10] And I think the terminology mystic at [03:13] its essence just means to be in a deep [03:17] state of connection. [03:19] And to say that there are some Jews that [03:22] shouldn't be in a state of connection, [03:24] shouldn't be in a state of deeper [03:25] understanding of what's transpiring [03:27] inside of themselves, inside of the [03:29] world around them, and their [03:31] relationship with Hashem [03:33] is a massive, massive [03:37] shame. [03:38] Because an individual and every human [03:40] being, especially every Jew, has to have [03:43] an and is deserving to have a deeper [03:46] understanding and a deeper connection to [03:48] who they are and what's around them. So, [03:50] I believe that everyone has the [03:52] potential to delve deeper, and we need [03:55] to start asking how to do that. [03:56] >> So, I want to ask you, you know, you [03:58] picked on a really important point, [03:59] which is language. [04:01] That there's certain labels that we use, [04:02] like the word mystic means this, but [04:05] really it means that. And I want to [04:07] actually go back to some of the basics. [04:09] God. Right? And I want to ask you about [04:12] a few other terms. When I say the word [04:14] God, not what does everyone else think [04:16] of it, what do you think of? [04:19] >> So, the word God [04:22] is a very dangerous word and a very [04:24] misconstrued word. [04:26] And I think, and it took me a while to [04:29] come to this deduction, [04:31] that [04:32] when I think of God, I think of a space [04:36] of endlessness. [04:38] The best definition that I experience of [04:41] God is Ein Sof, is endlessness, is no [04:45] end. [04:46] And [04:48] the deeper I experience that thought, [04:52] I start to experience a sense of love. I [04:55] think about endless love. [04:59] But the more I come into a space of [05:01] recognition, [05:03] you stop thinking as well. And that [05:05] space of stopping to think is a space of [05:08] deep, deep connection to God. And that's [05:10] I think the progression that one sees [05:12] God as this entity that's external to [05:15] them, and that's generally what the [05:16] terminology is. But I think that when [05:19] one sees the endlessness of God, they [05:21] have a deeper way of being able to [05:23] connect to that space. [05:24] >> So, if we're carrying on sort of [05:26] clarifying terms, [05:28] the definition of God, you've shared a [05:30] very personal connection to the Ein Sof, [05:32] to this endlessness. What would you say [05:34] is the purpose of the Jewish people? [05:38] >> The purpose of the Jewish people, from [05:40] my understanding, [05:42] is to be a nexus of that endlessness [05:45] into the world. That through their [05:47] practice, through their rectification, [05:49] through their personal growth, [05:51] through their shifting of blockage [05:54] within the self and within their [05:55] relationship with one another, [05:58] to be a light onto the nations in the [06:00] sense that we share that love, we share [06:03] that connection, we share that space of [06:06] wisdom with the world, to which then the [06:09] entire world is uplifted through us as a [06:12] nation. [06:12] >> Amazing. Let's just carry on through [06:14] these terms cuz I'm loving the way [06:16] you're couching your definitions. And of [06:18] course, there could be varied [06:20] definitions, but they feel on the one [06:22] hand personal, coming from a place of [06:24] real depth of thought, and on the other [06:26] hand, you're packaging and in somewhat [06:28] of a universal way that everyone can [06:29] access. They may have a different this [06:31] or that, but this is how you're sort of [06:33] projecting and sharing that. Let's now [06:35] look at prayer. [06:36] You know, you've made a meditation app. [06:38] Uh meditation and prayer have certain [06:41] differences, but also certain [06:42] similarities getting into the right mind [06:43] frame. How does prayer work? [06:46] >> It's a very good question. [06:48] And it's a question that in my [06:50] experience with so many Jews [06:53] is one of the most difficult spaces to [06:55] engage with. [06:57] And [06:58] from my personal experience, [07:01] from my engagement with fellow with [07:03] prayer, [07:06] I can share with you two ideas that I [07:07] think transform an individual's [07:09] understanding. [07:11] The first is an idea from the Maral. [07:14] And the Maral tells us that the purpose [07:16] of prayer [07:18] is to punctuate the space of one's day. [07:22] That an individual, and Rabbi Nachman [07:23] brings this, an individual can fall into [07:26] an unconsciousness of self and a [07:29] subsumption in their day-to-day [07:31] activity, [07:32] and just enter into the sleep state as [07:34] Rabbi Nasan brings in the Kodes [07:36] Halachus. [07:37] And the purpose of prayer is to come and [07:39] say, "Stop. [07:41] Just stop before lose yourself. And on [07:44] the most basic level, even if a person [07:47] isn't davening with kavana, with [07:48] intention, and with connection, just [07:51] that process of saying, "You know what [07:52] I'm going to do when I wake up in the [07:54] morning, and I want to sleep, and I want [07:56] to go get my coffee, which you can't [07:57] have before prayer, but I want to go and [07:59] experience, you know, pleasure, and [08:01] whatever that is, [08:03] go and daven." [08:06] Punctuate your day with a state of [08:08] knowledge that there is something deeper [08:09] to who you are. That goes for mincha, [08:11] that goes for maariv. And those are [08:13] spaces where an individual needs that [08:15] remind of who they are. But on a deeper [08:18] level, the Tanya of the Vayera brings [08:20] down that the purpose of prayer [08:23] is a plug point. It's a space for you to [08:25] tap in. [08:27] And I remember when I was leaving [08:28] Israel, [08:30] coming to Australia, the first or the [08:32] last filler, the last prayer that I had [08:34] at the daven in the airport, I didn't [08:36] even have time to go to the to the [08:37] synagogue there. And I remember I looked [08:39] up, and I saw where I was davening, [08:41] and there was a plug station right [08:43] there. [08:44] And the understanding that prayer is the [08:47] ability to tap in. [08:49] What does it mean to tap in? [08:52] It means that there are parts to us, [08:54] five levels of who we are, our nefesh, [08:57] ruach, neshama, chaya, yechida, our [09:00] state of body, our state of emotion, our [09:01] state of intellect, our state of [09:03] consciousness, and our state of [09:04] nothingness, the meta-consciousness. [09:07] And prayer is that ladder that allows [09:09] you to elevate through those spaces of [09:11] self [09:13] to come out a connected human being. [09:16] >> I know that I hear just before you left [09:18] Israel, [09:19] after this time of transformation for [09:21] yourself, [09:22] you had this image after seeing a plug [09:24] of the ladder. [09:26] It's exactly same as Yaakov. [09:28] The sulam Yaakov, he's sitting there, [09:30] he's about to leave Israel, [09:32] and he has this vision of this ladder. [09:34] >> Exactly. [09:35] >> And it and and that carried him to come [09:36] back, and it's carried you to come back [09:38] and it carries all of us but the sockets [09:41] are all over the world and we can always [09:42] plug in through this portal of prayer [09:44] meaning of course there's a physical [09:46] uniqueness of this place but there's a [09:48] portable sense of holiness that we can [09:50] tap into that you're describing through [09:52] prayer. [09:53] >> Yes, 100% and that's really the way that [09:56] we built the Eden app. It's based on the [09:58] Sula Mutza V'artza V'rosh Migdal [10:01] Hashamayim. [10:02] That is that an individual needs to be [10:04] deeply rooted in self and a comfortable [10:07] within self in order to take the next [10:10] steps up up the rung of the ladder to [10:12] connect to Hashem. They're all [10:13] intertwined. [10:14] >> So what about Torah study? [10:16] You know we're hitting all the big ones [10:17] here but there was this mass revelation [10:20] and there was a reveal of this [10:23] Torah. Like what's the goal of studying [10:26] it? [10:27] >> Wow, an amazing and poignant space of [10:31] experience for any Jew and it should be [10:33] a space of experience for any Jew. [10:36] And growing up in Yeshiva this is the [10:39] focal point. [10:41] Every person needs to learn Torah. [10:44] Now what happens if you're not an [10:45] intellectual? What happens if you [10:46] struggle to focus and to understand? [10:49] I know when we grew up, you know, both [10:51] of our quite both of us quite naughty in [10:53] in school. Lack of focus but I think [10:56] that the space of Torah is one of the [10:59] most fundamental experiences and the [11:01] reason is because the greatest blockage [11:04] to a person's spirituality is their own [11:07] mind. [11:08] The Kabbalists bring down that the [11:10] rotating swords in the entrance to Eden [11:13] is actually one's thoughts. [11:16] And Hashem tells us we read it [11:18] endlessly. We read it actually in the in [11:20] the third day of Hayom Yom. [11:23] That Machshavot Yeda Hashem knows that [11:27] the thoughts of man are endless and are [11:29] not but Hashem has given us his Torah to [11:32] be able to quieten our mind. And when a [11:35] person is able to utilize learning and [11:38] study, what they're essentially doing is [11:40] removing the blockage of one's ego in [11:43] their mind that is creating that [11:45] frazzled state of thought and confusion [11:48] and allows it to be purified to then [11:50] take that next step to tap into Menuchas [11:53] Nefesh, to tap into Hashem, to tap into [11:55] a simplicity of life. And I truly [11:57] believe that if a person isn't [11:59] diligently engaging with understanding [12:02] and clarifying as Rebbe Nachman brings [12:04] down, many people think about Rebbe [12:06] Nachman, they think this Chassidic [12:08] leader, this this doyen of [12:11] consciousness. [12:13] It's brought down in Sichos Saran that [12:15] his engagement with Torah study and [12:18] particularly [12:20] Halacha was the main focus of his life [12:23] and day. And he said that to clarify and [12:26] to engage with the clarification of [12:28] doubt and confusion, which is [12:30] essentially what a person is [12:31] experiencing through the study of Torah, [12:34] is that process of removing doubt from [12:36] one's mind, which is the source of so [12:38] much pain and and disconnection. [12:40] >> So so really the goal is to among other [12:43] things find clarity and to remove doubt [12:46] and to tap into the system that you're [12:47] describing. [12:48] >> Yeah, the clarity is is accessed through [12:51] the ability to humble oneself and to [12:53] nullify oneself. And the mind is the [12:55] greatest source of one's one of the [12:58] greatest source of uh ego and arrogance. [13:02] And that clarity is definitely only [13:04] accessed through the space of Torah. [13:06] >> What about women and men? Does [13:08] Kabbalistic literature sort of see a [13:09] difference between the two? Are they the [13:11] same? You know, we talk about oneness on [13:13] the other hand, on the other hand [13:14] there's language, feminine, masculine. [13:16] How does this come together? [13:17] >> An amazingly important idea and [13:21] the understanding needs to be had in the [13:24] sense that we see so much [13:25] differentiation. And my work as a rabbi, [13:28] one of the biggest issues that women [13:30] have is the seeming inequality that they [13:32] face in terms of the responsibility as a [13:35] Jewess in comparison to a male. [13:38] And it can't be as as further than the [13:40] truth that if one looks into Kabbalah, [13:43] one looks into Pnimiyut HaTorah, one [13:45] looks into the explanations that Bnei [13:47] Yisrael brings us down, [13:50] one comes to an understanding that the [13:53] energy force of a woman [13:55] is actualization. [13:57] The energy force of a man [13:59] is potential. [14:01] Now, because of those particularizations [14:04] of energy, [14:06] we have different roles in their [14:08] entirety. [14:09] Man has to seek to take potential and [14:12] ground it in actual. [14:14] While woman needs to seek to take actual [14:18] and open it to potential. [14:20] And in that saying, we understand that [14:22] there's absolute equality and necessity. [14:25] Nothing is greater than anything else to [14:28] say that the chair that we're sitting on [14:29] now, [14:30] that one leg is more important than the [14:32] other leg, that the seat is important [14:34] than the backrest, is to say that you [14:37] can't exist with one without the other. [14:40] And the understanding of [14:41] masculine-feminine is a very, very vital [14:44] component within Yiddishkeit from that [14:46] understanding of potential and actual [14:48] and their relationship to one another. [14:51] >> And and obviously a lot of that is [14:53] metaphorical. Obviously a lot of that is [14:55] different things that we need to learn [14:56] from and apply in our lives. And a lot [14:58] of it is actual as well. And it's, you [15:00] know, sometimes unfortunately these [15:02] labels can can, as you said, like, you [15:05] know, especially for women, they can [15:07] push them back. But, you know, thank God [15:09] sociologically everyone has advanced. [15:11] It's about understanding the essence and [15:13] tapping into that potential. [15:14] >> 100% and I I I should add that every [15:17] single human being has masculine and [15:19] feminine energy. [15:21] We don't have this, you know, black and [15:24] white experience of self. We have a [15:26] mixed space of self. And that [15:28] intertwined relationship and respect for [15:30] one another and the energy that each [15:34] each individual needs from the other is [15:36] a vital recognition. Yeah. [15:38] >> So, what is the biggest obstacle to [15:39] living a more spiritual life? [15:43] >> The biggest obstacle [15:45] and many, many obstacles exist. It's [15:48] It's very hard to come to a deduction of [15:50] what is the biggest obstacle. [15:54] But I think that the biggest one of the [15:56] biggest one of the obstacles I can speak [15:58] about [16:00] is misperception. [16:04] The misperception of the role of Torah, [16:06] the misperception of what God is, [16:08] the misperception of the space that we [16:11] exist in. When one looks at the world [16:13] around them, [16:15] we see separateness. [16:17] When one experiences or looks at [16:19] themselves, we misperceive what is our [16:22] actualized self and what is our truer [16:24] self. [16:26] And misperception is one of the most [16:29] dangerous spaces because we are walking [16:32] around in the dark. We don't understand. [16:35] And the more understanding and the more [16:36] depth of understanding gives a person [16:39] direction. [16:40] But I think another element of [16:41] misperception [16:43] is identification. [16:46] And, you know, we we're in this [16:48] role together to try and encourage other [16:52] Jewish people to feel connected to their [16:54] Judaism, [16:55] to feel connected to Torah. [16:58] But one of the greatest [17:00] spaces I think of destruction [17:03] is that a person identifies as and this [17:05] is going to sound strange [17:07] identifies as a Jew. [17:10] Why is that such a horrible thing? I [17:12] mean, it sounds crazy from a rabbi to [17:14] say that to identify as a Jew is is I'll [17:18] tell you why. [17:19] Because what it means to be Jewish [17:22] is not only your cultural space or your [17:25] ancestry of where your parents came from [17:28] and where your grandparents came from. [17:30] What it means to be a Jew is in fact [17:33] to let go of one's external identity and [17:36] come into connection with one's deepest [17:39] expansive self. [17:41] And I think that today's day and age [17:43] with with social media, with the [17:45] externalization of who we are, [17:48] identification has become so pronounced. [17:51] And the more we relinquish or assuage [17:54] that space of identification and come [17:57] into a deeper sense of self, the more a [18:00] person has access to spirituality. [18:02] >> So, why did God create the world? [18:04] If we step back from these spiritual [18:06] blockages, God put us in this world. [18:08] He's perfect. We're imperfect. Why do [18:11] this thing? [18:13] >> I think that's a great way. I think [18:15] you've answered the exact question by [18:17] saying the perfect and the imperfect. [18:20] And to stem from the perfect, [18:23] to stem from our initial definition, at [18:25] least my [18:27] my most connected definition for myself, [18:29] which is ain so which is endlessness. [18:32] If one was to take the analogy of a [18:33] bottle [18:35] or a vessel, [18:37] and that vessel continues to overflow, [18:39] or continues to be an infinite space of [18:41] overflowing, [18:43] what transpires is that overflow of [18:45] infinity comes into a space [18:48] and wants to share that energy of [18:50] infinity. [18:51] The greatest way that infinity can share [18:54] itself is in a space of finite shape. [18:57] And Hashem's tzimtzum, Hashem's [18:59] retraction of creating space, [19:03] allowed for our imperfection [19:07] and allowed for us to have accessibility [19:10] through the evolution of self into a [19:12] space of consciousness, exactly what we [19:15] just spoke about now, the transcendence [19:18] of identity. [19:19] And Hashem has given us that [19:20] opportunity. If it was just free for the [19:23] taking, as the Kabbalists bring down the [19:25] Nachamu dichi sufah, just the space of [19:28] free giving, [19:30] there's no true and deep and joyful [19:33] expression because it's not yours. [19:36] And Hashem allowed us, [19:39] through creating the world, [19:41] to evolve beyond the constricted self of [19:44] self, [19:45] and enter into a deeper space of [19:47] connection to the infinite. And that's [19:49] the greatest reward. And Hashem Hashem [19:51] is in his infinity wants us to [19:53] experience pleasure and reward at its [19:56] core. And I think that's that's why [19:58] Hashem created the world. [19:59] >> So, then where does free will fit in? [20:02] >> Free will fits into that nexus. [20:05] Where are you blocked? Where is your [20:07] identity? The identification with [20:10] externality, the identification with all [20:12] of the aspects or or pseudo experiences [20:17] of infinite, [20:19] money, [20:20] food, pleasure. [20:22] All of those self-identifications which [20:24] give a person that bout of pseudo [20:28] infinity, [20:30] free will [20:31] is the ability to say, "I know that [20:34] there's a deeper part of myself. I know [20:36] that there's an expression and [20:37] experience and a connection that I have [20:40] internally that's not found in these [20:42] externalizations of pseudo infinity." [20:45] >> What about Moshiach, the Messianic era? [20:48] Sort of, you know, where this is all [20:49] meant to be heading. When I say [20:51] Moshiach, what do you think of? What is [20:52] this concept? [20:55] >> It's a massive question. [20:57] As all of these questions are. [20:58] >> Sorry about that. [20:59] >> It's okay. [21:01] But, [21:03] the Kabbalah brings down, the The brings [21:05] down, the Baal Shem Tov brings this [21:07] down. [21:09] The Mashiach is a state of [21:11] consciousness. [21:13] Much more than it is a human being, some [21:16] amazing entity that comes into our lives [21:18] to guide us and give us direction and [21:20] and redeem us from a state of pain and [21:23] constriction. [21:25] Mashiach is a state of consciousness. [21:28] It's a time of consciousness. And what I [21:31] think what if when I think of Mashiach [21:33] is I think of a different [21:36] frequency of experience of life that all [21:39] of humanity is able to tap into. [21:42] >> Is the state of Israel part of this [21:43] process? Is is this part of the [21:45] redemption? [21:46] >> The state of Israel is definitely a part [21:48] of this process. To be connected to our [21:51] land, to be connected to a space of deep [21:53] kedusha, to be together in a space where [21:56] we are able to grow and learn and [21:58] experience Torah in a in a hub of of of [22:02] life called Israel, called the Jewish [22:05] people. [22:06] Is one of the most powerful experiences. [22:09] You know, I haven't been back to Israel [22:11] for five or six years. [22:13] >> Crazy. [22:13] >> And uh to come back here [22:17] is one of the most powerful experiences [22:19] for me to experience. And the state of [22:21] Israel has facilitated and continues to [22:23] facilitate [22:24] that space of spiritual evolution and [22:27] experience. [22:28] But one of the dangers of [22:30] of the state is coming back to this [22:33] space of identification. [22:36] As much as an individual has to create a [22:38] connectivity and a gratitude [22:41] and a subsumption of experience through [22:44] the state and together with the state to [22:46] build the state. [22:48] The danger [22:50] is being lost in identifying [22:54] with another [22:56] pseudo experience of what it means to be [22:58] a Jewish. [23:00] And to on a lower level [23:02] they I'm not saying this isn't an [23:03] experience of being Jewish, but on a [23:04] lower level to cap oneself, to say that [23:08] my experience of Judaism is [23:11] nationalistic and that's it. [23:15] Is capping oneself from the vast [23:18] experience of self, of the universe, and [23:20] every single thing around you. [23:22] So, I think that the state of Israel [23:26] being one of the greatest greatest [23:28] miracles of our time [23:30] has to be engaged with maturity and has [23:33] to be engaged with deep caution [23:35] to not be a [23:38] a quick fix [23:40] for what we're looking for as Jews. [23:41] >> I like that cuz I was just thinking the [23:43] word state is almost like a stage. It's [23:46] a process. You have a state of mind. Or [23:48] you have a state of being. It's a [23:50] specific thing. So, the state can't be [23:53] confined to the state. This is a state. [23:55] This is a part of the Jewish experience. [23:57] >> 100%. [23:58] >> And if all you focus on is Shabbat then [24:00] you're missing the picture. If all you [24:01] focus on the state of Israel, you're [24:02] missing the picture. If all you focus on [24:04] is the Torah, you're missing the [24:05] picture. There's so many different [24:07] parts. You need all of them and they're [24:09] all there to animate one another and to [24:11] be part of this much broader experience. [24:13] So, if we're going broad in that sense, [24:15] you live in Cape Town, South Africa. [24:17] You come from Sydney, Australia. [24:19] Hands down, as far as I know, two of the [24:21] most beautiful cities in the entire [24:23] world. [24:24] You see incredible beaches and amazing [24:27] culture and a beautiful place, you know, [24:30] but then you see people struggling. [24:32] What is the greatest challenge that we [24:35] face together as humanity? [24:38] >> The greatest challenge [24:40] >> [sighs] [24:42] >> The greatest challenge, I think today's [24:45] humanity [24:48] and the [24:50] the in the flood [24:53] of potential experiences that a person [24:55] has in front of them [24:58] to firstly [25:01] create a state of entertainment or a [25:04] pseudo experience as we said previously [25:06] of expensivity. [25:08] The ease of access and the destructive [25:11] state of access is one of the greatest [25:14] experiences I think we are going through [25:16] as a civilization. [25:18] That when a person is feeling that [25:20] existential longing for something deeper [25:24] they pick up their phone immediately and [25:27] you know drug themselves so to speak [25:29] into a forgetfulness of what truly is [25:32] being [25:34] what's screaming within. [25:35] >> So what's the antidote? How do you deal [25:37] with it? [25:38] >> I think the antidote is twofold. I think [25:40] the antidote is understanding the space [25:43] of what the Halakha and the Torah [25:44] teaches us because the space of Halakha [25:46] and the Torah is there to create healthy [25:49] boundaries to these pseudo experiences [25:53] of self. [25:54] And to understand one's relationship [25:57] with these elements [25:58] in a healthy way can only be found [26:01] through a unbiased space of instruction [26:04] from Hashem. [26:06] But on a deeper level to create systems, [26:08] to create avenues, to create experiences [26:12] to start to reawaken who we really are [26:15] on a deeper level. [26:17] And I think with those two [26:19] elements we can start to counter the [26:23] pain of society and the the the qualms [26:27] of society that every human being I [26:29] think is experiencing. [26:30] >> So has modernity changed Jewish [26:32] mysticism in any way? [26:36] >> I don't think you can change Jewish [26:37] mysticism. [26:39] Jewish mysticism in its core which is so [26:43] powerful and poignant about it is [26:45] something that is eternal as infinite. [26:49] What I I modernity has done [26:52] is created [26:54] an avenue of recognition that there is [26:58] more. [26:59] And that avenue of recognition has come [27:02] through exposure [27:05] and experience to other modalities that [27:08] exist in this world. [27:09] That now to have movements that are [27:14] emphasizing the importance of [27:17] mindfulness, the importance of balance, [27:20] emphasizing the importance of health, [27:22] connection. [27:24] All of these movements are creating the [27:27] language and the awareness that, you [27:29] know what, there is something deeper to [27:31] who I am as a human being. So I think as [27:34] dangerous as modernity has been, there's [27:37] been a revival in many, many ways. To [27:40] add to the revival though, [27:42] I think it's the pain of modernity. And [27:45] I think that as a society and as a [27:47] civilization, we are experiencing deep [27:49] pain, existential pain, which has come [27:52] because of modernity. But it's from that [27:54] pain [27:56] that the birth of consciousness is able [27:58] to be born. [27:59] >> What about um, you know, you mentioned [28:01] mindfulness and different states that [28:03] have come since modernity. When you and [28:06] I were be um, becoming more religious [28:08] just over two decades ago and throughout [28:10] the time in between, you've been very [28:12] open or you were open then to other [28:14] schools of thought, to other ideas. In [28:16] fact, you looked at things like Buddhism [28:18] originally, you studied different [28:20] mystical teachings, you you you looked [28:22] at things like yoga and different, you [28:24] know, practices in this way. [28:27] And at the same time you've chosen [28:28] Jewish mysticism. [28:30] Is there something unique to Jewish [28:31] mysticism as opposed to other schools of [28:33] thought and other mysticisms in this [28:34] space? And if so, what is it? [28:38] >> Thank you. Another important uh, [28:40] question. [28:41] And I think to answer your question, [28:47] when we look at other [28:50] ideologies, when we look at other [28:51] systems, [28:53] we can be very quick to bash them down [28:55] because they don't fit into ours [28:56] immediately. [28:58] And I think that an understanding that [29:00] every single human being is looking for [29:03] the same thing. They're looking for [29:05] oneness, they're looking for unity, [29:07] they're looking for menuchas hanefesh, [29:08] they're looking for tranquility. [29:11] And every system is trying to give us a [29:13] way there. [29:14] To say that some systems [29:17] are better than others, I think is 100% [29:20] true. I think that there are some [29:22] systems that develop a deeper awareness [29:25] of how to get to a space of clarity and [29:27] work through the self [29:29] in a deeper way. [29:30] And where Judaism falls into the picture [29:34] is that it is one of the most ancient [29:36] traditions, one of the traditions that [29:38] come from the most unbiased spaces [29:41] because it is directly given to us by [29:43] God, without any intermediaries of [29:46] externalization [29:47] of prophecies that are external [29:50] to the immediacy of God [29:52] that have been witnessed by multitudes. [29:55] These prophets, Moshe Rabbeinu, the [29:57] prophets that the Jewish people were [29:58] able to receive the Torah themselves. [30:01] There's a direct connectivity that [30:04] Judaism provides that allows a space of [30:07] purity. [30:08] And I believe that all of the other [30:09] modalities that exist in this world [30:12] have husks, have elements of truth. As [30:15] it says, "Chochmah bagoyim ta'amin." We [30:17] have to understand that there is wisdom [30:19] all around us. [30:21] But to have wisdom [30:23] that is not ensconced, that is not [30:25] protected [30:27] by the system of Torah [30:30] is to say that you have wisdom [30:32] and you allow whatever you want to do [30:34] externally to run rife. [30:36] The Torah tells us, "Shama u'zachor." [30:39] Zachor, the ability to remember, I think [30:41] is the space of wisdom. [30:43] But to not have it within a system, [30:46] which is shamar, which is guarded, to [30:48] not have the objective truths of how to [30:52] encounter your ego, that it doesn't take [30:54] over you, [30:55] is to have the greatest liquid, the [30:57] greatest drink [30:59] without a vessel to hold it. And I think [31:01] that's why Judaism and the mystical [31:03] teachings of Judaism are so vital in [31:06] terms of our direction to to the space [31:08] of connection. [31:09] >> So when you started to be more connected [31:10] and learning Jewish mysticism, you [31:11] weren't fully religious. Your main [31:14] clientele, the people you work with, are [31:16] not fully religious in the traditionally [31:17] observant sense. Do you need to be [31:19] religious to um study Jewish mysticism? [31:23] >> I think it connects to the previous [31:25] answer in that [31:28] you know, I asked one of my rabbis, Reb [31:29] Berkovits, [31:31] I said to him, well, I asked him, [31:33] you know, if the teachings of the Baal [31:35] Shem Tov and the Vilna Gaon say this [31:38] Vilna Gaon says this as well, [31:39] that the purpose of life, the purpose of [31:41] the Torah, is to work on your [31:43] attributes. It's to remove the blockages [31:46] of self. If that's the purpose, [31:48] why don't we just come out into the [31:50] world as rabbis, come out into the world [31:52] as spiritual educators, and just say, [31:54] "Guys, all you need [31:57] is to become a more patient person. All [32:00] you need is to become a more forgiving [32:02] person." [32:03] Why don't we just work on our [32:05] attributes? [32:07] And he said to me, "You can. That's part [32:09] of Torah. That is a hundred percent part [32:12] of Torah." [32:14] But again, [32:15] if we have the greatest greatest [32:17] revelation of truth, which is that [32:19] deepest space of connectivity, the [32:21] greatest I know you like whiskey, I like [32:23] tequila, but let's say you have the [32:24] greatest drink [32:26] that will allow you to have the most [32:28] spiritual experiences and elevate [32:31] through a space of self to come to that [32:33] connectivity, again, if it's not within [32:36] the fabric and the framework of a [32:37] vessel, [32:39] it flows away. [32:40] And the structure, we don't need to [32:42] utilize the terminology religiosity. [32:45] Just understand that we need structure [32:48] because we can't trust our own egos. [32:52] And the system of halakha, the system of [32:55] dedication to functioning through the [32:57] prism and the system of Torah, [33:00] is there to create a healthy ecosystem [33:03] for deeper consciousness to hold that [33:05] spirit into place. [33:07] >> So you're saying it's definitely ideal [33:08] to be within this framework. I [33:09] understand that, but can someone study [33:11] Jewish mysticism if they're not [33:12] religious? [33:13] >> 100% 100% [33:15] >> it. [33:15] >> Everyone can access this. [33:17] >> And should? [33:17] >> And should. Everyone should be engaging [33:20] and, you know, in fact [33:22] in terms of most of my teachings with [33:25] people who are irreligious, the access [33:27] point for them is mysticism. [33:30] First, we start off with that space of [33:32] understanding of connection, and then [33:34] that gives context to why we experience [33:37] any religious environment. And I think [33:39] that's 100% accessible to anyone. [33:41] >> And can it be dangerous? Can Jewish [33:42] mysticism be a dangerous practice or [33:45] dangerous thing to study? [33:46] >> Definitely. Definitely. [33:48] You know, I had a deep deep friend that [33:52] I used to frequent one of the great [33:54] mystics [33:55] of our of our generation, Reb Shmaya [33:58] Silverberg. And I would come to his tish [34:01] together with this individual, and we [34:03] were deeply deeply connected. [34:05] And we would go, you know, Motzei [34:07] Shabbos after Shabbos together in this [34:09] dark gorgeous environment [34:11] >> me once. [34:12] >> I took you once. [34:14] And [34:17] after many years, my friend was in [34:18] Yeshiva studying. He was constantly [34:20] there together with his study of Gemara, [34:22] and he's coming to these experiences. [34:25] And then I went back home after being in [34:26] Yeshiva, [34:28] and I found out [34:30] that my friend had a mental breakdown. [34:33] And I dropped everything. [34:36] And I was so triggered, so troubled. It [34:38] was my roommate as well. We had a very [34:40] close connection. I called him. I said, [34:42] "What's going on? Like how how could [34:44] have you just dropped everything? We [34:46] were so connected." [34:48] And what he said to me [34:50] was that he was using Judaism. He was [34:53] using the experience of Judaism [34:55] just like he used to use the experience [34:57] of going to a rave. [35:00] All it was was a distraction from self. [35:04] And if a person enters into mysticism to [35:07] distract themselves from self, [35:10] that's extremely dangerous. [35:13] >> Amazing. [35:14] So, I want to ask you to bring that down [35:17] to self, to bring it down to [35:19] relationships. [35:20] You're a great husband, a great father, [35:23] a great rabbi, a great son. [35:24] >> I'm not I'm not sure how you know all of [35:26] these things, but uh [35:27] >> I happened to have seen you in these [35:29] environments some for a number of years. [35:31] And my question is, how has this [35:33] practically come down into your own [35:34] life? Can you give me a real [35:36] relationship, a real example with one [35:38] child or with one friend or with one [35:40] person that Jewish mysticism has changed [35:43] the way you you interact, changed your [35:45] relationships? [35:47] >> Many people ask me [35:49] when I teach these concepts to them, [35:52] "So, how do you experience your life? [35:55] Has this been the antidote for [35:57] everything? Are you living completely [35:59] conscious and connected? Has everything [36:01] shifted and changed?" [36:04] And you know, to quote the app, 10% [36:06] Happier, [36:08] my life has become 10% happier. [36:11] That incrementally as as I experience [36:15] life, the spaces of anxiety, the spaces [36:18] of self-esteem, the spaces of fear, of [36:21] doubt, of depression, of loneliness, [36:28] The experience of Torah and the [36:30] experience and fabric of the deeper [36:32] teachings of Torah has given me the [36:35] perception that I need to continue to [36:38] live life 10% happier. [36:41] And that means that all of those [36:43] energies that draw you down into the [36:46] prison stealth sense of self [36:49] start to unify and you start to [36:51] experience life in a calmer, more [36:54] tranquil space and state. [36:57] And from that space, you become more [36:59] forgiving, you become more connected, [37:02] you become more in tune. You become able [37:05] to see a holistic picture because we're [37:07] all part of something together [37:10] and we're not separated in ourselves. [37:12] And when I have that space of [37:14] consideration and perception, [37:17] Gevalt, it's the most life-changing [37:19] experience. [37:21] >> Amazing. So, you've talked about the big [37:24] questions we started off and wanted to [37:26] clarify the terms that are misnomers and [37:28] really expressed it all the way down [37:29] into your own life, your own [37:30] relationships. [37:32] All comes from this teaching. [37:33] Can you share one of the teachings? I [37:35] know they're endless. I know you've [37:36] given over thousands of tens of [37:38] thousands of hours and you write [37:40] beautifully and you've created apps. [37:43] And our listeners aren't going to [37:45] reserve you to this one teaching, but [37:47] just share one. Share some of the Torah [37:49] that you connect to from a mystical [37:50] perspective. [37:52] >> I'll share with you a teaching [37:54] which I think is so paradigmatic [37:56] for what we've been speaking about and [37:59] it's a teaching from Rav Eliyahu [38:01] Dessler, Michtav m'Eliyahu. [38:04] And he says, and I'll just translate it [38:06] straight into English. [38:08] He says that if a person wants to find [38:10] their inner world, [38:12] they need to have a prism of three [38:14] things. [38:16] The three things is bechiras ha'doar, [38:20] that a person needs to be able to [38:22] entertain an inner experience of life [38:26] that is not constantly reliant on [38:28] everything external to them, [38:31] but they're able to sit internally and [38:33] discover deeper sense and to give [38:35] themselves time to mature into that [38:38] space. [38:40] The second thing he says is to to strive [38:44] to give [38:46] rather than to take. [38:47] One of the hardest things to do in life, [38:50] be it as one engages within family, [38:54] society, people around them, [38:57] is to relinquish a constant state of [39:01] taking. [39:02] When a person experiences these moments [39:06] and experiences of giving, [39:09] it creates space within themselves and [39:12] that allows one to start understand that [39:14] there's a depth. And the final element [39:18] is that a person should yearn and strive [39:21] to be rather than to acquire [39:26] and to take, which is similar to the [39:28] second one, but it's different. In the [39:30] state of recognition that so many human [39:34] beings live their life of what is next, [39:37] what is tangible, what can I achieve, [39:40] what can I take, what can I acquire and [39:42] amass [39:44] into my sense of self. [39:46] But there's a revelation of self. [39:49] And that revelation is a state of being. [39:52] That when we can tap into a simple state [39:55] of being rather than doing, [39:59] an individual is able to discover who [40:01] they truly are. [40:02] >> Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, [40:04] to watch you over two decades discover [40:06] who you truly are has been an absolute [40:08] delight. Our friendship um has been [40:10] amazing and I just give you a blessing [40:12] that you're able to plumb each of those [40:14] three elements even deeper and deeper [40:16] and through that process that others [40:18] should be able to do that in their own [40:19] life because, you know, to think about [40:21] what you've achieved in your short years [40:23] in such a profound way is is inspiring [40:25] and I can't wait to see the decades [40:27] ahead of growth, of blessing, and all [40:29] you continue to give. [40:30] >> Amen. Thank you, Rabbi Benji. It's been [40:32] a pleasure. [40:32] >> Thank you.
