Transcript [00:00] Let's uh take a look at Michael Nolles [00:03] who is a Catholic commentator uh and [00:07] let's see how he understands Israel. The [00:09] Vatican in 1985 says, "The history of [00:11] Israel did not end in 70 AD. It [00:13] continued especially in a numerous [00:15] diaspora which allowed Israel to carry [00:16] to the whole world a witness often [00:17] heroic of its fidelity to the one God [00:19] and to exalt him in the presence of all [00:21] the living citing Tobat while preserving [00:23] the memory of the land of their [00:24] forefathers at the heart of their hope." [00:27] And the reference is the Passover seder. [00:28] So here the Vatican is writing not about [00:31] the the church as the new Israel, which [00:34] is what Christians have always held, but [00:35] is writing specifically about the [00:37] terrestrial and figurative Israel. I [00:40] Hey, awesome news. The the old Israel is [00:43] still the new Israel. We're still here. [00:46] We're not like we're still like it's not [00:48] the Old Testament, it's the Testament. [00:49] We're still here. We're still here. [00:51] We're still doing it. Hello. We're here. [00:52] I'm here. I'M ALIVE. I'M ALIVE. DON'T [00:55] FORGET ME. I'm here. Okay. So, I just [00:58] want to say when we talk about New [00:59] Israel, it's like [01:03] it's like, you know what it's like? It's [01:06] like when you go to Vegas and there's [01:08] like a whole uh uh casino which is based [01:11] on Paris and it's like this is Paris. [01:14] Well, no, but it's it's Paris in Vegas [01:17] really. It's not the real Paris. Like [01:18] the original Israel Israel, we're still [01:21] here. We're still very much here. I just [01:23] just want to say that [01:24] >> of the Jews. He's saying, you know, the [01:26] Jews went all about this world. They [01:27] didn't just end in 70 AD, and they've [01:29] carried this witness, which is often [01:31] very heroic, and they do have some [01:32] connection to the land. What? They they [01:35] do have some connection to the land. We [01:37] have awesome connection to the land, and [01:40] we're back in the land. Isn't that cool? [01:42] We are back in the land itself. Isn't [01:44] that cool? Because the Lord promised to [01:47] bring us back. You see, I love these [01:49] guys that they read stuff, but you don't [01:52] read the Bible. And and we all know that [01:54] sometimes [01:56] our our our our friends, the Catholics, [01:58] uh are not great Bible readers. And I [02:01] have a very very very good friend who's [02:03] Catholic. I'm not trying to hurt [02:05] anybody's feelings. I have more than one [02:07] friend who's Catholic, but I have one [02:08] very deep friend. He knows exactly who [02:09] he is. Uh but the bottom line is we have [02:12] a deep connection to land, an unbroken [02:14] connection to the land, and we're back [02:16] in the land because God wills it. That's [02:19] my problem with these theologians. They [02:21] keep talking of their own theology. They [02:23] keep not looking at to what God actually [02:25] wants. However, here's the key. [02:29] Christians are invited to understand [02:30] this religious attachment which finds [02:32] its roots in biblical tradition without [02:34] however making their own any particular [02:37] religious interpretation of this [02:38] relationship. And then just to [02:40] underscore the point [laughter] [02:43] >> uh it is kind of obvious that the Jews [02:45] have connection to the land but don't [02:47] like make it theological [02:49] because that would be a theological [02:51] theological problem of theology. Okay. [02:54] It's like [02:57] don't look here. I mean this thing is [02:59] something and they got this connection [03:01] but try just to not make it like [03:03] theological because that would be a [03:05] problem that we don't want to deal with. [03:07] You know what I'm saying? So let's not [03:09] talk about that [03:10] >> point. The existence of the state of [03:12] Israel and its political options should [03:14] be envisaged not in a perspective which [03:17] is in itself religious but in their [03:20] reference to the common principles of [03:21] international law. I've got a problem uh [03:25] assimilating this hard thing to do which [03:28] is when I read the Bible God says that [03:31] he will in gather the Jewish people land [03:33] of Israel and to assimilate that into my [03:37] theological reality is a problem and [03:39] therefore I will not think about that [03:42] and that's the way I will deal with it. [03:44] This is called the dig a hole and stick [03:47] your head in it the ostrich plan [03:50] theology. That is the way we'll deal [03:53] with it. We'll deal with it in terms of [03:55] international law, which is a non- [03:57] theological stick our head in the ground [03:59] way of thinking. Bingo. Love this. This [04:02] is exactly what the patriarchs are [04:04] reaffirming from Jerusalem. [04:05] >> Which patriarchs do you mean? Not my [04:08] patriarchs, buddy. My patriarchs are [04:11] reaffirming the Jewish people's rights [04:13] and connections to this land forever. [04:16] And it's totally right. And this is why [04:19] I would not call myself a Zionist. Uh, [04:21] or a Christian Zion. [04:24] >> You're not going to call yourself a [04:25] Zionist, Michael Nolles? I don't even [04:27] know who you are. You're not gonna call [04:29] yourself a Zionist. Well, I might I I [04:30] should just pack up this the stuff. [04:32] Forget the studio. CLOSE IT ALL DOWN. [04:33] Michael Nulls is not a Zionist. Michael [04:36] Nulls is not a [laughter] Zionist. [04:40] I don't call myself a Zionist. [04:43] Well, I might as well just just close up [04:45] shop then. Michael [04:47] >> or any other kind of Zionist. Uh it it's [04:49] not because I don't like the Jews and [04:50] it's not because I don't even support [04:52] the state of Israel. As I think I've [04:54] made clear, I am broadly supportive of [04:56] the nation state of Israel. [04:58] >> Well, thank you very much and I do [04:59] appreciate that. But I am broadly [05:01] supportive of it not because I believe [05:03] in the principles of Zionism which makes [05:05] certain historical claims and religious [05:07] claims that I just don't think are true. [05:09] I don't think that uh the [05:12] >> buddy just answer the following [05:14] question. Is this or is this not the in [05:17] gathering of the exiles? That's all you [05:19] have to answer. Theologically, [05:22] all you have to do is answer one simple [05:24] question. Is this or is this not the in [05:27] gathering of the exiles? By the way, I [05:29] asked that of everybody, Jews as well. I [05:31] I throw out to Jews that challenge as [05:33] well. Is this or is this not the in [05:36] gathering of the exiles? Michael Nolles. [05:39] >> The Jews are entitled to the Holy Land [05:41] because of some religious premise. I [05:44] don't think that's true. In fact, being [05:46] Christian, I believe that the Old [05:47] Testament is fulfilled in the New [05:48] Testament. Christ is the new covenant [05:50] and the full. [05:51] >> And what if the Jew is being engathered [05:53] is is is troublesome to your theology? [05:56] Will you just look away? Or will you ask [05:58] yourself, Michael Nullles, what is God [06:02] doing? [06:04] What is God doing? Because forget your [06:06] theology, forget all that kind of stuff. [06:09] Just ask yourself, is the God of the Old [06:12] Testament fulfilling his promises? [06:15] >> Fulfillment that, you know, everything [06:17] that was typified in the Old Testament [06:18] is fulfilled in Christ and the church as [06:20] the new and spiritual Israel. [06:23] >> And so when Israel comes around, it's a [06:24] problem right? [06:26] >> So I don't buy those religious premises. [06:27] And I don't believe just because a [06:29] people was on a on a plot of dirt 2,000 [06:32] years ago that that means they're [06:33] entitled to it today. That was the [06:35] dumbest thing that a theologian who [06:38] supposedly supposedly believes in the [06:40] Bible could say. I love when these [06:42] theologians are like, "And right now we [06:45] will p pause theology. I will not be [06:48] concerned with what God says. I will [06:50] skip over the Old Testament even though [06:52] it's part of my cannon and be like, "Oh, [06:54] I don't think that they deserve a plot [06:56] of land." Well, DID YOU READ THE BIBLE? [06:58] Michael Nolles the theologian. [07:02] You just sounded dumb, bro. I'm sorry to [07:04] hurt your feelings. I really I don't [07:05] mean to hurt your feelings and I don't [07:06] mean to say not nice things, but that [07:08] was just not that was a by your [07:10] admission a non- theological way of [07:12] looking at what is obviously a [07:14] theological moment. [07:17] So, you didn't win any, you know, I I I [07:20] take off points for that. If that were [07:22] the case, we'd have to turn the black [07:23] hills of, you know, we'd have to turn [07:24] Mount Rushmore over to the Lakota Sue. I [07:28] don't [07:28] >> Maybe you should. Maybe you should [07:30] believe any of that. And yet I am [07:33] broadly supportive of the nation state [07:34] of Israel because I don't like the [07:36] alternatives. I don't I don't like the [07:38] idea of giving Iran more power in the [07:40] Holy Land. I don't think the Muslims [07:42] have Oh, you think we're a front for [07:44] your fight for the West? That's what you [07:46] think? Maybe there's a truth in that. [07:48] Maybe there's a truth in that. Maybe we [07:50] can get along in that. But that doesn't [07:51] mean it's not our land and not our [07:53] biblical land, not our godly land. [07:55] >> Been particularly protective of the holy [07:57] sites. Sometimes they've been better [07:59] than others, but the Ottoman Empire [08:00] doesn't exist anymore. The the uh [08:03] current options in the Holy Land are not [08:05] great and we're not probably not [08:06] reestablishing Baldwin's kingdom anytime [08:08] soon. So, as a practical political [08:10] matter, then also on the point of [08:12] international law, the the Jews were [08:15] bequeathed some of this territory by the [08:18] British Empire, which had control of it [08:19] after the Ottoman Empire. And but why [08:21] did the British bequeath this land to [08:24] us? Why did that happen? because they [08:28] were Bible believing folks. They were [08:30] Christians like you, but not like you. [08:32] They believed that it was an imperative [08:34] to fulfill the will of the of the B of [08:36] the God of the Bible, which is to in [08:38] gather the Jewish people back home and [08:40] help them reestablish a nation state and [08:42] help rebuild that third temple and the [08:44] third temple commonwealth. But you don't [08:45] see that. That is what they saw. to make [08:48] it look like that the British [08:49] Commonwealth was all about some kind of [08:50] secular interest is to be blind and to [08:54] be theologically blind and to be [08:56] willfully theological blind which is [08:58] what you are doing uh through this [09:00] discourse. I mean and with your own [09:02] words you're saying I I'm tr choosing to [09:04] see this through a lens of non- [09:06] theology. It is very minimally [09:09] unsatisfying and unsatisfying to anybody [09:12] who's read the Bible. They then had a [09:14] declaration from the United Nations [09:16] purporting to advance international law [09:17] and they fought a war of conquest. So [09:20] any way you slice it, it seems to me [09:23] that according to the current nation [09:25] state system, they basically have a [09:26] right to it. But but crucially that is [09:28] >> and I and I appreciate that Michael [09:31] Nolles sees that the Jewish people have [09:33] rights. I do appreciate that. I do [09:35] appreciate that. You know, at least at [09:37] least from a secular point of view, he [09:39] can see the rights of Israel. That's [09:41] something not Zionism. And and and it [09:43] doesn't imply anything as a matter of [09:46] biblical prophecy for the modern nation [09:48] state. [09:50] >> What why would it you know the Jews [09:52] being a dispersed people for 2,000 years [09:55] being in gathered back into their land [09:57] and rebuilding Jerusalem? Nothing to see [09:59] here, folks. [laughter] [10:02] Don't look this way. This isn't the in [10:03] gathering of the exiles. Jerusalem is [10:05] not being rebuilt as prophesied. I don't [10:08] think this is the era of the third [10:09] temple. I don't think this is anything [10:11] but just a kinky dink not a theological [10:14] moment at all because if we admit that [10:17] it's a theological moment that could be [10:19] challenging and therefore I choose to [10:23] not [10:24] [laughter] [10:25] every moment of the world is godly [10:27] decreed except for this this is a [10:28] totally secular moment nothing to be [10:30] seen here Michael Nolles has a [10:34] theological he's got a theological like [10:36] impass and the way he deals with it is [10:38] by just going secular here for a minute, [10:41] not seeing the theological import, not [10:43] dealing, not wanting to deal with the [10:45] theological import of the rebirth of [10:47] Israel. Fascinating [10:48] >> of Israel. You can support Israel if you [10:53] want. You don't have to support the [10:54] nation state of Israel, but if you do, [10:55] you can do so without adhering to the [10:58] relatively novel theology of Christian [11:00] Zionism. It is a relatively novel [11:03] theology and it came through people who [11:05] really love the Bible and wanted to see [11:07] it come to fruition. Uh I agree with [11:09] you. It's relatively novel. It's 200 [11:11] years old. I agree with you. I agree [11:13] with you. Uh uh but it is actually [11:15] probably the finest form uh of that [11:18] religion because because it's the most [11:20] true to the Bible and to really God's [11:22] will. The most true. Uh uh not not in my [11:26] I am I am an Orthodox Jew. I'm not going [11:28] to be promoting Christianity here at [11:30] all. Uh but I do love my friends who see [11:33] the will of God as in gathering the [11:35] Jewish people to the land of Israel and [11:37] and here we agree very much. And we have [11:39] a deep love for one another. Really do. [11:41] Um that doesn't mean that I support [11:44] Christianity. I can't. I can't and I [11:46] won't. Uh but that doesn't mean I don't [11:48] support them. I do and I will and I will [11:50] stand up for my Christian Zionist [11:51] friends strong and I will support their [11:54] efforts to find the truth in theology. [11:57] And certainly the the real conflict is [12:00] between, you know, somebody else's [12:02] theology or really trying to understand [12:04] what God wants from me. God, what does [12:06] God want us to do? And I'm so impressed [12:09] with them for fighting instead of what [12:11] Michael Nolles is doing, which is like I [12:12] don't want to fight. I don't want to [12:14] fight with uh with my theology. I I I [12:17] I'm going to have to, you know, I'm [12:18] going to have to look God in the face [12:20] and say, "Hey, you're not behaving [12:22] according to my theology." And so [12:24] therefore, I got to say that no, it's [12:27] not you. It's just international law. [12:30] And so, I don't find this to be [12:31] courageous, and I don't find it to be [12:33] intellectually honest. I don't find it [12:35] to be biblically honest. And I don't [12:37] find it to be um satisfying I from their [12:42] perspective. You know, certainly from a [12:44] Jewish perspective, it's not satisfying. [12:45] But at least, again, Michael knows, at [12:47] least he recognizes Jewish rights in the [12:50] land. And I appreciate that. [12:51] >> You can like the Jews. I love the Jews. [12:53] I grew up in New York. I'm very [12:55] phosetic. Okay. I like If you told me if [12:58] I [12:58] >> Thank you very much, Michael. I [12:59] appreciate that. And I know what you [13:00] mean about New York. You're absolutely [13:02] right. [13:02] >> Had to make a choice between hanging out [13:05] and eating a pastrami sandwich with the [13:07] guys who make pastrami sandwiches and [13:08] eating schwarma with the guys who make [13:10] schwarma. I'm taking the pastrami [13:12] sandwich. [13:13] >> Bro, we make pastrami sandwiches in New [13:15] York and schwarma in Israel. You got to [13:17] come hang out with us and have schwarma [13:19] in Israel. You can have the best of both [13:20] worlds, baby. Oh my god. You don't know [13:22] this about the Jews. You see how much he [13:24] doesn't know, Michael? He doesn't know [13:25] about our great schwarma making skills. [13:28] How can you understand the Bible and [13:29] God's will if you've never had schwarma [13:31] in Jerusalem for God's sakes, Michael? [13:33] You you you know, you can't be having [13:35] crackers on Sunday and thinking that [13:37] that's the ultimate food here. Okay? You [13:39] got to come to Israel and have some [13:40] schwarma, bro. You're going to feel [13:42] amazing here. And we have pastrami. But [13:44] you're right, pastrami is better in New [13:46] York. But come have the schwarma here in [13:47] the land of Israel. you'll see we like [13:49] mix Middle East with with with the [13:52] classic Jewish thing. It's it's just [13:54] awesome and and culturally and and and [13:57] biblically theologically fulfilling 100 [13:59] out of 100 times. Okay, maybe 999 out of [14:03] a thousand times. I'm going with the [14:04] pastrami sandwich. You can you can be [14:06] phositic and not adhere to the [14:09] relatively novel ideology of Christian [14:10] Zionism. [14:11] >> But you know what's not a relatively [14:12] novel ideology? [14:15] the biblical promise that God is going [14:18] to end gather the exiles. That's not [14:20] Christian Zionism. That's biblical [14:22] Zionism. And to just just look away [14:25] there is just not intellectually [14:28] curious, deep, theologically uh [14:31] consistent. And it's not a matter of [14:33] that Christian Zionist is 200 years old. [14:35] That's not even a matter of Zionism, [14:37] which is, you know, you could say it's a [14:38] new phenomenon, political Zionism. It's [14:41] the will of God, which is so so old. [14:43] It's the promise that God gave Abram [14:46] before he was Abraham in the in the in [14:48] the covenant between the parts. You got [14:50] to read that so-called Old Testament. I [14:52] rather call it the Old E, you know, with [14:54] the E the end old testament. Like that's [14:56] the cool one. I don't know. But we [14:57] believe that, you know, the Torah is the [14:59] original and eternal true uh testament. [15:02] Uh and its promises are being fulfilled [15:06] no matter what theological problems [15:08] Michael knows has. That's that's clearly [15:12] what the patriarchs of uh Jerusalem are [15:14] saying. And who's this? Do you know do [15:17] you know about our patriarchs? They were [15:19] also in Jerusalem. You know what [15:20] patriarch was in Jerusalem? Abraham. He [15:23] uh almost sacrificed his son Isaac in [15:25] Jerusalem. That's where the site of the [15:26] first temple is was. That's the site of [15:29] the second temple. That is the site of [15:31] where the third temple will be soon. [15:33] Michael Nolles, I'm just giving you a [15:35] theological memo. [15:38] theological memo from Jerusalem to [15:40] Michael. [15:41] >> Anyone suggesting that this is an I [15:43] don't know a break with tradition or [15:46] anti-semitic or anything like that I [15:48] think is just totally insane. [15:51] >> Okay, Michael Nullles, thank you very [15:52] much for joining us uh and giving us [15:55] your theological perspectives. I hope [15:56] that you were able to hear my my [15:58] critique right back to you. All right, [16:00] folks. God bless you wherever you are. [16:01] Thank you so much for being with me. [16:03] Don't forget to like, subscribe. Do it [16:05] right now. 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