Transcript [00:00] October 7th set in motion a process that [00:03] has led so much of the world to be [00:05] passionately anti-Israel and then [00:07] there's those who have to choose to be [00:09] defenders of Israel and October 7th [00:11] really forced that issue for many people [00:13] and I couldn't help but think that maybe [00:16] that's part of why October 7th happened [00:19] on Sukkot that this was the that [00:21] something major was going to change in [00:23] our history that was going to bring this [00:24] to the forefront and challenge everyone. [00:26] Welcome to this episode of [00:28] Shouldertoshoulder, a podcast where a [00:29] pastor and a rabbi get to the heart of [00:31] issues that matter to people of faith. [00:33] I'm Pastor Doug Reid here with my friend [00:35] Rabbi Pesak Wiki. And on this episode, [00:38] we're going to be having a conversation [00:39] about Zechariah 14 as we are in the [00:42] midst of the high holy days. But before [00:44] we jump into that conversation, please [00:46] like, rate, share, uh come on over to [00:49] Facebook, do all the things that you do [00:51] cuz we want to connect with our [00:52] shoulder-to-shoulder family. We want you [00:54] to join our shoulder-to-shoulder [00:55] community group where you get to [00:56] interact with Peso and me all week long. [00:59] The best way to support this podcast is [01:00] to go on over to Patreon, subscribe to [01:02] our shoulder-to-shoulder page. For just [01:04] $10 a month, you'll get exclusive access [01:06] to chapterby chapter Bible study [01:08] beginning in Genesis chapter 1 from [01:10] Rabbi Peso and myself. So, go on over to [01:12] Patreon, subscribe to [01:13] Shouldertoshoulder, and you will have [01:16] access to those. you'll be helping us [01:19] support uh you'll be helping to support [01:21] this podcast through Patreon. We so [01:23] appreciate all of our Patreon [01:25] subscribers. We're grateful for our [01:27] sponsor, Israel 365 News, which is the [01:29] place for you to go and get your news [01:31] and information before going to anyone [01:32] else. Go on over to israel365news.com [01:36] to check out some of their articles and [01:38] be sure to read Rabbi Peso in my weekly [01:41] column. Peso, Israel 365 has incredible [01:45] products and offers each and every week. [01:46] What are we supporting today? [01:49] >> Well, we are right in the midst of the [01:52] festival season. Sukkot is starting in a [01:55] couple of days. So, we are still going [01:56] to be encouraging people to give to the [01:58] Israel 365 charity campaign to help [02:02] needy families get through this [02:04] expensive and joyous holiday season. [02:06] Let's really give them the joy. Let's [02:08] make sure that the kids sitting around [02:09] those tables don't feel cheated. They [02:11] don't feel like they're having less than [02:13] others. we can make a big difference in [02:15] their holiday joy. Uh you know the Bible [02:18] tells us that we must rejoice on these [02:20] festivals especially Sukkot is a call [02:22] for great joy and uh you know we are [02:25] stepping up to the plate providing uh [02:27] large food boxes to needy families and [02:30] also arranging a really nice festive [02:33] meals for some uh families that that we [02:35] can make those arrangements for. So [02:37] please uh help us out here. you know, [02:39] throw a couple nickels in the bucket uh [02:41] at the link in the description of this [02:43] video or go to israel365charity.com [02:46] and scroll down to the current projects. [02:47] We have the holiday uh feeding project [02:50] there. [02:51] So important. Please stop by and do [02:54] that. Pesak, how was Yam Kapor? How was [02:57] your day of fasting? Was it meaningful? [02:59] Did you uh go for early prayers, later [03:02] prayers? How did how did it work with [03:03] your family? [03:05] >> Well, you know, it was fine. It it was [03:07] uh it was an interesting one for me [03:08] because this was the last year that I'm [03:11] going to be in that synagogue that I've [03:13] been in for uh for a very long time [03:15] because my family is relocating to [03:18] Ashkalon from Beth Sheamesh after 20 [03:20] plus years in Beamesh and uh we're going [03:23] to be relocating before next Yom Kipur. [03:26] So it was a little bit emotional for me [03:27] being with my you know with my friends [03:29] for yonipur even though I'll keep seeing [03:31] them every Shabbat for the next uh the [03:33] next few months but it was it was a [03:35] little bit emotional in that respect. Uh [03:38] the fast went very well. I listen I love [03:41] yonipur. We've talked about this in the [03:42] past. I know that sounds crazy to [03:44] people. What you're fasting and praying [03:45] all day you're on your feet. It's an [03:46] exhausting day. That is true. There's a [03:49] difference between joy and uh happiness. [03:52] Those are two different or I should say [03:54] pleasure and and happiness are two [03:56] different things. It is not a [03:57] pleasurable day. It is the opposite of a [03:59] pleasurable day. But it is so [04:02] meaningful. I just love the spiritual [04:04] place that I get to. I love our liturgy. [04:06] I love the journey that it takes us on. [04:09] And I have to say that I spent no small [04:12] amount of my mental energy. I couldn't [04:14] help myself thinking about [04:17] you being with me and what this would [04:19] look like through your eyes. I was [04:21] already anticipating different aspects [04:23] of the service where where it might oh [04:24] you know you know Doug might find this [04:26] interesting Doug might find that [04:27] interesting this is going to be [04:28] interesting to explain. So, I was [04:30] already anticipating that. I've already [04:32] decided which which version of the of [04:34] the Yomipur uh liturgy, the prayer book, [04:37] what's called a makzor. It's like the [04:38] seed a special cedur for yum kipur. I [04:41] already decided which edition I'm going [04:42] to buy for us to use. So, mentally I was [04:46] already preparing for next year. And [04:47] lastly, I was given a great honor this [04:50] year. We're going to talk it. It'll come [04:51] up a bit in our conversation, but one of [04:54] the notable rituals on Yum Kipur is that [04:57] in the afternoon service [05:00] as part of the service, besides doing a [05:02] short Torah reading, we also read the [05:05] entire book of Jonah. [05:08] It's not a very long book. It's four [05:09] short chapters. And I was given the [05:11] honor this year of reading the book of [05:13] Jonah, which is considered a really [05:15] significant honor. And uh I don't know [05:17] if they did that because it's my last [05:18] year. I'd never gotten it before in that [05:20] synagogue, but it was really nice to be [05:22] able to read the book of Jonah. And I [05:24] have some insights on the book of Jonah. [05:25] I think it's uh I think it's I think [05:27] it's an important book and and re and [05:29] like why we read it on Yum Kipur and I [05:31] think it's also relevant to Sukkot which [05:33] immediately follows it. [05:35] Interesting. And is there anything you [05:37] do in preparation to fast? I know when [05:40] I'm going to fast for a day, I usually [05:42] try and drink about 30 ounces of water [05:45] with some electrolytes the night before [05:47] because you do you end up tired the next [05:49] day, especially not eating and not [05:51] drinking on Yamapour. So, it's not uh [05:53] because a typical fast you can have [05:55] water, but this is no water, no food for [05:58] 24, 25 hours. Is there anything you do [06:01] physically to prepare your body for the [06:03] fast? [06:04] >> Personally, no. I mean other than I I [06:07] eat the day before and sure there's a [06:10] Jewish tradition of eating more on the [06:13] day before yonipur to have extra [06:14] strength through yonipur but personally [06:16] I'm thank god god has blessed me I'm a [06:19] very good faster it it barely affects me [06:22] I'm a little bit tired by the end of the [06:24] day I'm not even all that hungry uh so [06:26] I'm a good faster so I don't really do [06:28] much preparation I was busy with my [06:30] normal my normal routine making some [06:32] videos talking to people I was calling [06:34] friends and and you know asking asking [06:35] forgiveness for things that I've done [06:37] for them, you know, done to them during [06:38] the year, which is a big tradition. But [06:40] no, I didn't do anything uh I didn't do [06:42] anything to prepare for the fast [06:43] particularly. [06:45] >> Gotcha. And we want to talk about [06:47] Zechariah 14, but part of my weekend I [06:51] spent in Kansas with Pastor Steven Luna, [06:55] who if you haven't gotten to meet him [06:56] yet, he's newer to the Eagle's Wings [06:58] ecosystem. Uh he went to Israel for the [07:01] first time in 2024. [07:03] And honestly, his church was kind of at [07:06] the same spot Bridge of Hope was at in [07:09] 2017, 2016 when I got back from my first [07:11] trip. He's excited. He's trying to [07:13] figure out how to navigate uh the Israel [07:16] piece. And so he had me in. I shared [07:19] Sunday morning and was there with him [07:21] all weekend. There was a men's [07:22] conference. I got to meet a bunch of [07:24] pastors. But then the best part was we [07:26] had a small little lunchon after service [07:30] where people he just opened up for 2 [07:32] hours and people just asked questions [07:34] and it was fascinating. Some of the [07:37] questions I'm like, "Okay, yeah, I knew [07:39] that one was coming." The various ones [07:41] and you get the similar questions every [07:44] church you travel to. [07:45] >> And I just so enjoyed there were several [07:48] young people and and young adults that [07:49] attended, college students, and they [07:52] were, you know, I got a few of the Tik [07:54] Tok questions, a few of the and it [07:55] wasn't contentious. They genuinely were [07:57] seeking uh to understand. And so it was [08:01] I felt like it was really really rich [08:02] and really really good. I would love to [08:05] do that at every church I go to. It was [08:06] very fun conversation and discussion. [08:10] >> You know, this is this is a really [08:11] interesting journey that you guys are on [08:13] because while you're traveling America [08:16] and speaking in different churches every [08:17] Sunday for the next, you know, 6 months [08:19] or so, [08:20] >> and you're doing it in order to drum up [08:22] support for your family's journey to [08:24] Israel. [08:25] >> That that might be the the motivation [08:27] and the kind of organizational reason [08:29] why you're doing it. But at the same [08:31] time, you're basically out there [08:34] evangelizing the Israel cause and out [08:36] there [08:37] >> answering questions, [08:39] >> you know, doing husbar, as we say. [08:41] You're out there doing this. And I I was [08:42] thinking about that that you're you're [08:43] going all all these different churches [08:44] and there are different points in the [08:46] journey. For some of them, it's all [08:47] brand new. Others are veteran Christian [08:50] Zionist churches. [08:52] So, when you're out there and you're [08:54] having this Q&A about what you just [08:56] talked about, and I'm sure you laid out [08:57] some of the theology, can you share with [08:58] us maybe one or two of the notable [09:01] questions or or points of discussion? [09:02] What were the things that were that were [09:06] bothering these people? The number one [09:09] question, I've gotten it, I want to say [09:12] at every church, even in passing at our [09:14] table. The number one question, pastor, [09:16] how do we support the nation state of [09:19] Israel when they're they're the [09:22] Christian mind is like they're not [09:24] perfect? They're not doing everything. [09:26] And if this is God's chosen people, how [09:28] could they not be perfect? And there's [09:31] that that element theologically where [09:33] they're expecting, well, if God's picked [09:35] them and God's anointed them and God's [09:37] chosen them, then obviously they should [09:39] be conducting themselves uh perfectly [09:42] and they're not. And uh you know, and [09:44] you you do get into uh some of the the [09:46] nuances with that. And then then it's [09:48] like, well, you know, they they they [09:50] don't believe in Jesus, so how can they [09:52] be chosen? You get some of that, but [09:53] really the question I get repeatedly is [09:55] how can how can we support the modern [09:57] nation state of Israel when they're not [09:58] perfect? And my rebuttal to that is I [10:02] will ask a question. When in all of [10:04] scripture was Israel ever perfect? I [10:08] mean there's 20 21 kings. I I only think [10:12] a couple of them are called good. A few [10:15] of them had, you know, altars built to [10:18] Baal and Asharoth and and all sorts of [10:20] stuff. And God still called them his in [10:23] the midst of that. He may have had to [10:24] discipline, may have had to do that. So, [10:26] I don't think uh perfection is what [10:28] we're after. And so, then you start to [10:30] shift uh you know, the conversation and [10:32] and the argument with that. But that's [10:34] one I get repeatedly is, well, you know, [10:37] they support, you know, they did that [10:38] big gay pride parade down in the Dead [10:41] Sea. Like, how can we as Christians say [10:43] that they're God's chosen people when [10:45] they uh you know, don't fall into a a [10:49] biblical ethic in in that sense? And you [10:51] and I have talked about that a bit on [10:53] the podcast, but that's that's a real [10:55] question that I've gotten at just about [10:57] every church I've been at. And I think [10:59] you get the typical ones. You get some [11:01] of the Christian esquetology ones that [11:03] you anticipate. You get the Jesus [11:05] question, of course. You get the the [11:08] dynamics. I actually got a couple uh [11:11] recently on, you know, can can [11:14] Christians worship freely in Israel? cuz [11:17] I've seen on TikTok that, you know, they [11:19] just they they get spit on or they're [11:21] they're not allowed to to worship and, [11:24] you know, doesn't Israel not uh let [11:27] Christians do X, Y, and Z? And I'm like, [11:29] I [11:31] the first time I got asked, I was like, [11:33] I mean, I've been there nine times and [11:35] uh you know, I I've never experienced [11:37] that at all. Like, we we're everywhere [11:40] we are celebrated and welcomed and all [11:42] of that. I said, "We've gone and prayed [11:44] with uh Christian churches in the land. [11:46] We've been with Pastor Corey's church in [11:48] East Jerusalem. We've been uh in [11:50] different spots." And and so I'm able to [11:52] from personal experience kind of answer [11:54] that uh in a way that's uh disarming. [11:57] But it's interesting to see the [11:58] narratives that are bothering people. [12:01] But that those two are kind of typical [12:03] in the modern sense. And then you get [12:05] the whole barrage of theology uh that [12:07] comes out. People are asking questions. [12:09] Uh you we ended up in Zechariah 14 [12:12] actually uh in Kansas cuz they were [12:14] asking an esqueatological question, you [12:16] know, how how do Jews see the the end [12:19] times cuz you know most Christians see [12:21] it this way, this way and this way and [12:23] we have these kind of couple of options [12:24] and you know what do they see? And I [12:27] said well it's Zechariah 14. We're [12:29] coming up uh on the feast of Sukkot and [12:33] here it is. And I I think part of that [12:35] is uh you know Christians are they they [12:39] want to and I think that's the thing [12:41] I've been so encouraged about. [12:42] Christians want to [12:45] get the Israel peace and want to [12:47] support. I have not run into uh a ton of [12:51] animosity. I've I've gotten the hard [12:54] questions. I've gotten the political [12:56] questions. But by and large people want [12:59] to believe the biblical narrative. And [13:02] when they're presented with that on in [13:03] the Christian sense and the churches [13:05] I've been in uh it's been o overwhelming [13:08] young old in between uh people have been [13:10] very receptive to uh the dialogue and uh [13:14] the debate even if they don't like the [13:16] answer fully they appreciate the [13:18] biblical narrative and have I've walked [13:20] away encouraged. Well, Doug, next time [13:23] you get that question about Israel not [13:25] being perfect, what I would do is turn [13:27] them to Leviticus chapter 26 [13:31] at the, you know, Leviticus chapter 26 [13:33] has uh it's the first time where God [13:36] lays out all the punishments and the [13:38] curses that will befall the nation of [13:39] Israel as a result of their sins. And I [13:42] just want to read you right towards the [13:44] end of it just a few verses here. But if [13:47] they confess their iniquity, and I'm [13:49] picking it up at verse 40, and the [13:50] iniquity of their fathers with their [13:52] unfaithfulness, in which they were [13:54] unfaithful to me, and that they also had [13:57] walked contrary to me, and that I have [13:59] also walked contrary to them, and have [14:01] brought them into the land of their [14:02] enemies, if their uncircumcised hearts [14:05] are humbled, and if they accept their [14:07] guilt, then I will remember my covenant [14:10] with Jacob, my covenant with Isaac, my [14:11] covenant with Abraham, I will remember. [14:13] I will remember the land. The land also [14:16] shall be left empty by them and will [14:18] enjoy its Sabbaths when it lies desolate [14:20] without them. They will accept their [14:23] guilt because they despised my judgments [14:25] and because their soul abhored my [14:26] statutes. Yet [14:29] for all that, when they are in the land [14:32] of their enemies, I will not cast them [14:34] away, nor shall I abhore them to utterly [14:37] destroy them and break my covenant with [14:39] them. For I am the Lord their God. [14:42] >> Amen. In other words, God is saying here [14:45] the nation of Israel, there's no [14:48] expectation that even in our repentance [14:50] that ends the, you know, the in the uh [14:52] that we're going to become perfect. The [14:55] only expectation is that we accept [14:58] responsibility for what we've done, that [15:00] we accept our guilt, that we don't deny [15:02] it, that we don't walk away from it. So, [15:05] you could point them to I mean, you'll [15:07] experience it when you join me for Yam [15:09] Kipur. We spend the entire day talking [15:10] about how guilty we are. [15:12] I mean that's like half the liturgy on [15:14] Yum Kipur is how guilty we actually are [15:16] and how unworthy we are of this [15:18] relationship. [15:20] >> Wow. [15:20] >> God demands that of us. But he does not [15:22] demand us to be perfect. And he says [15:24] right there, even with everything that [15:25] they've done, [15:27] so long as they accept what they've done [15:29] wrong, so long as they express remorse, [15:31] I will not break my covenant, they are [15:33] still my people. I'll remember them and [15:35] I'll and I'll redeem them. God says that [15:37] right there. So, you could open up [15:38] Leviticus 26 and show them and say, [15:40] "Listen, this is how God operates with [15:42] his people." Uh, and you know, God has [15:44] plans for the the nation of Israel. It's [15:46] not about us being perfect. Thank God [15:48] for that. [15:50] >> Yeah. Well, and I I've had one or two as [15:52] I've said that, you know, they're like, [15:54] "But but and I go, oh, and I forgot the [15:56] church has been so perfect." Like, you [15:59] know, in that sense, like, you want to [16:01] go down our our history and track [16:02] record? It's not great. and and that [16:05] usually lets the point sink in further. [16:07] And you believe that God hasn't cast us [16:10] away. So, you know, there has to be room [16:12] for for growth and and all that. And [16:15] it's not that uh the nation state of [16:17] Israel is perfect. Uh we wouldn't have a [16:18] podcast if they they were we, you know, [16:21] we spend our time talking through all of [16:23] the issues. And so, uh but yes, it was [16:25] very fruitful and I very much enjoyed uh [16:28] getting to do that. and a couple of [16:30] churches coming up are going to have us [16:31] do some Q&A and different stuff outside [16:34] of the normal service time and I I think [16:35] that's going to be very fruitful and I'm [16:37] going to enjoy that space. [16:39] >> Awesome. So, I wanted to talk about [16:40] Zechariah 14 if we could pivot to that. [16:43] >> Let's do it [16:43] >> because you know it's Sukkot is upon us. [16:47] Uh and at the end of next week, a week [16:49] and a half from now, I'm going to be [16:51] spending uh Shabbat, actually the last [16:54] day of of the Feast of Tabernacles, the [16:56] last day of Sukkot, which is the on the [16:58] Hebrew calendar the anniversary of also [17:00] of also of October 7th. But I'm going to [17:02] be spending that day with over 300 [17:05] members, uh 300 participants in the Big [17:07] Eagles Wings trip, mostly pastors and [17:09] leaders from around the world. I've been [17:11] told that there's going to be some [17:12] simultaneous translation for a number of [17:14] them in Portuguese and Spanish. It's [17:17] going to be uh [17:18] >> so I'm going to be with them uh at a [17:20] hotel in Jerusalem. [17:22] >> And I was thinking about this whole [17:24] >> team is already there. Some of the [17:25] Eagles Wings team is already there. [17:26] >> So for this big trip, [17:28] >> I think some of them are visiting our [17:29] office at Israel 365 tomorrow actually. [17:33] >> Probably Matt Crouch and a few others. [17:34] Yeah. So I I was thinking about this [17:37] experience I'm about to be having and [17:39] about the significance of Christians [17:40] coming here at this time [17:43] and I wanted to read just to frame the [17:46] conversation by first reading the end of [17:48] the book of Zechariah in Zechariah [17:50] chapter 14 which the beginning of the [17:53] chapter is is pretty violent. It's about [17:57] the wars at the end times, about the [18:00] nations who come to battle against [18:02] Jerusalem [18:04] and about people being taken into [18:06] captivity. [18:08] It's pretty vicious, you know, like uh [18:10] some of the verses like the Lord will go [18:12] forth and fight against the nations as [18:13] he fights the day of battle and that's [18:16] where we have, you know, the Mount of [18:18] Olives comes into play. I don't want to [18:19] read the entire thing, but then when we [18:21] get towards the end, it says, [18:27] "The people shall dwell in it." I'm in [18:28] verse 11, "And no longer shall there be [18:31] utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall [18:33] be safely inhabited." [18:35] Very nice. [18:37] Jumping ahead now, verse 16. [18:41] And it shall come to pass that everyone [18:44] who was left of all the nations which [18:46] came against Jerusalem shall go up from [18:49] year to year to worship the king, the [18:51] Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of [18:53] tabernacles, Sukkot. And it shall be [18:56] that whichever of the families of the [18:57] earth do not come up to Jerusalem to [18:59] worship the king, the Lord of hosts, on [19:01] them there will be no rain. If the [19:03] family of Egypt will not come up and [19:05] enter in, they shall have no rain. They [19:06] shall receive the plague with which the [19:08] Lord strikes the nations who do not come [19:11] to keep the feast of tabernacles. This [19:14] shall be the punishment of Egypt and the [19:16] punishment of all the nations who do not [19:17] come up to keep the feast of [19:20] tabernacles. [19:21] And there's no explanation given by [19:25] Zachchariah for why the feast of [19:28] tabernacles, and I want to be very clear [19:29] here, this isn't just an invitation [19:32] to the nations to keep the feast of [19:34] tabernacles. It's a command. [19:37] >> I mean it Zechariah is pretty clear that [19:40] at some point in the future when the [19:42] nation of Israel is restored and these [19:43] battles uh have taken place that the [19:46] nations are called [19:49] to Jerusalem and it's it seems to be a [19:52] measure of their obedience. Those who [19:54] don't come are punished for not coming. [19:55] Those who do come [19:57] >> and we can view this as somewhat [19:59] metaphorical in terms of you know what [20:01] is the theme here? What is being talked [20:02] about? We're talking about an end times [20:04] prophecy and when exactly does it come [20:06] into effect? I'm not here to say that [20:08] every single, you know, Christian around [20:10] the world should, you know, should feel [20:12] that they're going to get punished if [20:13] they don't come to Jerusalem for the [20:14] Feast of Tabernacles. This is about [20:15] nations. [20:17] But what is this about? So again, [20:20] Zechariah gives no explanation [20:21] whatsoever for why of all the festivals, [20:24] the Feast of Tabernacles uh is incumbent [20:27] upon the nations of the world to come to [20:29] Jerusalem. I was thinking about that a [20:31] lot about the fact that there are tens [20:33] of thousands of Christians who do come [20:35] every year for Sukkot. The Eagles Wings [20:37] event that's taking place is only one of [20:38] many events. Uh the International [20:40] Christian Embassy of Jerusalem does a [20:42] very large event with representatives [20:44] from all over the world. [20:45] >> Parade I've seen a huge parade. A [20:47] massive parade. Yeah. [20:49] >> Massive parade through the streets of [20:50] Jerusalem where delegations of of [20:53] Christians from different countries wave [20:55] their national flags. So people in [20:57] Jerusalem line the streets and they [20:59] watch this parade go by of of Christian [21:01] supporters of Israel who are joining the [21:04] nation of Israel on on the feast of [21:06] tabernacles in fulfillment of Zechariah [21:08] 14. And for the Jewish listeners, you [21:10] should know that that's why a lot of [21:12] these Christians are coming at the time [21:13] they're coming. I know that when I used [21:14] to work for for CJCU [21:18] for Ortor Stone, every year I would [21:21] speak to a large group. We're talking 3 [21:23] 400 [21:25] uh Christians from Africa from various [21:27] African nations who would you know that [21:30] was just one of the st you know groups [21:32] that would pass through our center in [21:34] Ephrad every year and I would speak to [21:35] them it was always around it was always [21:37] on Sukkot so why Sukkot that's what I [21:40] wanted to explore a little bit with you [21:41] Doug [21:43] so [21:45] let's start with a with a sharp contrast [21:48] while Zachariah is telling the nations [21:51] that they're supposed to be making the [21:53] pilgrimage to Jerusalem for Sukkot. So [21:56] we could say, okay, the Jews have three [21:57] pilgrimage festivals. The Gentiles have [22:00] one feast of tabernacles. And it's a [22:03] wakeup call for Jews, too. Understand [22:04] that in, you know, when the temple is [22:07] rebuilt and we're making our pilgrimage [22:08] to Jerusalem for Sukkot, we're going to [22:10] be vastly outnumbered hopefully by these [22:14] millions and millions of pilgrims from [22:16] around the world who will be joining us. [22:20] But the contrast I want to point out is [22:21] with Passover [22:23] because [22:25] the Bible explicitly states when giving [22:27] the laws of Passover of the Passover [22:30] lamb offering that is it's not really an [22:32] offering because it it's kind of an [22:34] offering but it's eaten by the family. [22:36] Everyone eats a piece of it. It's not [22:38] like uh it's not burned on the altar. [22:41] It's a so it's kind of an offering. But [22:43] that Passover offering, [22:46] it's explicitly states in Hebrew [22:50] that anyone who is not a member of the [22:52] nation of Israel may not eat of it. It's [22:54] a very particularistic festival. [22:58] And then here on the other end of the [22:59] spectrum, not only are we not excluding [23:02] the Gentiles as we did on Passover, but [23:04] we're telling them that they're supposed [23:05] to be participating. So just to set that [23:07] up, like what is [23:10] what is this? So to keep a very long [23:13] story very short just to get down to [23:17] to get us back to Zechariah 14. Passover [23:20] is about the birth of the nation. It is [23:22] particularistic. It's about separating [23:25] us out of Egypt and being chosen by God [23:27] to be his people. We're born as a people [23:29] on Passover. Shàuot Pentecost [23:34] which is connected to Passover. It [23:37] doesn't even have its own date in the [23:38] Bible. it it's simply 50 days after the [23:42] first day of Passover. [23:45] Um, and that and so there's that obvious [23:48] direct connection to it. And that is [23:51] really what the extension of the Exodus [23:53] of Egypt is, which is it commemorates [23:55] the date of the revelation of the Torah [23:58] on Sinai, the covenant of law, when God [24:01] enters into this contract, this covenant [24:02] with his nation Israel, basically giving [24:04] them their mission, giving us our [24:06] marching orders. What are we supposed to [24:08] do? So Passover, we're born as a people. [24:12] On Pentecost, Shàuote, we're given our [24:14] task and our mission. [24:18] And think about the events. Passover [24:21] commemorates the Exodus from Egypt. [24:22] Yeah, there should be a holiday for [24:24] that. Shàuot commemorates the covenant [24:26] at Sinai. There should be a holiday for [24:28] that. What's the event commemorated by [24:30] Sukkot? [24:32] Oh, God says because you because you [24:35] lived in makeshift huts, [24:38] >> so you're going to have a festival. I [24:40] mean, there's no festival commemorating [24:42] the mana we ate for 40 years that came [24:44] down from heaven. There's no festival [24:46] commemorating the water that flowed from [24:48] a rock, but suddenly we have a festival [24:51] because we lived in makeshift huts that [24:53] play no role in any plot point in the [24:57] entire story of the 40 years in the [24:58] desert. The only time they're mentioned [25:00] is when we're told about the festival. [25:01] It's very strange that we have this [25:04] festival. What exactly does it [25:05] commemorate? [25:07] And [25:09] what's also interesting about Sukkot is [25:11] that is the the offerings that were [25:13] brought in the temple because on all [25:15] other festival days either one or two [25:18] bulls is brought as part of the festival [25:20] offering on behalf of the entire people [25:22] like by the priests in the temple. And [25:25] some again some festivals are one, some [25:27] are two. I'm not going to get into the [25:28] weeds of that [25:30] except for suko [25:34] meaning we're talking about Passover uh [25:36] we're talking about Pentecost we're [25:37] talking about rash shana yonipur [25:39] whatever it is there's always one or two [25:40] bulls that are brought but on sukkot 70 [25:44] bulls [25:46] are offered as offerings in the temple [25:50] over the course of the seven days not 10 [25:53] a day they're done in descending order [25:54] 13 12 11 10 9 87. That's how they're [25:58] brought. [25:59] >> Interesting. [26:00] >> 70. And the tradition in Judaism, and [26:03] we've talked about this before, the [26:04] number 70 represents in in biblical [26:06] terms, it represents the nations of the [26:08] world. So these are these are these are [26:10] offerings that are being brought on [26:11] behalf of the nations of the world. [26:14] So there's something obviously [26:16] universalistic about Sukkot. [26:20] It's different. Zechariah is telling the [26:23] nations, "You better come for Sukkot." [26:26] Again, it's not an invitation. It's not [26:28] a polite invitation. It's a warning. You [26:30] better be on board with Sukkot. [26:34] And [26:36] I've talked about Zechariah 14 many [26:38] times, especially as it relates to the [26:41] type of work that I do and especially [26:43] whenever I speak to Christians like [26:44] these African Christians I would speak [26:46] to every year on Sukode. I've always I [26:48] always talk about Zechariah 14, but I'd [26:50] never really drilled down on the fact [26:53] that it's a test. [26:55] >> I always make it seem like more like an [26:57] invitation like yes, you know, on [26:59] Sukkot, you all join us. It's the house [27:01] of prayer for all nations, but it's [27:02] actually a test, [27:04] right? That's why I read that passage at [27:06] the beginning of this conversation. [27:09] Like those who don't come up will be [27:10] punished, those who do won't be. And I [27:12] was putting that in in context of of [27:16] what we're living through now because if [27:18] we are and we are I believe we are I [27:22] think we all I think you have to be [27:23] blind not to know that we are living [27:25] through the era of the in gathering of [27:27] the nation of Israel to our land [27:30] >> and the nations of the world are being [27:32] >> I think it's projected Pesak in just a [27:35] few short years there should be more [27:37] Jews in Israel than outside of Israel [27:39] for the first time in a long time. Oh [27:41] yeah. Yeah. [27:43] >> It's it's huge. And from a Jewish law [27:45] perspective, there's there's some [27:47] implications to that which are beyond [27:48] the scope of this discussion which it's [27:50] very interesting. Uh and there's going [27:52] to be a lot of attention given to that [27:54] by the Jewish people. Not again, it's [27:55] not just a cool fact. It has [27:56] implications [27:58] >> because there there meaning there there [28:00] just I'll say very briefly just in case [28:02] I've piqued anyone's interest too much. [28:04] There are laws that only apply when [28:06] quote unquote the nation of Israel is in [28:08] the land. The question is when is the [28:10] nation of Israel in the land? So you can [28:13] define it in different ways but the even [28:15] the most maximalist description of it [28:18] would be the majority of the nation of [28:19] Israel is in the land. [28:22] So there's things that there's things [28:24] that that uh and then there's a whole [28:26] whatever we have arguments about [28:27] everything but you know there's so a lot [28:30] of gray area there but but it it's [28:33] really you know we're obviously living [28:35] in the time of the in gathering the [28:36] rebirth of the nation of Israel in our [28:38] land [28:40] and this is a big test for the nations [28:43] of the world and we see it [28:47] meaning there are people like yourself [28:49] and like the 300 leaders who have made [28:52] the pilgrimage to Jerusalem for Sukkot [28:55] who I'm going to be spending uh I'm [28:57] going to be spending that you know the [28:58] festival with [29:01] who see [29:03] who see the modern nation state of [29:05] Israel one way and then there's the [29:08] display we saw at the UN the other day [29:12] and what we see on Tik Tok and what we [29:14] see you know in the streets of our you [29:16] know on campuses and in the streets of [29:18] too many western cities and these are [29:21] people who are seeing the same thing. [29:24] They're seeing the same event. The [29:26] Jewish people independent in our land in [29:29] gathered by the millions from the four [29:30] corners of the earth. And they are not [29:32] interpreting it that way. [29:35] Reminds me of Psalm 2 where like the [29:37] nations are in a tumult, you know, [29:40] against God and against his anointed [29:41] people. They just, you know, they they [29:44] can't help themselves. But as it says in [29:46] Psalm 2, God sits up there and he [29:48] laughs. But [29:49] >> yeah, [29:49] >> but there's a test. The nations are [29:51] being tested. It's so obvious. How do [29:54] you see the nation of Israel? And any [29:57] Jew, and there are many Jews who fall [29:59] into this category. Any Jew who says, [30:02] "How come there's so much attention paid [30:04] to Israel? It's a, you know, it's no [30:06] fair. Like, you know, why don't you pay [30:07] more attention to what's going on [30:08] elsewhere in the world?" This is the way [30:11] it's supposed to be. The world is paying [30:13] attention to us. They don't even know [30:14] why they're paying attention to us. [30:15] They're obsessed. [30:17] And it's because it's a test. The modern [30:19] nation state of Israel, the in gathering [30:21] of the nation of Israel is a test. And [30:24] if if that's the era we're living in, [30:28] there's no event that brought that test [30:31] right into our faces more than October [30:33] 7th. October 7th set in motion a a [30:38] process that has led so much of the [30:41] world to be passionately anti-Israel. [30:44] And then there's those who have to [30:45] choose to be defenders of Israel. And [30:48] the question of which side you are on is [30:52] not just a political question. It is a [30:54] major major theological question. It has [30:57] to do with are you seeing God's hand in [30:59] this event? Are you seeing God's hand in [31:02] history? Are you acknowledging God's [31:04] unbroken covenant with the nation of [31:06] Israel? Are you acknowledging that or [31:08] not? [31:09] And October 7th really forced that issue [31:12] for many people. And I couldn't help but [31:14] think that maybe that's part of [31:19] why October 7th happened on Sukkot that [31:23] there was this challenge that this was [31:25] the that something major was going to [31:27] change in our history and in the history [31:30] of of the history of the world that was [31:33] going to bring this to the forefront and [31:35] challenge everyone. And the real [31:37] question of Zachchariah, are you making [31:38] the pilgrimage or not? Let's translate [31:40] that into modern terms. Whose side are [31:42] you on? Are you on the side where you [31:45] where you recognize the God of Israel? [31:48] Are you not on the side who recognizes [31:50] the God of Israel? And I so I've been [31:51] thinking a lot about that about about [31:53] Zachchariah and and the and the deeper [31:56] meaning of that of that passage for our [31:58] times. [32:00] >> And I think that's such a a fascinating [32:03] observation. Like obviously we've talked [32:05] about it being on Simha Torah. uh [32:08] October 7th took place uh on that day [32:11] and and yes it was around Sukkot but to [32:13] connect it to Zechariah 14 to connect it [32:15] to uh this concept of good versus evil [32:19] and choosing this day whom you will [32:21] serve to quote the book of Joshua uh you [32:24] know in if the Lord's God serve him or [32:26] to to quote uh first kings if the Lord's [32:30] God serve him but if Baal's god serve [32:32] him and I think uh for for all of us. We [32:37] have to come to that place. Uh I don't [32:40] think that there's uh an a a more [32:45] obvious time in history to your point [32:47] for us to have to look at the facts, [32:50] look at what's going on. And you can [32:52] choose to ignore and I do find it so so [32:56] fascinating that there's so much [32:59] happening in the world. I mean, there's [33:01] Christians by the thousands being [33:03] slaughtered in Nigeria. There's stuff [33:05] going on in Russia and North Korea and [33:08] China with the Weaguers and all of this [33:10] and the world could care less. And [33:14] everybody is focused on a tiny strip of [33:18] land in the middle of in the center of [33:22] the earth in the Middle East that is the [33:24] size of New Jersey 15 million people and [33:28] everybody is looking at that. I I think [33:31] uh Jeremy Boring uh was doing a podcast. [33:34] I forget who he had on and he and he [33:36] said, "Listen, if that tiny group of 15 [33:38] million people can control the whole [33:40] world, they probably deserve to cuz [33:41] there's 8 billion of us." And he made [33:43] this really it was a really funny quippy [33:45] comment. And I was like touche [33:48] and but you know, you look at that and I [33:50] and I think of scriptures like where God [33:52] says he's going to make Jerusalem an [33:53] immovable stone in those days and [33:55] anybody who tries to pick her up will be [33:56] crushed by her. And I I just think [33:58] there's so many things that you can't [34:00] you have to be intentionally looking in [34:03] a different direction to not recognize [34:05] the signs of the times and the fact that [34:08] we should be like the sons of Issachar [34:09] discerning those times. I I think it's [34:12] it's vital and that's why I think this [34:13] podcast is important. That's why I think [34:15] what I'm doing is important. That's why [34:16] I think what you're doing is important. [34:19] And you know the people that get that [34:21] will be excited about it and the people [34:23] that don't uh won't get it. And I I hope [34:25] that more people understand that this is [34:28] what God is doing. [34:30] >> Yeah. And I wanted to connect it also to [34:31] the book of Jonah, if I may, because as [34:35] I was preparing, I was going over Jonah [34:37] to make sure that I got the reading [34:38] right in the synagogue. Um, so I I [34:42] looked at it more than once, this Yam [34:43] Kipur, [34:45] and [34:47] I couldn't help but [34:50] ask myself the question like, why are we [34:52] reading this on Yum Kipur? And there's a [34:53] lot of different approaches to this. [34:55] Very often rabbis will speak about this [34:56] like what is the meaning of it? It's [34:58] obviously a repentance story. It's a [35:00] fasting and repentance story. So some [35:03] just give it a kind of surface meaning [35:05] like that, right? Because the people of [35:07] Ninve fast and dawn sackcloth and and [35:11] they're and they're redeemed. [35:15] But I think there's more to it than that [35:17] which relates it relates to this whole [35:19] theme, this universalist theme of the [35:21] feast of tabernacles. And again, I'm [35:23] speaking to the Jews in the audience [35:25] here. We need to wake up and recognize [35:27] that the purpose of the Jewish people is [35:29] not the Jewish people. The purpose of [35:30] the Jewish people is the world. That was [35:32] stated to Abraham. It was stated at [35:33] Sinai. It is stated repeatedly by every [35:35] prophet. [35:37] And Sukkot is the third of the [35:38] festivals. The festivals have an order. [35:40] First, we get out of Egypt, then we get [35:42] our covenant. And then where does it all [35:44] lead? Well, where it leads to is our [35:46] journey. And that's why it's these huts, [35:49] these temporary dwellings. Why are we [35:51] commemorating that? Because what God is [35:54] saying to us is I give I took you out of [35:55] Egypt. I gave you a mission and now you [35:57] are going to wander and you were going [36:00] to live in temporary dwellings and [36:01] you're going to move around the world [36:04] and in the end of the whole thing the [36:06] goal is what Zechariah 14 says. The goal [36:10] is to transform humanity. That is the [36:12] nation of Israel's mission. But Rashana [36:15] and Yom Kipur lead right up to it. They [36:18] are in the same month as Sukkot. They [36:20] they are kind of a a set within a set [36:23] with sukkot. They prepare us for sukkot. [36:27] And the the liturgy on rashashana and [36:30] yamipur [36:32] are [36:33] extremely universal compared to the [36:36] liturgy the rest of the year. There are [36:38] words that are changed to become more [36:41] universal. There are entire passages [36:43] that are repeated over and over again [36:44] that are all about all the peoples of [36:46] the earth serving God much more than [36:48] being about Israel. There's a [36:50] universalist shift in the liturgy of [36:53] rashan and yonipur clearly preparing us [36:57] for sukkot [37:00] and that's why I believe that the book [37:02] of Jonah is read in yonipur because the [37:04] book of Jonah is a story about a prophet [37:06] in Israel who was told to go to Ninveet [37:11] some other nation that he couldn't care [37:13] less about [37:15] and help them repent to be saved from [37:18] destruction And he's not interested. [37:22] He's not interested. Not only is he not [37:23] interested, when he gets on the ship to [37:25] run away and everyone on the ship is in [37:28] danger because of him. And he knows it. [37:32] He doesn't do anything about it until [37:35] they get to him and say, "What's going [37:36] on?" And he says, I mean, he knows that [37:39] it's his fault he's endangering these [37:41] people. And look at how righteous the [37:42] men on the ship were. The sailors are [37:44] not the sailors are the unsung heroes of [37:47] the book of Jonah. No one no one [37:49] remembers them because they're just in [37:50] the first chapter and they're not part [37:51] of Ninveet. But at the end of that [37:53] chapter, they all repent and they bring [37:55] offerings to God. And it says God with [37:57] his with his four-letter name, his name, [38:00] not just whatever gods they were [38:02] worshiping. They all turn to God. [38:04] >> Wow. [38:05] >> These are these are righteous people, [38:06] righteous Gentiles. [38:09] And then Jonah goes to Ninveet. And when [38:11] Ninve repents, it upsets him. [38:16] And and God's final words in the final [38:19] words of the book, his fi the final line [38:22] of the book of Jonah is a rebuke to [38:24] Jonah saying to Jonah, you care more [38:27] about this shrub that's giving you shade [38:29] than about my people in Nineve. [38:33] And I think that the that the rebuke at [38:35] the end of the book of Jonah is a rebuke [38:37] to the Jewish people. It's part of the [38:39] wakeup call that we're supposed to have [38:41] on Yum Kipur and say to us, okay, Jews, [38:44] we know it's been a tough journey and we [38:46] know the world has hated you for a long [38:48] time. And when that happens, it's very [38:50] easy to turn inward and say, I don't [38:51] care about anybody else. We any Jew who [38:55] feels that way is totally justified by [38:57] the events of history to say, I don't [38:59] care about anybody else. But that [39:01] doesn't change the fact that that our [39:03] mission is a universal mission. And I [39:05] think the book of Jonah is speaking to [39:06] every one of us and saying everyone else [39:10] matters. [39:11] Go to the nations. Tell them the truth. [39:15] Don't resent that mission the way Jonah [39:18] did. So that was what I was thinking [39:20] about as I was reading Jonah. I was kind [39:22] of putting it together in my mind with [39:24] Zechariah 14 about the mission of the [39:26] nation of Israel. the mission of and [39:27] what these festivals really represent uh [39:30] thematically as a move towards the [39:32] universal concern of the nation of [39:34] Israel and how all of the events that [39:38] will be taking place in Jerusalem this [39:39] week with eagle's wings with the [39:41] Christian embassy with all the other [39:42] with the tens of thousands of of [39:44] Christians who come to Israel every year [39:47] that they are the answer [39:50] they are answering Zachchariah's call [39:53] and they're the answer to all those [39:55] naysayers who delegitimize Israel, want [39:58] nothing to do with it, refuse to see God [40:01] in that battle in Zechariah 14. It's a [40:04] real question of whose side you're on. [40:05] And I cannot wait for the honor of being [40:08] in a room with hundreds of Christian [40:10] leaders from many different nations [40:12] around the world who are all answering [40:14] Zachariah's call at exactly the time [40:16] that they need to be. They're the answer [40:18] to the to the haters after October 7th. [40:22] That's um anyway and I couldn't be more [40:24] honored to be participating in that. [40:27] >> That's going to be very special and I [40:29] know the team's looking forward to it [40:31] and it's going to be awesome. 500 [40:34] people, 50 nations and uh Africans and [40:37] Indians and Europe and [40:40] >> mostly leadership I understand. [40:42] >> Correct. Yeah, it's a ton of pastors and [40:44] leaders and I think even some [40:46] governmental officials. I think there's [40:47] a a prince and princess of Nigeria [40:50] coming. There's all sorts of like really [40:52] wild cool stuff that only God can do. [40:55] Like you look at it and you go only God [40:57] could orchestrate this. And uh it's [40:59] going to be special. [41:00] >> God and Bishop Sterns. [41:01] >> Yeah, [41:03] we'll have to tell him he got a shout [41:05] out in the podcast today, [41:08] but that's going to be special. And this [41:10] is a a special passage of scripture. I [41:13] think it's important for us uh to [41:14] discern the times that we're in and to [41:16] understand that God is culminating uh [41:18] all things and he's drawing the nation [41:20] of Israel back together and the stage is [41:23] set. Well, thank you for listening to [41:25] today's episode. If you enjoyed this [41:27] episode, please like, rate, share this [41:29] podcast, subscribe on Patreon, come on [41:31] over to Facebook, like our page, join [41:32] our group as we would love to connect [41:33] with more and more of our [41:34] shoulder-to-shoulder family. and we'll [41:36] see you on our next
