Transcript [00:00] We are talking about the ninth day of [00:02] the war and there's nobody better to [00:04] explain to us what's really going on [00:05] than Yakov Katz who is an Israeli [00:07] American author, journalist, senior [00:09] fellow at the Jewish people's policy [00:12] planning institute in Jerusalem. Uh he [00:14] has served as editor-inchief of the [00:16] Jost, the Jerusalem Post and worked for [00:19] two years as policy adviser uh to uh [00:22] Nali Bennett who was the at the time the [00:24] minister of economy and minister of [00:26] diaspora affairs. Later he was the prime [00:28] minister as well. He's the author of [00:29] three books. Shadow Strike is inside [00:31] Israel, Inside Israel's Secret Mission [00:34] to Eliminate Syrian Nuclear Power. I [00:36] guess there's another chapter to that [00:38] now. Weapon Wizards: How Israel Became a [00:40] High-Tech Military Superpower in Israel [00:43] versus Iran. The Shadow War. Okay, you [00:46] know what? The floor is yours. Before I [00:47] even ask you questions, give me a [00:49] picture of what we've been seeing here [00:50] in the last nine days. [00:53] >> Well, I mean, put put aside books for a [00:54] moment. I think we need a whole new book [00:56] written [00:58] >> about I I I've long believed Ishi and I [01:01] wonder what you think that that we need [01:04] a new addition to the Tanakh. Okay. Who [01:08] am I to to to propose something like [01:10] that? But what the last two and a half [01:13] years for the Jewish people have been so [01:16] tumultuous, so challenging, so so [01:20] dangerous and existential. But look at [01:22] look at how we look at how we've [01:24] emerged. I mean, it's it's it's really [01:26] it's epic. It's biblical in proportion [01:29] and and the stories of the courage and [01:31] the bravery and the sacrifice of Israeli [01:33] people and Americans and and and just [01:36] everything going on here. this creation [01:38] of this new military alliance, a whole [01:40] new level, something that had we had we [01:42] spoken a few weeks ago, I I I could not [01:44] have imagined that we would have this [01:46] joint merged operation in the way that [01:48] we're seeing playing out right now where [01:50] the Americans are refueling the Israelis [01:52] and backwards and flying together and [01:54] sharing intelligence, sitting in command [01:56] rooms and is this is first war in [01:58] English. They're talking in English all [02:00] day because they're sitting across from [02:01] Americans. They're looking over the maps [02:02] and and analyzing targets and deciding [02:05] you go there, I go there. Israel, the [02:07] the military has changed its time, [02:09] right? They they usually have a their [02:10] own clock system. They're going [02:12] according to Zulu time, which is the [02:14] NATO time, because they're working with [02:15] the Americans. I mean, this is [02:17] unbelievable. So, I'll tell you I'll [02:19] tell you a couple of things. I'm super [02:21] optimistic. I really am because I [02:24] believe that we are on track to a [02:28] dramatic change, not just in the region, [02:30] not just for Israel, not just for the [02:32] people of Iran, but for global security. [02:35] I think that what we're seeing play out, [02:37] if this keeps up and the and the [02:39] Americans keep at it and Donald Trump [02:41] keeps going, this this will be the [02:44] change that our kids who now don't [02:47] understand what they're watching will [02:49] one day look back and say, "Wow, we were [02:50] witnesses to to history being being [02:53] written." [02:55] >> Yeah. I mean, you're totally right. I [02:58] have young children and they are [03:00] definitely feeling that they're living [03:02] through something amazing. You know, [03:04] though, Jews are sometimes um you know, [03:08] less the ones that are less involved in [03:10] the news uh and the ones that like are [03:12] more cynical. I was in synagogue and I [03:14] was talking to a guy and I was saying [03:15] basically what you just said and he's [03:17] like, "Yeah, but there's still this and [03:19] there's this and these that he started [03:21] poking holes and and laying out all the [03:23] problems." And I'm like I'm like, "We [03:26] just we just took out the leader of [03:29] Iran, a nation state. This guy has been [03:32] plotting to murder Israel for a long [03:34] time. We just took him out. Him and his [03:36] 40 top dudes in one shot. Like I agree [03:38] with you about the other problems, but [03:40] like hold on, take a stop and be like, [03:42] you know, and if you want to look at it [03:43] religiously, like thank God. And and if [03:45] you want to look at it religiously, you [03:46] could be like, wow, that was on Shabbat [03:48] Zakur. That's when we're supposed to [03:49] talk about the um the destruction of [03:51] Amalik. If you don't want to look at it [03:53] religiously, just look at it just in [03:54] your personal safety for you and your [03:57] children. You just averted a nuclear [03:59] Iran. You just averted a guy, you know, [04:02] who who terrorized us all the way in [04:03] Argentina in the Amy bombings and and [04:06] the Houthies. Like this guy just left [04:08] the world. We just took him out, you [04:10] know. We didn't leave him die. We didn't [04:11] let him die peacefully. We took him out. [04:13] Like wow. Thi think for a moment. You [04:16] know, I I I saw this tweet that Kami [04:20] tweeted 3 days after October 7th in [04:22] 2023. So was October 10th. And he [04:25] tweeted, "Israel brought this upon [04:27] themselves. Israel will never stand up [04:29] again and we'll never be able to rise [04:31] up. That was pretty much the language of [04:32] his tweet. And you know what? [04:34] >> Wow. [04:34] >> Because he was such an evil guy, he [04:36] tweeted it even in Hebrew to make sure [04:37] that every Israeli would be able to read [04:40] it. This this is what he tweeted from [04:41] his official account [04:43] >> right [04:43] >> when he was killed two Saturdays ago. I [04:47] wonder if he thinks now that we were the [04:51] ones who would never rise up, that we [04:53] were the ones who brought this upon [04:55] ourselves. Or was it he who brought it [04:57] upon himself when he unleashed his [05:00] proxies to attack us? Kamas on October [05:03] 7th, his Balan October 10th, the [05:04] Houthis, and of course Iran itself. And [05:07] you look at the leadership in all of [05:10] these different places [05:13] dead, [05:18] the the leaders of the Houthis dead. [05:22] Right? We're still standing. We're still [05:25] here. We're strong [05:28] and and they are collapsing around. Now, [05:30] does that mean we're in the safety zone [05:32] that we can sit back and and you know [05:35] rest? No. We have major challenges, [05:38] major risks, and we will have to fight [05:41] for a long time ahead. But in the big [05:44] scheme of things, this is so far playing [05:48] out to be a huge dramatic change in the [05:51] region. And if all goes well and this [05:54] continues, a huge victory for Israel, [05:57] for the United States, and for the [05:58] Western world. [06:00] >> All right. Um, let's ask a few questions [06:02] now. Uh, first thing is this Netanyahu [06:05] is not the same Netanyao that we knew [06:07] previously. I I could tell you that in [06:09] the political circles that I was in, it [06:11] was kind of wellnown Netanyahu is not a [06:13] warrior. He's not a fighter. He is a [06:16] great economy guy and he's and he's a [06:18] great politician and he knows how to put [06:20] powers against one another, but he's not [06:21] a great fighter. He's not a war maker. [06:23] That was the that was the lingo. I [06:25] remember sitting with with with Knesset [06:27] members and ministers where they would [06:28] say these kind of things. That's [06:30] obviously changed. So what happened? [06:32] This guy I mean at the same time, just [06:34] to further my question, he's been [06:36] talking about Iran for a long time. I'm [06:37] talking 25 years, [06:39] >> right? Like like this is his he's been [06:42] waiting for this moment [06:45] to [06:45] >> 100%. And and and and I'll say even more [06:47] than that. Part of what led to the [06:50] failed policies that brought us October [06:53] 7th and the surprise kamas attack was [06:56] our hyperfocus with the big mega [06:59] strategic threats from Iran. And [07:02] therefore we we took our eye off the [07:04] ball and we're not focused on the closer [07:07] to Israel threats like kamas. That was [07:09] part of the puzzle here. the the [07:13] Netanyahu that we are seeing over the [07:16] last two years or so since October 7th [07:20] is a different Netanyahu. It's a [07:22] Netanyahu who has thrown out the policy [07:25] of containment that was his trademark, [07:28] the policy to kick the can down the [07:30] road, do everything possible to avoid [07:32] war. And if you have to do an operation, [07:35] it's standoff. It's electronic. It's [07:38] covert. It's never boots on the ground. [07:41] It's never going to be something that's [07:43] in a big way. Nathaniel has changed. And [07:46] I think it's a change which is a result [07:48] of an understanding that the previous [07:50] policies were wrong. An understanding [07:52] that you can't just rely on the military [07:54] and the intelligence establishment [07:56] because of their own mistakes and [07:58] failures. And we saw those play out very [08:00] well, unfortunately, tragically. and the [08:02] eve of October 7th. But also I think [08:05] that he recognizes this moment in [08:08] history and this you have to give [08:09] Netanyahu. I have lots of criticism of [08:11] Netanyahu. Um I'm not the biggest fan at [08:14] all to say the least. But [08:15] >> right [08:17] >> this man is a leader of historic [08:19] proportion. What he has done for the [08:21] state of Israel over the last two years [08:23] of this war is nothing less of [08:26] remarkable. And we will have to judge [08:28] him for his failures and for his [08:30] successes. that that is how this works [08:32] in in life in general. And that's fine. [08:35] And there's nuance and complexity in [08:37] that. I get it. He he's not just perfect [08:39] and he's not just a failure. He is a mix [08:42] of them both. But but but this ability [08:46] to bring Donald Trump into this to have [08:48] this merged, you know, [08:51] let's just say it straight. We are today [08:54] what the United Kingdom was to the [08:56] United States in World War II. That's [08:57] what [08:58] >> I just I just want you to know that that [09:00] the previous guest before Maka was [09:02] Eugene Karovich and he said that word [09:04] for word exactly what you're saying now [09:06] like we have taken the place of what [09:08] England used to be. They're out of [09:09] >> and I mean and and and you know it's so [09:11] blatant cuz look at look at these I hate [09:14] this look at these losers in England [09:16] right now. I mean Kier Starmer this is [09:19] leadership I do they not understand and [09:22] you know and sadly they don't we know [09:24] the answer they do not understand the [09:27] nature of of the Iranian threat. I mean [09:28] it's is as if I I was speaking with a [09:31] with a with a senior [09:33] >> just just to remind you the UAE does not [09:36] send their young people to study in [09:39] England correct [09:40] >> lest they become too jihadi because [09:42] that's the education they're going to [09:44] get in England. You know, I was Democrat [09:47] I was speaking with the Democratic [09:48] operative in the United States, very [09:49] close to the Democratic party and it's [09:52] just I said I maybe I'm naive, right? [09:55] But deep down all these Democrats who [09:57] are against the war, it's because it's [09:59] Trump, right? It's not they they really [10:02] in their kishkas, they know that this is [10:04] right. I mean, you can't how do I how [10:07] and and he said, "I I hate to tell you, [10:10] but there's a small group that knows [10:11] it's right and they're just voting [10:13] against it and caught condemning it all [10:15] day because it's Trump, but the vast [10:17] majority really genuinely believes that [10:20] this war is wrong." And it's just it's a [10:23] misunderstanding [10:24] of basic history of what Iran has done [10:27] to America, of what Iran has done to the [10:30] world. You mentioned the AMIA attacks [10:32] and the attacks that have been in [10:34] Azerbaijan and in Turkey and in India [10:36] and in Africa and all over the world and [10:40] the attacks that they carried out [10:41] against American soldiers and [10:43] assassination plots against the [10:45] president of the United States. Mike [10:46] Pompeo still today secretary of state [10:49] walking around with security guards [10:51] because there's a death uh uh notice [10:53] that the fat a fatwa that was put out. [10:56] other members of the administration. [10:58] This is not an enemy of America [11:01] >> and then the enemy of being [11:02] >> and then not to mention the killing of [11:04] their own people [11:06] >> which which which by the way [11:07] >> which you would think all liberals pro [11:09] progressives would jump on [11:10] >> you would think but you know what [11:12] tragically that that that that goes out [11:14] the window when because when when not [11:18] only does sympathy go out the window you [11:19] know but but also the brain goes out the [11:22] window. Do you have thousands and [11:24] thousands of people who have been [11:25] killed? Whether it's 30,000, it's [11:26] 10,000, it's 7,000. Does it make a [11:29] difference? There are people who took to [11:31] the streets to fight for liberties that [11:32] you and I living in the state of Israel. [11:35] And of course, the people who live in [11:36] America and in Europe take for granted. [11:38] They don't have them. That alone should [11:41] be enough of a justification and a [11:43] reason for people to want to go out and [11:45] fight to free these people. Compound [11:47] that with the fact that this regime, you [11:50] know, I got this. There's just another [11:51] thing that's coming to my mind as we're [11:53] speaking. You know, for years, Isai, and [11:56] and you have really been one of the [11:58] front frontline warriors against this [12:01] myth, right? But that we Israel is the [12:05] source of all instability. It's the the [12:07] so-called occupation. It's our presence [12:10] in the Middle East. We shouldn't be [12:11] here. We should go back to Poland, you [12:13] know. And you've been preaching for [12:14] years. Ever since I've known you, 20 [12:16] plus years, you've been preaching [12:19] legitimately about our our our right to [12:22] this land, our right to be here. But you [12:25] know, if anyone still had doubts, if [12:28] anyone still had doubts, and it's hard [12:29] to believe that they would, but let's [12:30] say some people still did after the last [12:33] nine days that Iran is firing [12:35] indiscriminately into the UAE, into [12:38] Saudi Arabia, into Oman, into Iraq, into [12:41] Jordan, into Kuwait, into Cyprus, into [12:44] Azerbaijan, into Turkey, of course, into [12:46] Israel. Do you really think that it's [12:48] still Israel that's causing the [12:49] instability in the Middle East? I mean, [12:51] you you you have to be crazy to believe [12:52] that. [12:53] >> You you know how it is, though. You know [12:54] how it is when you have when you have a [12:56] certain prism, you'll just be like, "Oh, [12:59] look. They're they're they're suffering [13:00] and and they're lashing out. They're [13:02] lashing out at everything they could cuz [13:04] they're so abused." You get you you [13:06] could always justify it. You could [13:07] always justify it. I mean, I don't know [13:09] how you justify the the murder of at [13:11] least 30,000 civilians in the streets [13:13] asking for regime change. But you know, [13:15] as as as Judaism says, [13:19] like it's a when you when you hate [13:20] Israel and when you hate Trump and you [13:22] hate these things, you just it doesn't [13:24] matter because you can't grant him a [13:25] win. You can't grant Israel a win. You [13:27] just can't stand it. Let's actually [13:29] watch. Let's watch a video together of [13:31] President Trump talking on Air Force [13:33] One. I'd like to get your comments [13:35] >> uh on this. Hold on just one second. [13:38] Here it is. [13:40] >> Questions? President Trump, did what you [13:42] just witnessed make you think [13:44] differently about going ahead with this [13:46] war or even putting troops on the ground [13:48] in the Middle East? [13:50] >> We're winning the war by a lot. We've [13:53] decimated [13:54] their whole evil empire. It'll continue, [13:58] I'm sure, for a little while. But, uh, [14:01] very proud of the people in Paris. The [14:04] parents were so proud of their their [14:07] boy, as they call him. my boy [14:11] case the young lady the parents are so [14:14] proud many of them are military parents [14:17] as you know so it's but it's always a [14:20] very sad thing the war itself is going [14:22] unbelievably it's uh as good as it can [14:26] be [14:26] >> we have uh Pete here and we have Steve [14:31] Witco here if you have some additional [14:33] questions [14:34] >> you're one week in now sir you're one [14:36] week in at this point how as of now. Do [14:39] you expect [14:40] >> I think we've accomplished more in one [14:41] week than anyone thought possible. We've [14:44] wiped out their navy, 44 ships. We've [14:47] wiped out their air force, every plane. [14:49] We've wiped out most of their missiles. [14:51] You see, the missiles aren't coming much [14:53] anymore. We've al before we go on, I [14:55] wanted to ask you about the naval [14:57] warfare because you're also a writer of [14:59] of of [15:01] the wars. You cover the wars and how [15:03] they go. And I haven't heard much about [15:05] the naval aspect of it, right? there's a [15:07] naval engagement going on. We heard [15:09] about that one ship off of Sri Lanka [15:11] that was torpedoed by a US submarine. [15:14] Other than that, now he says there's 44 [15:16] ships that have gone down that have been [15:17] sunken or or disabled. Can you tell me [15:20] more about that? Do you do you know [15:21] anything? [15:22] >> Yeah, is Israel and the United States [15:24] when this war when the operations began [15:26] divided up different categories of [15:28] targets among which country or which [15:30] military would take which targets. The [15:32] US was primarily focused on the south of [15:34] Iran, which makes sense because that's [15:37] near the straits, that's where the flow [15:39] of oil, that's shipping lanes, and [15:42] that's where the navy is based and also [15:44] where the launchers would be closer to [15:47] attack allies of the United States and [15:49] regional bases. Israel more focused on [15:53] the western front but ballistic [15:56] missiles, drone capabilities [15:58] and the regime targets both together [16:02] taking out nuclear installations. The US [16:05] very focused on the navy. They want to [16:07] make sure that the Iranians cannot wreak [16:10] havoc in the straits of Hermuz in the [16:12] Arabian/Persian Gulf cannot cause any [16:15] trouble to the flow of oil or any other [16:18] trade through the region. So they have [16:20] systematically taken out and destroyed [16:23] essentially the entire Iranian Navy. [16:26] They did they destroyed about 30 or so [16:28] vessels. Many of them were just parked [16:30] inside a port. Some of them were out in [16:32] the water. Almost all destroyed by air [16:35] or with shipto- ship missiles. This one [16:38] in Sri Lanka, it was in the Indian [16:40] Ocean. They thought they were immune [16:41] there. Uh America sent a submarine and [16:44] destroyed it with a torpedo. First time [16:47] that a torpedo is used to sink a ship [16:49] since World War II. [16:51] >> Wow. [16:52] >> This is it's dramatic. It's interesting. [16:54] And you have to say to yourself, Eshi, [16:56] you know, [16:58] >> they could have destroyed it other ways. [16:59] They didn't have to do it that way. I [17:02] look at it and I see a lot of the [17:04] signaling and comm communicating that's [17:06] coming out of America is very much aimed [17:09] at China and Russia here. This is about [17:12] flexing a muscle and showing the world [17:15] and particularly those two adversaries [17:17] of the United States what American [17:19] military might is what the projection of [17:22] power looks like. And let's not forget [17:25] something super important to this. [17:27] Iran's military is an extension. It's [17:30] based on Chinese and Russian military [17:32] platforms. So if you look at what is [17:36] what America and Israel are doing to [17:37] Iran now imagine you're in the Kremlin [17:42] or you're in some PLA people liberation [17:44] army base in Beijing and you're seeing [17:47] what they can do to air defenses to air [17:49] force to missile capabilities. [17:53] Uh you got to wonder what they could [17:56] potentially one day do to you as well. [17:58] >> And you're thinking maybe we're going to [18:00] just jump in and take over the Taiwan. [18:02] and we're just going to swallow it up. [18:03] Then you're like, I'm thinking twice [18:05] about that, right? [18:06] >> I think that that's that's that's part [18:07] of what the American consideration is. [18:09] And and you know, if you look and it's [18:11] interesting [18:12] >> because I've been reading a couple [18:14] Chinese analysts uh based in China and [18:16] you know, they obviously have to tow the [18:18] line of the of their own regime, but [18:20] they are saying that we have to really [18:22] study carefully what we're watching the [18:24] Americans use here. And and let's not [18:26] forget something else. This is the first [18:28] war for the United States against a [18:31] conventional military in about 23 years [18:33] since the invasion of Iraq. Now, that [18:36] was very different and this is obviously [18:38] very different and China would be a [18:39] whole other scale than what we're seeing [18:41] now. But this is a great opportunity to [18:43] test out all these different [18:45] capabilities that America has amassed [18:47] over the years. The George Bush carrier [18:50] group is now steaming towards which [18:53] ocean is it coming towards? Is it is it [18:55] is it into the Gulf or is it into the [18:57] Med going to the Gulf. Yeah. [18:59] >> Okay. That's a third carrier group in [19:01] our region. [19:02] >> Yeah. [19:02] >> So, [19:03] >> and question does it replace another [19:05] carrier? Does it come to add to the [19:06] current carrier? We'll have to wait to [19:07] see. It's going to take some time also [19:09] for it to come. But look, the Iranians [19:12] totally miscalculated here. You know, [19:14] Donald Trump built up this force, what [19:16] he called the great armada, the most [19:18] beautiful armada over a period of weeks. [19:21] and and they they I mean the fact that [19:23] Kami was meeting in his compound above [19:25] ground with all of his adviserss and top [19:28] officials on that Saturday morning [19:30] thinking nothing's going to happen to me [19:32] just goes to show the sheer [19:35] miscalculation by the Iranians of what [19:38] >> how do you make that miscalculation just [19:39] to tell me that cuz like I know like [19:41] like analysts that I spoke to they were [19:43] like I'm like is there going to be a war [19:45] they're like yeah definitely there's [19:46] definitely going to be a war that's why [19:47] he's bringing all this metal floating [19:49] metals or flying metal because there's [19:51] going to be a strike. And how is it that [19:53] you're sitting in Iran, you're like, [19:55] "Nah, this guy's a bluff. He's bluffing [19:57] it." And you already you already got [19:59] struck on on in June. Is it because they [20:01] thought, "Oh, see, he doesn't want to go [20:02] all the way." You know, is that is that [20:04] what they were thinking? How how were [20:06] they so bllythe or what's the hubris [20:09] that they had? Or was it not hubris, but [20:12] some kind of death wish? I' I've read [20:14] some stuff that they say that there's [20:16] some a cult within uh uh within uh [20:19] Shiite Islam, which is like end of the [20:21] world type of, you know, ideology, like [20:24] we're just going to bring on to to a to [20:25] a general conflict, end of the world [20:27] type thing. Well, that's also our role. [20:29] Well, what what were they thinking? You [20:30] think [20:31] >> I think it doesn't. This is a death [20:32] cult. This is an ideological doctrine [20:36] that calls for war, jihad, and [20:39] destruction. Hates you and me because of [20:41] our religion and our way of life. Right? [20:43] that that this is this was not a [20:45] government that took over in 1979 47 [20:48] years ago and you know just wanted to [20:50] run the country. This isn't like the [20:52] coups that we've seen in other [20:54] authoritarian regimes. This was meant to [20:56] spread their ideology through violent [20:58] oppressive means all throughout the [21:00] region. And that's exactly what they [21:01] have tried to do for the last 47 years. [21:04] The fact of the matter is they call [21:05] themselves still the revolution. Right? [21:08] This is still a revolution all these [21:10] years later because this is what this [21:12] is. This has always been about their [21:14] miscalculation, I think, was just a [21:15] total misread of who Donald Trump is, [21:18] what he really wanted to do, and their [21:21] belief that they could do what they have [21:24] done forever with American presidents, [21:26] right? Uh they did this with Barack [21:28] Obama, they did this with Joe Biden, [21:30] they strung along George W. Bush. They [21:33] have always been able to do this. And [21:36] Donald Trump and and I don't know [21:39] necessarily where it comes from. It's [21:41] hard for me to answer that question, but [21:43] I do think after watching him now almost [21:45] six years as president. This is a man [21:48] who really gets one thing clear. The [21:51] distinction between good and evil and [21:54] and and and sometimes it is simple. [21:57] >> I think he's got one more thing. [21:59] >> Yeah. [22:00] >> I think he's got one more thing. Yakov [22:01] Yakov Katz. Um he has an innate sense of [22:06] power projection. And I'll tell you what [22:08] I mean by that. I see that he's a man [22:11] who does not stutter when media asks him [22:14] a question. He doesn't get nervous when [22:16] it's time to tweet something out. He [22:18] doesn't get nervous about making [22:19] mistakes. He doesn't get nervous about [22:21] saying something that isn't perfect. [22:22] He's used to that. And in a sense, he [22:25] has a gut like maybe, you know, you [22:28] know, other presidents would be like, [22:30] "Is this okay to say? What should we [22:31] say? Where's my advisors? What do you [22:33] think?" He just rolls it out. And I [22:35] think that also that project that that [22:37] natural instinct of projection is also a [22:39] place where you can naturally project [22:40] war or strength. You're like, I want to [22:43] make a deal with you. I'm really being [22:44] honest with you. You don't want a deal? [22:46] Well, I'm going to really strike you. [22:47] And here it really is. It's it's it's a [22:50] sense of it's a very natural is a person [22:52] who's very naturally in his position and [22:55] is not concerned with what this media [22:57] person will say, what this person will [22:58] say. He just has a you know what I mean? [23:01] like a like a like a like a what do they [23:03] you know it's a charisma that is just [23:06] natural a leadership a protection of [23:08] power that is natural and there it is [23:10] right there it's it's I I think you're [23:13] right I think that's another piece to it [23:15] 100% and it's about the [23:18] the the understanding that where force [23:20] is needed he doesn't hesitate to use it [23:23] and how it's important but we we have to [23:26] remember you also though is that [23:28] military is politics by other means [23:31] This is not the end all, [23:33] >> right? [23:33] >> Whatever comes of this, we have a number [23:36] of different options of which way this [23:38] could go. [23:38] >> And and we have seen failures, right? [23:40] We've seen failures at these moment. [23:42] >> Look, I mean, you know, [23:43] >> look at Iraq, right? Like like it [23:44] failed. [23:45] >> But I I take closer to home. Look at [23:47] what's happening in Gaza right now. [23:48] >> Right. [23:49] >> Right. I mean, you know, we we're kind [23:51] of not talking about it. [23:52] >> Yeah. It's quiet. [23:54] >> Hamas is in control of 50% of the Gaza [23:56] Strip and has reconstituted itself and [23:57] has tens of thousands of fighters with [23:59] tens of thousands of weapons. I mean, [24:00] >> what the hell? What's that about? [24:03] >> I mean, that's a whole other [24:04] conversation, right? But I mean, [24:06] >> but that's what it is. Is it a whole [24:07] other conversation? Isn't this part of [24:09] the same war? Like, over there, you're [24:10] crushing them to pieces, and over here, [24:12] you're letting right next door in our, [24:14] you know, in what was once controlled by [24:15] Israel, you're letting them [24:16] >> No, because it it comes down to, okay, [24:18] you've done a lot. You've weakened. Now, [24:20] we got to we got to quickly come up with [24:22] some way to end this. And sometimes that [24:24] quick way to end it, it's not cooked. [24:27] It's not baked. And it's not it's not [24:29] it's not strong enough to really prevent [24:32] the reconstitution [24:34] of the adversary and of the enemy. And [24:37] and and that's something that we need to [24:39] make sure does not happen here, right? [24:41] Because here's my big fear. Okay? My big [24:45] fear is that whoever the new Ayatollah [24:48] will be, whoever will be the supreme [24:49] leader, this person will will make one [24:54] very fast conclusion. And that is if I [24:57] only had nuclear weapons, this never [25:00] would have happened. And therefore, I [25:03] need to race. I need to make a mad dash [25:06] to get my hands on nuclear weapons. Now [25:09] remember, they have the 400 kilos that [25:12] were enriched to over 60% which is just [25:14] a jump away from the 90% military grade. [25:17] They're still far away from a weapon, [25:19] but we don't know everything that's [25:21] happening everywhere. And therefore, if [25:23] we don't destroy the six the 400 kilos [25:26] or get our hands on the 400 kilos, this [25:29] could be a very bad this could this [25:31] could end not in a good way. And you [25:33] know, so I I I I think of that. I think [25:35] of also how Donald Trump what he talks [25:38] about when he speaks of regime change, [25:39] the gold standard for him to some extent [25:42] is Venezuela. And what happened in [25:43] Venezuela? He got rid of Maduro and saw [25:46] the vice president. So you know, in his [25:48] mind, you get rid of Kame, you take [25:50] Kame's son potentially. I don't think [25:52] so. So that's not what he would want, [25:53] but that could potentially happen. And [25:55] he could say, "Okay, we're done. We [25:57] called it we call it a day. We're going [25:58] to make a deal with them. We're going to [25:59] sit and negotiate and we're going to [26:01] negotiate." In the meantime, is it [26:03] really that much different? Is our [26:04] safety and security now guaranteed [26:07] forever? Of course not. We see the same [26:09] in Gaza. So, we do have to be very [26:12] conscientious. [26:13] >> Well, you and you you and I you you said [26:15] you hinted to it that you have have [26:17] criticism of Netanyahu. To me, the [26:20] completion of the Gaza operation was [26:22] botched. It was not the way it should [26:24] have. It it should not have been [26:26] finished that way. There's no way that [26:27] you should have left and that was part [26:29] of the war goals to get rid of kamas and [26:31] to certainly disarm them minimally. And [26:33] and and that didn't happen. And it's [26:35] like how could you have made that same [26:37] mistake? How could you have put us [26:38] basically in a position where we were [26:41] more or less before October 7th, October [26:43] 6th? And so it was it was a failure. It [26:46] was a botch. Uh, one does not want to [26:49] see this Iran operation botched. One [26:51] want wants to see Iran either have a new [26:54] type of leadership, a new type of regime [26:57] or maybe be split up into its ethnic [27:00] components, but this time properly like [27:04] at the end of like World War I and and [27:06] World War II where you sit down and you [27:08] make new lines and you you you the [27:10] powers get together and they they think [27:11] it through and then then they have big [27:12] conferences and then that they figure it [27:14] out what what the lines should be. I [27:16] mean, not to do what happened in Iraq [27:18] where it's like, let's just have [27:19] democracy and then the whole thing goes [27:21] to pot and Iran takes over. Like, this [27:23] is this has to be done smartly now. If [27:25] like you're going if you're sending [27:26] three carrier groups and you're [27:28] destroying the IRGC and you're doing and [27:29] you're killing the their leadership, you [27:32] better come up with a plan to to to have [27:34] a day after. [27:35] >> And that that is super important. And I [27:37] agree. And that's we don't yet know [27:39] exactly how that's going to look. But [27:41] that will that will be the make or break [27:43] of what we're seeing right now because [27:45] everything that's been destroyed can be [27:47] rebuilt. Every weapon that has been used [27:49] can be bought again and developed or [27:51] manufactured. [27:53] >> We need to make sure that that doesn't [27:54] happen. And the best the listen the best [27:56] way for that is obviously regime change, [27:59] but there's no guarantee. You know, I I [28:01] think often about Bashar al-Assad, [28:04] right? 2011 begins the Arab Spring. It [28:07] took 13 years for that guy to go. Right. [28:09] Right. [28:09] >> He held on tooth nail. He got help from [28:11] the Russians and he got help from the [28:12] Iranians. He got help from Hezbollah, [28:14] but he was able to hold on for some [28:15] time. But it was the beginning of the [28:16] end. It could be that this is also the [28:19] beginning of the end. But it might be a [28:21] process. It might take time for the [28:23] Iranian people to rise up to get their [28:26] act together to stand up to I don't know [28:28] what exactly how this plays out. No one [28:30] does at this point. And unless they [28:32] surrender, which they're not going to [28:34] do, because their whole objective is [28:36] just to survive, in other words, the [28:37] regime, then then we might be in for for [28:40] for a journey. And in this journey, we [28:44] do have to make sure they don't have the [28:46] opportunity to build it up again. [28:49] >> Yakov Katz, just just another I have you [28:52] for just another minute or two. Uh [28:53] you're an Israeli American author and [28:55] journalist, senior fellow at the Jewish [28:57] people policy, [28:59] and I'll never get this right. Jewish [29:01] People Policy Institute in Jerusalem. Uh [29:04] you're the former I remember you very [29:05] well as the former editor of the as the [29:07] editor of the Jerusalem Post. Uh and now [29:09] you have uh worked on a lot of books. Uh [29:12] and you worked for uh Nali Bennett. Let [29:15] me ask you about two two more little [29:18] things for the last few minutes here. [29:20] Number one, Turkey. Where are they at in [29:23] this? They've been a little bit quiet. [29:25] He he mourned uh uh what's his name? [29:28] uh type Erdogan. Uh oh, and we're we're [29:32] being asked what is your ex handle? If [29:34] people can follow you, if you want to [29:35] tell us that or [29:36] >> Yakov, that's just my name. Y A K O V K [29:39] A TZ. Yakov. [29:40] >> Yakov Cats. There you go. With a Z at [29:42] the end. Okay. So X on X. Okay. Um [29:46] what's with that guy Erdogan? like he's [29:49] another big power player and he [29:51] negotiated [29:53] the takeover in in some ways fermented [29:56] the takeover of Syria by his like people [29:59] that are like him in his image. Where is [30:01] he at in all this? So far kind of quiet. [30:03] I just wanted to get your take like [30:04] where's this where's this outlier? [30:06] Where's it where's this like [30:08] >> Turkey was one of the first countries to [30:09] condemn the USIsrael operation. Erdogan [30:12] came out very strong against it. They [30:14] were a missile was fired towards Turkey. [30:17] NATO because they are member of NATO. [30:18] NATO defensive systems shot it down. But [30:22] with that said, we've also seen a [30:23] missile that landed uh a drone, sorry, [30:26] that struck into Aaraijan, which is also [30:28] in that same region. In in general, [30:32] the the the thing that has me concerned [30:34] when it comes to Turkey is that if we [30:36] look at the last two years, we've seen a [30:38] decline in the Iranian axis, right? The [30:42] Shia axis. This is Iran including its [30:46] ally of Syria of course Hezbollah they [30:49] are in decline but in their place we're [30:52] seeing the rise of the Muslim [30:54] Brotherhood Axis and this is Qatar and [30:58] Turkey and it should have us very [31:01] concerned. Turkey is a very powerful [31:03] country. I'm not the first to make this [31:05] comparison. Many smarter people than I [31:08] have done this, but Iran in before the [31:11] 79 revolution was our great friend, our [31:12] close ally. Right? Turkey was once upon [31:15] a time our great friend and our close [31:17] ally. And look at where they have gone [31:19] and look at the the the extremism that [31:21] is in that country today and look at [31:22] their military and their capabilities. [31:25] We should be very wary of what is [31:27] happening there and what it could [31:29] potentially mean for security not just [31:31] of the state of Israel but for security [31:33] of Europe as well. And I think that [31:35] that's something that the world is not [31:37] giving enough attention to right now. [31:39] >> And that's why I'm asking exactly. [31:41] There's like a sense that there's this [31:42] like shark in the waters right to the [31:44] north of us. Uh and it's like sitting [31:47] looking and watching us and and and [31:49] studying us as well. Okay. The the last [31:51] question that I have for you is there [31:53] are two elections coming up. One US [31:56] midterm elections and two is Israeli [31:59] elections. and and whoever [32:03] whoever understands war knows that [32:05] politics is a part of war and that [32:07] political thinking is a part of war. [32:10] Tell me what your what mean to say [32:11] political survival elections. I mean to [32:13] say I don't mean just like politics in [32:15] general. I mean particular as in I want [32:17] to get reelected. [32:18] >> Tell me how you see and you worked for [32:21] Nelli Bennett who is uh who is also [32:25] in the uh [32:28] >> Okay. But he's I'm saying he's in the [32:29] polls right now. He's back. He's he's a [32:30] he's he has a voice right now. Um [32:34] >> tell me how you're seeing these two [32:35] elections. America there's a lot of [32:37] people who are against this war. the the [32:39] Democrats and the left and the CNN, [32:41] they're working overtime against this [32:43] war, make to make it more unpopular. Uh, [32:46] and here in Israel, probably Netanyahu [32:48] is riding high probably. Uh, but [32:51] there'll be efforts to discredit him and [32:53] to say you led to the to to this war and [32:55] you you didn't you you did not see it [32:57] coming. So, how do you see these two [32:59] elections and how do you see them [33:00] affecting uh the the war process? [33:04] Look, in in in the United States, the [33:07] midterms are going to be very telling, [33:08] and it looks like the Republicans are [33:10] going to lose the majority uh in the [33:12] House and potentially also in the [33:14] Senate. And I I'm very concerned with [33:16] the voices that I'm hearing definitely [33:18] on the Democratic side of the aisle when [33:21] it comes to Israel. Gavin Newsome [33:23] comments that he's recently just made [33:25] who's might be a frontr runner in the [33:26] primaries for the presidential [33:28] nomination come 2028, current governor [33:31] of California. I mean, Israel is very [33:34] toxic today in the United States and we [33:36] saw the the [33:37] >> Ouch. That that just that's hurt me. [33:39] That hurt me when you said it. [33:40] >> Me, too. [33:41] >> Yeah, but that's a strong way that you [33:42] said it. It's very true. Like, we've [33:43] become [33:44] >> But but but we can't we can't I can't [33:46] sugarcoat it. I mean, look at the poll. [33:48] >> Look at the Gallup poll. They came out [33:50] last week, right? Just before the war. [33:52] Gallup came out with a poll. They do a [33:54] running poll [33:55] >> asking regular Americans, who are you [33:57] more sympathetic to, Israel or the [34:00] Palestinians? For the first time, the [34:03] numbers changed. There's a majority that [34:05] is more sympathetic to the Palestinians [34:07] than they are to. And and and it's not [34:09] about the Palestinians. [34:11] It's about the Israelis, right? It's [34:14] that we we're losing ground and and and [34:16] we're losing them on both sides, on both [34:18] extremes in the MAGA movement extreme. [34:21] Take look at Tucker Carlson and his ilk. [34:24] And of course, what's happening on the [34:26] left. So what what comes out of this [34:28] midterms does have me concerned. what [34:30] comes out of our current of our [34:31] election. We will decide what we who we [34:34] want and the Israeli people will go to [34:36] the ballots when whether it's going to [34:38] be in June or September, October. It has [34:40] to be held by October, but the prime [34:42] minister might move up the election and [34:44] they'll decide and this will be a [34:45] referendum to a large extent on [34:46] Netanyahu as the elections long have [34:48] been. And Israelis will choose do they [34:50] want him or do they not want them? [34:52] That's that's their right to do. What I [34:53] hope and pray though is that we don't [34:57] let the elections rip us apart like [35:00] we've done in the past. Right? We got to [35:02] keep our eye on the ball here. There's [35:04] too much at stake. We've seen, we've [35:07] learned over the last two and a half [35:09] years that when we rip ourselves apart, [35:12] when we divide ourselves, our enemies [35:14] will swoop in and take advantage of [35:16] that. We can't let that happen again. [35:17] >> By their own admission, they they they [35:19] literally said that. They did like and [35:21] we saw we saw that society rip apart and [35:23] and was a big talker about that. He's [35:25] like look they're falling apart. They're [35:26] falling apart and they attacked us. [35:29] >> We have to be careful. We we we I think [35:31] if if we've learned anything and I I I [35:34] I'll be honest. I didn't know. [35:35] >> Do you think we've learned that? Do you [35:36] think so? Do you think that there's a [35:37] movement towards more civility here in [35:39] Israel? [35:40] >> Unfortunately, not enough. But but but [35:42] but I but it's something I I talk about [35:44] I write about because I think that I've [35:46] learned I did I was not aware and I was [35:48] part of that. I was, you know, I'm part [35:50] of the problem. But, but I did not [35:53] understand myself until October 7th how [35:56] important [35:58] unity, cohesion, social cohesion is for [36:01] national security. [36:02] >> I just I just want to say that my mother [36:04] says that the word is not cohesion and [36:07] unity. It's civility. It's derk er it's [36:11] it doesn't even have you don't even have [36:12] to be so united. just have to be kind, [36:14] decent, uh uh dialoguy, you know, it's [36:19] it's not even it's not even like I'm, [36:20] you know, I I love you. It's like I I I [36:23] have I have a civil discourse with you [36:25] and that's very important. [36:26] >> Um so that's that's certainly a part of [36:30] uh the challenge that we have here in [36:31] Israel. And it's not like so many people [36:33] talk about that. you talk about that and [36:35] maybe that's also your American side as [36:37] well. But it's not like Israelis are [36:38] always talking about how do we get back [36:39] to [36:40] >> Listen and I admit I culturally I must [36:43] be different. But but but but I believe [36:46] I think people understand that you know [36:49] and and look you and I don't agree on [36:51] everything right you you your your [36:54] ideology different than mine your belief [36:56] in certain things different than mine [36:57] but we sit here we could have a [36:58] conversation right we we we we could do [37:01] that with people who are very different [37:04] and and and that's about understanding [37:06] that in the big scheme of things we we [37:10] do want similar objectives we want to be [37:13] able to live here with our family. We [37:15] want to be able to to to raise kids that [37:18] will be safe and secure. [37:19] >> We want to be able to, you know, I I [37:22] tell my kids when we go to when we [37:25] today, thank God, I think we only had [37:26] one siren. Yesterday on Shabbat, we had [37:28] two or three. [37:29] >> We go down to the bomb shelter, it [37:30] becomes like, "Ah, again, we got to go [37:32] down to the bomb shelter. It's annoying [37:33] already. What do I have to do?" And I [37:34] say, "Guys, listen. Those missiles that [37:37] you're hearing, those booms, they're [37:39] coming to kill us. Let's I'm not going [37:41] to sugarcoat this. We need to recognize [37:44] where we are and what this is. They are [37:47] out to destroy who we are and our way of [37:49] life. They don't want us here. And and [37:52] that does something to you. I think if [37:54] we recognize that, I recognize it. You [37:56] recognize it. Most Israelis recognize [37:59] that. That puts us in a in a in a in a [38:01] different boat and a different type of [38:02] reality. And we have to stand together [38:05] because this isn't about this isn't [38:08] some, you know, worse comes to worse, we [38:11] pay a little more in taxes. No, no, no. [38:12] Worse comes to worse, we're gone. That's [38:15] what that's what's that's what's real. [38:19] >> And uh Israel is um at the same time, I [38:23] showed a video of people getting married [38:25] in a bomb shelter. There is a sense of [38:29] vibrancy. There is a sense of life. Uh I [38:31] have a coffee place downstairs for me. [38:33] the police came and tried to shut it [38:35] down and they said, you know, it's only [38:36] for uh uh businesses that the only [38:39] businesses that are allowed to be open [38:40] are uh what what do we call that in [38:42] English? Uh uh [38:47] >> in integral, critical [38:48] >> integral, right? And he's like he's [38:49] like, I'm making coffee here. People [38:51] can't live without it. And the police [38:53] was like, okay. The police were like, [38:55] you're right. And so so coffee is [38:57] existential for me. [38:58] >> Right. Exactly. He's like, PEOPLE NEED [38:59] IT. WITHOUT IT, IT'S NOT GOING TO KEEP [39:01] GOING. YOU KNOW, THE police was like, [39:02] you're right. You're right. So that's [39:04] exactly uh uh the Jewish nation [39:06] continues to live. I agree with you that [39:08] there's a need for more civility and [39:10] speaking with you is an exercise in in [39:13] hearing a person of of great civil [39:15] discourse and I really want to thank you [39:17] very much for coming uh on uh on the [39:19] show today and uh I agree with you that [39:22] this war is still has a lot of surprises [39:25] for us. We still have to pray. We still [39:27] have to be offensive and defensive and [39:29] we have to find more unity. Uh and also [39:32] unity with our region. Our region's got [39:34] to come to a more consciousness of [39:35] unity. Our region's got to drop some of [39:37] the hate that is that has been the [39:39] hallmark of this region. You got to let [39:40] it go, guys. Like Israel's part of the [39:42] deal. It's your cousin. We're here to [39:44] defend you as well. We're here to be the [39:45] liberation nation as well. And uh and I [39:48] you know, you're seeing Iranians you're [39:50] seeing Iranians like singing the praises [39:52] of Netanyahu and Israel. You're seeing [39:54] the Drews do that. You're singing the [39:55] you're seeing the Kurds do that. Now [39:57] it's time to see more more normative [39:59] Arabs also start to talk that way and to [40:01] see Israel as a normative part at least [40:04] a civil part of of this region that will [40:06] help for trade that will help tra [40:08] tourism that will help normalization [40:10] that will help health and roads and [40:11] businesses. [40:13] So much can be done here uh with the [40:15] help of God. So let's hope that this [40:16] great moment indeed turns out to be [40:18] great uh at the end. [40:19] >> A pleasure to be with you as always. [40:22] >> Yakov Katz, you got to follow him. [40:23] Yakov, can we please put up his uh his [40:25] Twitter handle there? Uh yo, I would [40:27] appreciate that. Is an Israeli American [40:29] author, journalist, senior fellow at the [40:31] Jewish People Policy Institute in [40:33] Jerusalem. Uh used to be at the JPost at [40:36] the as the editor-inchief there. Worked [40:38] for an Afelli Bennett as a as a [40:40] assistant to a uh as a what's the word [40:43] I'm looking for here? as a adviser [40:46] adviser to uh to the minister who later [40:48] became a uh a prime minister. and he's [40:51] written many books all of which need now [40:53] a new chapter and that means that he's [40:55] got more work to do. Akov Katz thanks so [40:58] much for being with us. [40:59] >> Take care. [41:00] All right, folks.
