Transcript [00:00] While few people witnessed the horrors [00:02] of October 7th as closely as Dr. Carl [00:04] Wigran, forensic pathologist Dr. Wigan [00:07] came to Israel in the aftermath of [00:09] Kamas's October 7th massacre and while [00:12] working in the morg, witnessed some of [00:13] its most horrific scenes firsthand. Now, [00:16] Dr. Carl joins us to share his story of [00:19] courage, loss, and what it meant to [00:21] stand with Israel during one of the [00:22] darkest chapters in its history. Dr. [00:25] Wigran, we're so honored to have you [00:27] with us. [00:27] >> It's my pleasure. You came to Israel [00:30] shortly after October the 7th. What [00:32] compelled you to come, especially as [00:34] someone who's not Jewish or Israeli? [00:38] >> Well, it's a it's a little bit of a [00:39] story, so should I just launch right [00:42] into it? Um uh my uh my wife and our two [00:46] daughters were heading to a wedding and [00:48] we were driving to that destination and [00:51] we started hearing on the news that you [00:54] know what was happening in Israel and [00:56] that there were you know there was a [00:58] music festival and that there were uh [01:00] individuals who had passed away at the [01:02] hands of um some sort of incursion on [01:05] the border with Gaza. Um, I knew [01:09] absolutely nothing about Israel or Gaza [01:12] or the West Bank or any of these [01:14] regions. [01:16] Uh, and and as it began to unfold, I I [01:20] looked over at Erica, my wife, and I [01:24] said, "There is no way I'm going to [01:28] Israel." And to kind of back up, we had [01:30] planned to go with her cousin and his [01:33] wife to Israel um in May of uh what [01:36] would have been 2024. And I said, "No [01:39] way. I'm not going." Because I I think [01:42] I've shared with you, Michael, that I [01:44] had some uh very ill feelings about [01:47] Israel um that had kind of built up over [01:51] the years. Um, [01:54] and I don't know exactly where those [01:57] feelings had come from, but you know, at [02:00] some point my wife and you know, uh, her [02:04] cousin had convinced me, you know, you [02:06] need to come see for yourself Israel. [02:08] And then this happens five months, six [02:11] months before, and I said, "No way am I [02:14] going." Uh-uh. No. And uh then about a [02:19] week later um our professional list [02:21] serve of medical examiners uh made up [02:24] largely of forensic pathologist [02:27] uh sent out a emergency email that they [02:31] needed forensic pathologists on the [02:33] ground in Israel to help you know [02:36] process and examine the deceased from [02:39] you know all the different sites across [02:41] the southern part of Israel. Um, [02:45] and at that point I think I had [02:47] processed everything and [02:51] uh I made the independent decision [02:55] um to go or at least to attempt to go. [02:59] And I remember calling Erica, my wife, [03:03] on the way to the airport not to go to [03:06] Israel, to another area. And I [03:10] she brought up on her own. She goes she [03:14] just said, "You're you're you're going [03:15] to go, aren't you?" And I said, "What?" [03:18] And she said, "You're you're you you're [03:21] going to apply to assist in Israel." And [03:23] I said, "Yes." And that's kind of how it [03:27] all started. And within a day or two of [03:29] that email, uh, we had a a group [03:32] interview, probably 20 forensic [03:34] pathologists from across the United [03:36] States. [03:38] and Yan Cougall who's the kind of the [03:41] director of uh the Abu Kabir morg in Tel [03:44] Aviv. He he said um he kind of [03:48] interviewed all of us and had us write, [03:50] you know, a little synopsis about [03:52] ourselves. And I was fortunate enough um [03:55] to be chosen by Yen um for probably, I [03:59] would say, one of the most life-changing [04:02] moments I've ever experienced. And uh so [04:09] I you know about a day or two later I'm [04:12] I'm on a plane going to New York and uh [04:16] and then you know I meet uh uh what's [04:21] his name? Gold Gold Schmidt from the [04:24] American Healthc Care Professionals and [04:27] Friends of Medicine in Israel who was [04:29] kind of sponsoring this uh medical [04:32] mission uh to Tel Aviv and you know the [04:35] four uh individuals from the United [04:38] States who had been um you know [04:41] recruited to assist. We were sitting [04:43] there at the, you know, JFK [04:46] International Airport and all of a [04:49] sudden I'm seeing [04:51] all these um ultra orthodox. So now I'm [04:55] I'm kind of out of my space. I'm out of [04:57] my comfort zone. And then one of them [04:59] comes up and says, you know, can you do [05:01] minion with me? And I'm like, I I don't [05:05] think I can do that. [05:07] And so, um, they the, you know, the [05:11] large group that was heading toward Tel [05:13] Aviv, um, they caught wind of what we [05:16] were doing. And one of, uh, one of the [05:20] individuals went up to the gate and told [05:23] the the ticketing agent there that we [05:26] were heading, you know, what our mission [05:28] was. And we all got upgraded to business [05:32] class, which was a nice kind of landing. [05:35] Um, and I started feeling a little more [05:37] comfortable. My whole education [05:41] uh about Israel began on that on that [05:44] flight. And you know, you're in the air [05:47] for I think it's 15 hours. And I didn't [05:50] sleep at all. And I started um [05:54] researching, you know, what was going [05:56] on, reading newspaper articles, um [05:59] learning about Hamas and the terrorist [06:01] organization. [06:03] And I know this is old news to everyone [06:06] in Israel and anyone who's Jewish, but I [06:10] read the Hamas charter from 1988 that I [06:14] landed on that and I read what it said [06:19] and it just seemed like it was kind of a [06:25] essentially it said, you know, that the [06:27] goal was to eliminate Jews in Israel, [06:30] but you know, worldwide And that [06:36] really started that was kind of the [06:38] beginning of the transformation that I [06:41] went through. [06:42] >> Now you witnessed some of the aftermath [06:44] of the October 7th massacre firsthand in [06:46] the morg. What can you share about what [06:48] you saw and experienced there? [06:51] Well, I you know, to be respectful of [06:55] the deceased, there was um the the ones [06:58] that really stick out to me, I I we [07:00] probably processed [07:03] uh and examined um [07:06] four to five individuals. Um Ariel [07:10] Goldmid was working with me and he's [07:13] he's the um chief medical examiner from [07:16] Pittsburgh. Um he was, you know, it was [07:19] the two of us kind of working together [07:22] and luckily he spoke Hebrew. Um and then [07:26] we had a scribe who happened to be um a [07:29] pediatrician who had volunteered [07:32] a doctor volunteering to be a scribe [07:35] for, you know, a doctor, which you know [07:38] is a little unusual, but um but she was [07:42] uh just a great great person. And it [07:47] turned out her name was Shira. [07:50] And [07:52] I I that evening I, you know, kind of [07:55] debriefed with my wife Erica, [07:58] um, you know, over the phone. And I [07:59] said, "Yeah, there's this great, you [08:02] know, pediatrician. She's, you know, [08:04] taking notes from everything we see, and [08:06] her name is Shar." And that's when [08:09] Erica, my wife, said, "Well, my Hebrew [08:12] name is Shira." So now I'm starting to, [08:16] you know, get more and more immersed in [08:19] things I didn't know about myself, kind [08:22] of transforming as well as about my [08:24] relationship with my wife and, you know, [08:28] learning in increments what it means to [08:30] be Jewish um and what the the state of [08:34] Israel means to Jews worldwide. And [08:38] um I guess I'm kind of digressing, but [08:40] what did I see? Um so you know Ariel and [08:44] I and Shira are working together. Sher [08:46] is taking notes. Ariel is you know um [08:50] kind of you know working with me. And in [08:54] the morning we would get probably [08:57] 30 you know deedants uh victims. Um and [09:02] then you know we would split those up [09:04] into three or four different rooms at [09:07] the morg. Um, and Ariel and I were in [09:11] one and then Julia Dea Garza and Ju uh [09:15] Judy Melanik were in the adjoining room [09:18] and then at in another room there was um [09:22] Dr. I think it's Dr. Nakam and then [09:25] Henoo would kind of assist but you know [09:28] our our goal was to give them a break [09:31] because for seven days straight they had [09:33] just been working literally 24 hours a [09:36] day. Um, and it was, you know, it was [09:40] tough. Um, but what did I see? Um, the [09:44] the ones that really stick out to me, [09:47] uh, there was a a young woman, um, uh, [09:51] slightly decomposed. And, you know, part [09:55] of what we do as forensic pathologists [09:57] is we, you know, we document injuries. [10:00] We figure out the cause of death and the [10:03] manner of death. um the you know the [10:06] manner of death was obvious. It was [10:08] homicide. Um but the other thing I think [10:11] that's uh not appreciated is that we [10:16] ascertain the identity of the [10:18] individual. So that means um you know [10:21] dental records, clothing, [10:25] jewelry, [10:26] um anything that might help a loved one [10:30] say you know oh that's the earring of my [10:32] daughter. And I just remember [10:36] it just so vivid and distinct just [10:39] pulling uh the jewelry out of the matted [10:43] hair of this young woman who had been [10:46] you know slaughtered. Um [10:49] and that that was yeah that I I you know [10:53] in all of my years of doing forensic [10:55] pathology and 3500 autopsies you know [10:58] cumulatively and working since 2005 [11:02] I've I've never seen the you know this [11:06] kind of carnage I guess I I guess I [11:10] could find words that are a little [11:12] softer but that's what it felt like to [11:14] me. It felt like premeditated carnage. [11:17] And and that was even before I saw any [11:20] of the videos that had, you know, came [11:23] out from the the GoPros that Hamas had, [11:26] you know, uh, [11:29] recorded of everything. The the other [11:32] case that um struck me was we got a a [11:38] body bag with uh what what what appeared [11:42] to be a part of [snorts] a foot. It it [11:45] turned out that um one of the victims [11:48] was Ruth Poretsz and she was a young [11:52] woman I think with cerebral pausy who [11:56] was in a wheelchair and she loved going [11:59] to music festivals with her father and [12:03] her father was just a loving kind man. [12:07] Um, and and I'm I'm I'm assuming he was [12:11] because he spent so much time with his [12:13] daughter and he provided her this, you [12:16] know, this means of expression, you [12:18] know, allowing her, assisting her, [12:21] accompanying her to these music [12:23] festivals. Um, well, it turned out that [12:27] that foot um belonged to Ruth and it [12:31] was, you know, burned. We took X-rays of [12:34] it. Uh, we ended up taking DNA [12:37] Um, but there was a a young [12:40] anthropologist who I called into the [12:42] room to assist and then she went back to [12:46] the a team of anthropologists that were [12:49] um in another kind of room of the of the [12:53] um morg uh putting things together and [12:57] she came back and she said this is a [12:59] foot of a you know a 17 to 18 year old [13:02] based on the um uh characteristics [13:06] of the the bone and the cartilage um [13:09] from the X-ray. Uh so that that was that [13:14] was that was really difficult for me and [13:17] and I I kind of pride myself on [13:22] not being kind of, you know, sucked into [13:25] the emotional aspect of my work because [13:27] it can be very difficult. Um and you [13:31] see, you know, some very horrific things [13:33] in my line of work. Um, but these were [13:37] the two incidents that really struck me. [13:42] >> This must have taken a great toll on [13:44] you. [13:45] >> Well, Michael, it wasn't [13:49] I I think that there was there's two [13:51] parts to this. And one part would be, [13:55] you know, what I saw in the morg. Um, [13:58] but then there is this other part. So, [14:01] you know, like Rip Van Winkle, you know, [14:03] I was kind of, you know, working at the [14:06] morg all day, you know, late into the [14:08] evening and then going back to the [14:11] Carlton by the sea, going to my room, [14:14] calling family, letting them know I'm [14:16] all right, and then, you know, missile [14:19] attacks [14:21] from from Gaza and and and yet I'm kind [14:26] of seeing in the media, [14:28] it's being portrayed in the New York [14:30] Times s as though they're victims. And [14:33] I'm like, well, wait a minute. They're [14:35] shooting rockets into a populated [14:39] civilian area. So, you know, my personal [14:42] transformation is taking place during [14:45] this time. Like I'm seeing things that [14:50] just, you know, for a guy from Seattle, [14:53] right, who has never seen a rocket [14:55] attack or anything like this before, um, [14:59] you know, the the air raid sirens go off [15:01] and you everyone runs to the, uh, you [15:05] know, the the stairwell of the Hotel [15:08] Carlton. [15:10] So that, you know, I'm I'm kind of [15:12] putting that together. And as like Riff [15:14] Van Winkle, I go back to uh my home and [15:19] we get together at an event and one of [15:23] our neighbors who is, [15:26] you know, specializes in post-traumatic [15:29] stress disorder, [15:31] um she sees me and she goes, you know, [15:33] oh, it must have been, you know, are you [15:36] doing okay [15:37] and is, you know, are how are you doing? [15:41] And I said, "Well, I I I just saw the [15:44] most horrific things, you know, and we [15:48] were under rocket attacks." And her [15:51] response was, "But what about the poor [15:54] gazins?" [15:56] And all of a sudden, I realized that [15:59] there was this narrative being, [16:02] you know, kind of created. I don't know [16:05] who's creating it. if it's Tik Tok or [16:08] Instagram or New York Times or [16:10] Washington Post or what's happening, but [16:14] it's not what I experienced. [16:17] And there seems to be this disconnect. [16:19] And when you start to see [16:23] and and I don't want to sound [16:24] conspiratorial, [16:26] I I trust the New York Times, [16:30] but they're definitely I began when I [16:32] started looking at the articles, I began [16:34] to see a very nuanced and subtle bias in [16:39] some of the articles. [16:41] And that kind of shook me to my core a [16:44] bit. And I was, you know, it it's [16:48] disconcerting. [16:50] One of the things that happened was I [16:52] had set up an interview when I was [16:54] scheduled to arrive at Los Angeles [16:56] International Airport uh with CNN. [17:01] And [17:02] you know, that was put together that I [17:04] would interview at the airport. And all [17:07] of a sudden that dissolved. But I think [17:10] the reason it dissolved was that the [17:11] narrative had kind of changed and maybe [17:15] they, you know, this this my account of [17:18] what occurred in the morg maybe didn't [17:22] dovetail with what was being, you know, [17:25] kind of transmitted across the airwaves [17:27] and through media. [17:30] After everything that you witnessed, [17:32] what do you want people around the world [17:33] to understand about October the 7th and [17:36] the people whose lives were changed [17:38] forever? [17:42] that um [17:46] you can be [17:48] a 62-year-old man, as I was at that [17:51] time, and have some very [17:56] deep-seated feelings about whatever [17:59] issue you think you've come to truly [18:02] understand. [18:04] And you can experience something like [18:07] going to Israel and being immersed in [18:12] the atrocities, you know, seeing [18:14] firsthand witnessing what was going on. [18:18] And then, you know, being on the ground [18:19] and seeing rocket attacks that [18:22] there is this story that didn't, you [18:27] know, jive with what my upbringing [18:30] upbringing was, you know, my political [18:32] upbringing. I um you know I I would call [18:35] myself a lefty progressive you know and [18:38] that started in college uh in [18:40] undergraduate and you know progressed [18:43] and and you know I think I [18:48] what was it that made me not care for [18:51] Israel you know I I remember reading a [18:54] story that [18:56] um [18:58] in in some you know left-wing magazine [19:00] that Israel would come up with ways to [19:04] control crowds, you know, nets and, you [19:08] know, um, less than lethal weapons, and [19:10] then they would ship that technology to [19:12] South Africa. Well, I don't know if [19:15] that's true anymore. Um, because that [19:18] was something that had, you know, that [19:21] was what gave me my my ill feelings [19:24] towards Israel in part, you know, [19:27] stories like that. But then here I am [19:31] seeing Israel firsthand, seeing the [19:33] rockets, um, and you know, seeing how [19:41] Hamas, [19:43] you know, the terrorists, these young [19:45] men, you know, infiltrated [19:49] Kabutim, the Nova Festival, and just [19:53] committed these terrible atrocities. And [19:57] and I think I started out by saying it [19:59] was one of the most powerful experiences [20:01] of my life. And maybe this is a little [20:04] narcissistic, but it was powerful in the [20:06] sense that it changed me and changed my [20:08] views of Israel. [20:10] And [20:13] um [20:15] you know, there's a second part to it. [20:17] You know, part of what we do as forensic [20:19] pathologists is we we see what's in the [20:22] morg. we see the, you know, the deedent, [20:25] we have some medical history, but a big [20:28] part of forensic pathology is um the [20:30] scene, the scene investigation. [20:33] And unfortunately [20:35] um the scene investigation was missing [20:39] because we weren't going out to the [20:41] sites. We couldn't afford to in terms of [20:43] time and processing victims. Um, so in [20:46] May of 2024, you know, just a few months [20:50] after, um, uh, Brewery Brewya Adena, um, [20:55] from Tao, uh, you know, um, I called her [20:59] and she she actually asked me, would you [21:02] mind talking to my class on mass [21:04] fatality, mass disaster? And kind of [21:07] tongue and cheek, I said, you know, [21:08] brewery, I would I would love to do [21:10] that, but I would just ask that, you [21:12] know, maybe we could arrange a tour of [21:15] the scenes, you know, just to see where [21:18] these victims came from to give me some [21:21] context. And [21:25] very generously, she put together [21:29] um a dayong [21:31] uh tour. We visited Far Aza. We visited [21:36] Stero um and we visited the Nova Music [21:40] Festival site and [21:44] um it it kind of that really helped me [21:48] um process what was going on in my head. [21:52] Um so that that was very helpful. Um [21:56] yeah. 3 years later, as the world moves [21:59] further away from October 7th, why do [22:02] you believe firsthand testimony like [22:04] yours still matters? [22:06] >> Well, you know, on this is the first [22:08] time I've really had a chance to talk [22:10] about it. So, yeah, it's it's a bit [22:13] cathartic, Michael, and I really thank [22:14] you for this. Um [22:18] I [22:19] I am so grateful that I had this [22:22] experience and now [22:24] you know in my personal life I [22:26] understand my wife better Shira or Erica [22:30] um and you know I understand [22:35] her positions [22:37] and you know it's it's easy to talk [22:40] about now before [22:42] uh October 14th [22:45] Uh, you know, these were difficult [22:46] conversations. Um, Erica is a Zionist. [22:50] Um, all of her friends are Zionists um [22:53] from her hometown in Minnesota. Um, and [22:57] so now I I'm pro I probably want to talk [23:01] about it a little too much, you know, [23:04] and about, you know, what's going on in [23:06] the media and what's going on uh, you [23:09] know, on social media platforms and, you [23:12] know, uh, that sort of thing. [23:16] >> And finally, if there's one thing you [23:17] want people watching this interview to [23:19] remember about what you witnessed after [23:22] October 7th, what would it be? that [23:25] things aren't always the way you think [23:27] they are and you have to be a very [23:30] careful consumer of information. [23:34] Uh, [23:36] and if you can, you need to be boots on [23:40] the ground and I guess actually [23:44] experience what the people in Israel [23:47] experience. And I mean, if we could do a [23:50] birthright for 60-year-old white guys [23:54] from Los Angeles who don't really like [23:58] Israel, I I think that might be a start. [24:02] I I don't know what that looks like, but [24:05] my trip to Israel changed me [24:09] for the better. Oh, so much for the [24:11] better. I mean, I'm not I I I I love [24:15] reading. I love the media. um you know [24:19] from sources but now I'm a very careful [24:22] consumer of what that is and yeah [24:26] >> Dr. Wigrin, thank you. Thank you for [24:28] coming to Israel when we needed friends [24:30] to stand with us. Thank you for bearing [24:32] witness to the horrors of October 7th [24:34] and for continuing to speak about what [24:36] you saw. We're deeply grateful to you [24:38] for sharing your story with us today. [24:40] Thank you very much. [24:42] >> You're welcome. Thanks for having me, [24:44] Michael. Much appreciated.
