Transcript [00:00] Yaakov Katz: We can lower the toxicity. [00:02] We can lower the temperature. I think anyone who cares for Israel understands [00:07] that the current political environment in America... [00:11] You have, what, 430-something races in the House, [00:14] another 35 right now in this cycle in the Senate. [00:18] Israel is an issue in every [00:20] single election. It comes up. [00:22] Ben Chertoff: Disproportionately so. [00:23] Yaakov Katz: Yeah. I mean, that's horrible for Israel. [00:26] We don't wanna be a football that you kick around in American politics. [00:31] We need quiet. Keep us out of the room. [00:34] Right? Don't talk about us so much. [00:39] Ben Chertoff: This is The Honest Take, the show that goes past the headlines to find [00:43] out what's actually true about Israel and about the people covering it. [00:47] I'm Ben Chertoff, and my guest today is Yaakov Katz, [00:50] editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post from 2016 to 2023, [00:55] a senior fellow at the Jewish People Policy Institute, and, with Amir Bohbot, [01:00] author of While Israel Slept: How Hamas Surprised the Most Powerful Military in [01:06] the Middle East. Israelis vote this week for the first time since October 7. [01:12] Today, we're asking what's really on the ballot and how to read the results from [01:16] wherever you are. [01:22] One quick thing first: if you haven't subscribed, take a second and do it now, [01:27] and if you can spare a moment, give the show a rating. [01:30] It really is how new listeners find us. [01:33] All right, here's Yaakov. [01:40] Israel goes to the polls this week, and it's the first national election since [01:45] October 7. Yaakov Katz says that makes it more than a vote on the government. [01:50] This is the coalition that was in office that morning, [01:53] so the election is also a question about accountability. [01:57] But he doesn't pretend that the picture is simple. [02:01] He calls October 7 a coin with two sides: the failures that led to it, [02:06] and everything that came after. [02:08] Hamas, a shadow of its former self. [02:10] Hezbollah, degraded. Iran's nuclear facilities, damaged. [02:15] Compare Israel today with October 6, 2023, and he'll tell you the country is safer [02:21] and stronger militarily. That's a big part of why so many Israelis who are angry at [02:27] this government may also still vote for it. [02:30] Yaakov has his own view on how this election should go, [02:33] and he says so plainly, as his opinion. [02:36] What he also does is lay out what voters see. [02:39] When Israelis vote, the question is, who's going to keep me safe? [02:43] We get into how Israeli elections actually work, [02:47] why left and right don't explain this race, [02:49] and why nobody may know the next government on election night. [02:53] We talk about Donald Trump's endorsement, and about what he thinks American Jews [02:57] misunderstand about having a Jewish state. [03:00] And we talk about the coverage. [03:03] He ran The Jerusalem Post through five elections in three and a half years, [03:07] and his verdict on how the world's media explains Israeli politics is two words: [03:13] mostly wrong. A note before we start: Yaakov has written that he thinks it's [03:17] time for a change in government, and he once served as an adviser to Naftali [03:22] Bennett, who's on the ballot. HonestReporting is nonpartisan. [03:26] We're not here to tell anyone how to vote. [03:28] We're here to understand what's at stake. [03:31] Yaakov Katz, welcome to The Honest Take. [03:34] Yaakov Katz: Great to be with you, Ben. [03:35] Ben Chertoff: So this is the first election since October 7. [03:39] What does it feel like on the ground these last few days of the campaigns? [03:45] Yaakov Katz: Well, obviously, Israeli elections tend to be quite animated, [03:50] and people get emotional and excited. [03:55] And I think that this election in particular — [03:58] there's a lot of different adjectives that people are using: most consequential, [04:01] most fateful, most historic. It's probably a bit of all of the above, but primarily, [04:06] I would say, because of the fact that this is really the first election since October [04:10] 7, and this is the government that was in office when October 7 took place. [04:16] To some extent, this government is responsible for what happened when Hamas [04:22] invaded Israel that morning at 6:29 a.m. [04:25] It was them who set the policies. [04:27] It was their judicial reform in the year prior that, at least in my mind, [04:32] divided the country and created the vulnerability that was taken advantage of [04:36] by our enemies. And this is going to be a referendum, not just on the government, [04:42] obviously, also on Benjamin Netanyahu and his long career as prime minister, [04:48] definitely at least since 2009, almost uninterrupted except for a brief 18-month [04:53] interlude when the Bennett-Lapid government was in office from '21 to '22. [04:58] But it's also going to be a question about October 7: do we want to see, [05:04] as a people and as a collective, a degree of accountability that this government has [05:09] refused until now to take at all? [05:13] Ben Chertoff: You've also said that a lot of undecided voters you talk to still see [05:19] Netanyahu as someone who can keep Israelis safe. [05:24] Why does that survive October 7? [05:26] Yaakov Katz: No, I mean, look. October 7... [05:30] I wrote a book, While Israel Slept, which looks at how October 7 happened, right? [05:35] And the lead-up to it: the state of mind, the policies, the strategies, [05:41] the reliance on technology, obviously the 24 to 36 hours preceding the Hamas attack. [05:46] What went wrong? Why was the intelligence that was there not interpreted correctly [05:51] and understood to be what it was, which was a Hamas attack? [05:55] And this has to do with a whole policy of containment, [05:59] which basically meant Israel believed in kicking the can down the road, [06:02] trying to avoid wars as much as possible, trying not to find itself in a big [06:08] conflict, but if anything, small ones, and then trying to prolong as much as possible [06:12] the periods of quiet and peace in between. [06:15] But I think that for a lot of people — [06:19] and this is true, I agree with this as well — October 7 is a coin, [06:22] if I could call it that, with two sides. [06:24] One is the failures that led to that horrible morning, [06:28] and obviously the war that has now been going on pretty much uninterrupted for the [06:32] last three years, although at different intensity levels. [06:36] But there's another side to that, and that is the reengineering of the Middle East. [06:39] That is how Israel has turned the tables on its enemies, [06:42] and there's no question that we have. [06:45] I mean, Hamas is a shadow of its former self. [06:47] Hezbollah is significantly degraded. [06:49] And even Iran — as we talk, there's increased tension now of maybe another [06:55] kind of clash, whenever that might happen — but even Iran has had its nuclear [07:00] facilities significantly damaged, its military degraded, [07:03] its top leadership decapitated. [07:06] I mean, if you look at Israel and you ask yourself just a simple question — I think, [07:11] objectively speaking, if I compare where we were from a military, security, [07:15] safety perspective on October 6, 2023, to where we are today, [07:19] I think we're safer and more secure and stronger militarily. [07:22] But I also look at the fact that these conflicts continue. [07:28] There's no resolution that we see yet in sight. [07:30] The country is still very much divided. [07:33] And the fundamental, I'd say foundational, issues that were there back on October 7 [07:40] are still here, and they have not been taken care of, [07:43] and the country has not been able to heal yet and to move on and try to chart a new [07:49] course forward. [07:50] Ben Chertoff: How much of the voting bloc do you think is undecided right now? [07:54] Yaakov Katz: I could tell you what the polls are showing: [07:57] a bit under 10% or so undecided voters. [08:01] It's a question of where they come from, which is— [08:03] Ben Chertoff: That was my next question. [08:04] Where do they come from politically? [08:05] Yaakov Katz: So a lot of them are former coalition voters, right? [08:10] And the numbers are pretty obvious. [08:12] If you look at the coalition right now — that's the Likud party led by Netanyahu, [08:17] Ben Gvir's party, the Bezalel Smotrich Religious Zionist party, [08:21] and then the two ultra-Orthodox parties. [08:23] If now, in the coalition, they're about 65 seats, then why are they now, [08:28] according to polls, only getting 51, 52? [08:30] So suddenly they've lost upwards of 10 seats. [08:33] Where did they go? [08:36] Some people have left and moved over to the other side, [08:39] and they found a new home in Gadi Eisenkot's Yashar party or in Naftali [08:44] Bennett's party. [08:46] But a lot are still somewhere in the middle, [08:49] and they've yet to make the full transition from — [08:53] let's use the terms that are used publicly and in the media — [08:57] they've yet to transition from the right-wing bloc, the Netanyahu bloc, [09:01] to the so-called center-left bloc, or I would call it the opposition bloc, [09:06] led by Eisenkot. They've yet to make that move because it's hard for them [09:09] ideologically, politically, from a tribal — if we could call it that — [09:16] kind of self-identification. People who I talk to, [09:20] who all their lives and their parents' lives were Likud voters, right? [09:24] It's unimaginable that suddenly they're gonna vote for someone else, [09:28] even if they feel inside that Netanyahu let them down. [09:31] Take this one conversation, which is anecdotal, but I think it reflects a trend [09:37] that I hear and see and you read about, [09:39] with a good friend of mine who was complaining to me about how the [09:45] ultra-Orthodox think this country is theirs, and they could do whatever they [09:47] want, and they could block roads, and they're taking too much of the government [09:51] funding, and they're not producing and working and not serving in the military. [09:55] He's going on and on and on. And I said, "Okay. [09:57] Who are you gonna vote for?" And he said, "Netanyahu." [10:00] So I said, "Do you not see the contradiction in what you're saying? [10:04] In other words, Netanyahu's government is with the ultra-Orthodox. [10:07] He's going to give the ultra-Orthodox again the carte blanche that you're [10:10] kvetching and complaining about. [10:12] Why do you think it will be different?" [10:13] He said, "You know what, Yaakov? [10:14] My values are with Netanyahu." And I said again, [10:18] "But I don't understand what you're saying. [10:19] You just said your values aren't with Netanyahu, [10:20] because you're upset about the ultra-Orthodox situation." [10:23] I think you have a lot of people like that, [10:25] and I think that tension has a lot of people kind of trying to figure things [10:30] out. But there's another piece to the puzzle, [10:33] and this is where Netanyahu's political brilliance comes into play. [10:37] I think his greatest success as a politician has been throughout — [10:43] I would say '96 to '99, he had his first term, then he was replaced. [10:48] When he came back in '09, he very much succeeded in entrenching this idea within [10:53] Israeli society, and definitely the electorate, that only he can keep Israel [10:58] safe. And he is the best equipped, most capable. [11:02] He can work with America. He knows the world. [11:04] He can manipulate — [11:06] that's not the right word — but he can engineer situations in the world to [11:12] advance Israel's interests, whether it's America or Europe or Russia or China, [11:16] you name it. And when Israelis go to the polls, [11:19] they ask themselves really the ultimate question: Who's gonna keep me safe? [11:25] And Netanyahu is a commodity that they know, even with the mistakes, [11:28] even with the flaws, even with the problems. [11:30] And the other guys, they feel, are something of a gamble. [11:35] Now, even when I say that, it sounds crazy, because — what do you mean? [11:38] Gadi Eisenkot: years in uniform, IDF chief of staff, lost a son in the war, [11:44] two nephews in the war. A guy who knows... [11:46] I mean, he's been shot in the head. [11:48] He knows war. He knows how to make tough decisions. [11:50] He knows how to send people across enemy lines into battle. [11:54] And this is where Netanyahu's political maneuvers come into play: [12:00] the delegitimization of the Israeli Arab parties. [12:05] He's been so consistent with this message, and it's effective, [12:08] that Gadi Eisenkot has no path to a victory without leaning on or relying on [12:14] or merging with Arab parties. And that is something that is beyond the pale today [12:19] for Israelis. And you could argue that that's wrong — [12:22] Israeli Arabs are part of the country, etcetera, etcetera. [12:26] Fine. We could talk about that for a long time, [12:29] but I think emotionally it's very difficult for people to see that. [12:34] And Netanyahu beating at that for so many months now has been effective. [12:38] Ben Chertoff: And that's another consequence of October 7, right? [12:40] I mean, that wasn't necessarily the case before October 7. [12:43] There had been coalition governments [12:47] with Lapid and Bennett? [12:49] Yaakov Katz: Yeah. Lapid and Bennett were the first who really, in my mind... [12:53] And I was very supportive of that government at the time, [12:55] because in my mind, when I think of Zionism and I think of what Israel has [12:59] been trying to achieve in almost 80 years of statehood, [13:02] and I look at the Declaration of Independence back in 1948 — [13:08] equality for all people who live here — I think there's no better illustration of [13:15] what we've been trying to achieve, which is seeing Israeli Arabs, [13:18] 2.2 million people in this country, equal. [13:21] They should have equal rights just like me, and for the most part, they do. [13:25] Be part of the decision-making apparatus, be part of government, [13:28] be hand in hand with us in building up the state. [13:32] And it was a nice idea, and I think it was brave of all those people to do it, [13:37] but it didn't work. So you have, on the one hand, the fact that it didn't work. [13:40] Now let's just open up parentheses for a second, Ben. [13:44] The Ra'am party, led by Mansour Abbas, which joined with Bennett and Lapid back [13:49] in the summer of 2021, when they formed what was known as the change government, [13:53] was part of the original 61. So in the Knesset, which is 120 seats, [13:58] a majority is 61. What that ultimately means is that for any vote, [14:04] for any decision, for any piece of legislation, to pass the budget, if, [14:08] God forbid, you go to war, you are relying on those people to continue to maintain [14:13] your government. That is complicated because, as you know and we all know, [14:18] Israel is unfortunately a country that finds itself occasionally at war. [14:22] And then it becomes complicated. [14:24] Can you rely on an Arab party to give you the [14:29] political support that any government would need to go fight Hamas? [14:33] Right? I mean, let's imagine just for a moment October 7 happened under the [14:38] Bennett-Lapid government. What would Mansour Abbas have done? [14:40] Maybe in the beginning he would have supported it and said, "Yeah, of course, [14:43] this was horrific." And he did condemn it at the time. [14:47] But a few weeks in, when Israel's bombing Gaza, [14:49] would he have been able to stay in the government? [14:51] So I think that has led at least me — and I hear this from a lot of other people — [14:56] to say, listen, we still support having Israeli Arabs in the government, [14:58] but I would do it from 62 and up. [15:01] So not of the core 61, because you need to have a government that can be stable and [15:08] able to make those tough life-and-death decisions that are about war, [15:12] that unfortunately come our way more frequently than I would like to see. [15:15] But the facts are today that, definitely after October 7, like you mentioned, [15:23] Israeli Jews are very suspicious and very [15:27] security-focused. There's a breakdown of trust, [15:34] and you can't ignore it. People could get upset at it. [15:39] They could say it's not right, but that's the reality. [15:42] And it's the reality to some extent, if I might say, [15:45] because I think we haven't had a moment to breathe and to pause and to heal as a [15:52] nation from this war, for two main reasons. [15:55] One is it's not really over yet, right? [15:58] I mean, we're not actively fighting in the same way with Hamas and Hezbollah right [16:02] now, but you've got troops, thousands, over the lines in Lebanon, in Gaza, [16:08] in Syria. Hamas is not disarming. [16:10] Hezbollah's still there. Iran, we're talking about another war with. [16:14] So the war is not over, number one. [16:17] And number two, we haven't had a commission of inquiry. [16:19] And a commission of inquiry, which can really investigate and study and learn the [16:23] lessons of what happened, is really important for closure — to be able to say, [16:28] "Okay, I've learned the lessons. [16:29] I've now applied them. Now I can breathe and move on." [16:33] Ben Chertoff: That's something that Gadi Eisenkot has been vocal about bringing [16:37] about, a commission of inquiry, right? Or— [16:40] Yaakov Katz: Everyone in the opposition. [16:42] And this is where I think you have wall-to-wall support. [16:45] They say that the first decision they will make, [16:48] if they are able to form a coalition, [16:50] is to immediately establish a commission of inquiry. [16:53] A commission of inquiry, you don't need... [16:55] The state appoints a commission of inquiry. [16:57] The one that, by Israeli legislation, is establishing is a vote of ministers. [17:03] So it's not that you need a majority in the Knesset. [17:05] And, of course, if you're a coalition and everyone agrees with it, [17:08] then they're gonna do it. Netanyahu has refused calls and pleas, essentially, [17:14] to form a commission of inquiry, I think because he's nervous of what that [17:18] commission would eventually discover. [17:21] But he's made an effort to delegitimize the process, [17:24] because according to Israeli law, once the government — the cabinet, the ministers — [17:28] vote to establish a commission of inquiry, the mandate to appoint the panel is given [17:34] to the president, basically the chief justice, of the Supreme Court. [17:38] Now this ties in — if we didn't get our listeners and viewers dizzy already from [17:43] everything — this ties in to judicial reform, [17:46] which was the year preceding October 7. [17:52] Ben Chertoff: And so people don't get too dizzy here, [17:54] I wanna just kind of define our terms for the American audience and lay out how the [18:00] election works. So, Yaakov, feel free to jump in if I miss anything or get this [18:06] wrong. Israelis don't vote directly for a prime minister. [18:10] There aren't any districts. It's not like the U.S. [18:13] You vote for a party. And again, unlike the U.S., there are multiple parties. [18:18] It's not just a two-party system. [18:21] And the Knesset's 120 seats, as you had said, are split by national vote share, [18:27] and each party needs only 3.25% to get in. [18:32] And it takes 61 seats to govern. [18:34] And after the vote, the president asks whoever has the best shot at building a [18:40] coalition, and that person doesn't have to lead the biggest party. [18:44] So, essentially, [18:45] we might not know what the government looks like on election night. [18:50] Yaakov Katz: Oh, I'm pretty sure we won't. [18:52] I mean, based on polls at least, right now we're at a deadlock, a stalemate. [18:57] If we look at the Netanyahu coalition that I mentioned before, [19:00] the current government, they are at about 51, 52. [19:04] The Gadi Eisenkot coalition, or opposition parties — which is him, Bennett, [19:09] Liberman and Yair Golan's Democrats — they're at about 52, 53. [19:14] The rest are going to the Arab parties, essentially. [19:18] Neither has a path. Now, could something still change in these last few days of the [19:24] campaign, and suddenly we'll have a landslide for one side or the other? [19:28] Obviously, anything can still happen, but it doesn't look that way. [19:31] And then it gets interesting, but complicated, because at this point — [19:37] you're right — the president meets with all the parties and says, [19:42] "Who do you recommend to be prime minister?" [19:44] So party X says Netanyahu, party Y says Eisenkot, and it goes back and forth. [19:49] And then he counts up the numbers. [19:51] And like you said, it's not necessarily who is the biggest party. [19:54] It is who has the most recommenders, right? [19:57] People who are recommending that individual. [19:59] Then usually the president taps that person and gives him or her the mandate to [20:05] try to form a coalition. They have about 30 days to do so. [20:07] They can get, I think, a 15-day extension. [20:10] And then after that period, if they fail, he meets with all the parties once again, [20:14] hears again what they have to say, and then he can give it to somebody else. [20:18] He gives it to another guy, usually from the other side. [20:20] They try for 30 days plus the 15. [20:23] And then if no one is able to form a coalition, essentially, [20:26] Israel goes to a new election. This has happened a number of times in recent [20:30] years. You remember in April 2019, we went to our first of five elections in the span [20:35] of three and a half years. So it's not a foreign idea for Israel, but in my mind, [20:43] I think it would be a catastrophe for [20:45] Israel to roll again into another election. [20:49] Ben Chertoff: Americans map Israeli politics onto left and right, [20:53] because that's what Americans are familiar with, but that's not what this election is [20:58] really about. And I don't think that explains the coalitions accurately, [21:02] or Netanyahu himself. What is the core of what this [21:08] election is about? [21:11] Yaakov Katz: It's a great question. [21:12] I mean, first of all, there's two parts to, I think, what you just said. [21:16] One is, this isn't a right or left issue, right? [21:20] There's a lot of people who I talk to in Israel and around the world who are like, [21:23] "Listen, we just need him to go, and all of Israel's problems will be solved." [21:27] No. That's naive, if not a little stupid. [21:31] I'm sorry. Because if I go to Gadi Eisenkot and I say, "Hey, [21:35] what are you gonna do in Gaza?" — he's not pulling the troops out of Gaza right away. [21:39] By the way, you're right. You said right-left. [21:42] The issue used to be the Palestinians: [21:45] two-state solution or no two-state solution. [21:48] Now everybody says no two-state solution. [21:50] Gadi Eisenkot said just a couple weeks ago, a two-state solution is delusional. [21:53] Naftali Bennett has long been an opponent of a two-state solution. [21:56] Avigdor Liberman is probably the only leader of a party who has rolled out [22:02] the crumbs of what could be a diplomatic kind of vision for the Palestinians, [22:07] and that talks about getting the Jordanians to deploy inside the West Bank [22:11] and giving them responsibility. [22:12] So, I mean, it's far from being a two-state solution. [22:14] No one's even talking about it. [22:16] No one believes it's possible. So then why aren't they getting along? [22:19] Right? What is preventing [22:22] Gadi Eisenkot, Naftali Bennett, Avigdor Liberman and Benjamin Netanyahu from [22:26] forming a coalition? And the answer, tragically, [22:29] is it's about the personalities. [22:31] They don't trust one another. They can't stand one another. [22:34] Everyone's finger-pointing at one another. [22:36] And there's valid reasons why — I'm not gonna say there aren't. [22:41] Netanyahu's trial, the corruption allegations, the fact that he can't be [22:47] trusted. He's backstabbed partners of coalitions past, and October 7, [22:51] and so much more. But I think we do have to look forward. [22:55] And if the option, when I think about it, is to go to another election or form this [22:59] sort of unity government, I wanna avoid another election. [23:03] And I think that Israelis, when they're going to the polls right now, [23:07] it is that question that I said before — who do I feel is going to keep me safe? — [23:13] but it's also gonna be a big referendum on Netanyahu. [23:19] A lot of elections — the one after he was first indicted, [23:22] the one once he was already on trial — we could say a lot of those were his big [23:27] fight for survival. This one definitely is. [23:32] You have to remember that for Netanyahu right now, if he loses this election, [23:37] if there suddenly is a landslide... [23:39] Let's think of the consequences. [23:41] He's out of the government. He might stay in the opposition, but either way, [23:46] his trial continues, and there's a chance he could get convicted. [23:50] Now, he'll fight it, but there is a chance. [23:52] There will be a commission of inquiry that will go after him, right? [23:58] And that will become his legacy. [24:01] So to some extent, Netanyahu really, right now, [24:05] is fighting for political survival, for potential personal freedom, [24:10] and for the legacy that we will all remember him by. [24:14] Ben Chertoff: So, back to the commission of inquiry that you've been talking about. [24:18] Why has that not been as prominent a feature of this campaign? [24:25] Yaakov Katz: So some of the party leaders on the left or center-left tried to make [24:29] it the big issue. There have been attempts a few times by different parties to make a [24:33] number of the issues the issue. [24:35] So, first was the Haredi draft — the induction into the military of the [24:40] ultra-Orthodox, 13% of the population here in Israel, about 1.3, 1.4 million people. [24:46] For the most part, they don't serve in the military. [24:49] Right now you're speaking about 70,000 to 80,000 men who are of draft age, [24:56] and they're not serving. And this government has been trying to find them a [25:01] way out and continue that exemption. [25:03] That's a big issue, because that inequity has really been felt viscerally, right, [25:09] by people who have reservists and families. [25:12] So many people have been killed in this war, taken hostage in this war, [25:16] paid a very painful price of being hundreds of days away from their homes, [25:19] their families, their businesses, because they're serving in the reserves, [25:22] because we're short on the number of soldiers. [25:24] People tried to make that the issue. [25:26] Didn't catch. People tried to make the October 7 commission of inquiry the issue. [25:29] Didn't catch. And people tried to make it "We need to repair and fix the country." [25:34] Also hasn't really caught on. I think that this is, again, [25:37] because Netanyahu has been able to dominate the political conversation. [25:41] He's been able to steer it in a specific direction and make it more about — [25:46] whenever journalists meet with the politicians — "Well, [25:48] are you gonna sit with the Arabs? [25:49] Who are you gonna sit with? Are you gonna make a coalition with this guy, [25:51] or make a coalition with that guy?" [25:53] That is the Netanyahu effect on the political discourse. [25:59] Ben Chertoff: You and your coauthor wrote While Israel Slept. [26:03] What did you find when you researched that book? [26:07] Yaakov Katz: I mean, look, I think, like a lot of people around the world and [26:11] definitely in this country, we saw what happened on October 7 and were shocked, [26:17] right? How did this happen? There were obviously the tactical, [26:21] operational mistakes and failures that broke down or were uncovered that morning. [26:26] And those you could understand, right? [26:29] Sophisticated attack. Hamas got through. [26:32] It was able to surprise the military. [26:36] The IDF was unprepared. [26:40] Where was the air force? Why did it take so long to deploy? [26:42] Lots of operational answers we could talk about. [26:44] But there was a bigger question that we felt had to be answered. [26:48] And this was — when you think about 9/11 for a moment, and you go back to 2001, [26:54] there were people who knew of al-Qaeda. [26:56] But how many Americans knew what al-Qaeda was? [27:00] Very few, if any, right? In Israel, everyone knows what Hamas is. [27:05] I mean, we've been fighting with Hamas for decades. [27:08] If you go from 2005 till October 7 — when we pulled out of Gaza, right, [27:14] in the summer of 2005 — we had fought a war on average with Hamas every two years. [27:18] So this wasn't like we didn't know there's this bad guy over there who's bent on our [27:23] destruction, who's trying to develop the capabilities to do so, [27:27] who periodically attacks us through a tunnel, through a rocket, [27:30] through a burning kite, whatever. [27:32] We know they're there. We know they're amassing weapons. [27:34] We know their weaponry is getting better. [27:37] I mean, if I go back to 2005, the rockets could barely hit the area around Gaza. [27:43] When I jump to 2014, they're striking in Tel Aviv, right? [27:48] So they're improving their capabilities. [27:51] We all see that in the country, and no one thinks to themselves, [27:55] "We gotta go take these guys out before something happens." [27:59] And that raises a very deep question about Israel, which is why. [28:04] Why did we not do that? Why did we embrace this policy of containment? [28:09] Ben Chertoff: Is that the konseptziya? [28:10] Yaakov Katz: That would be the konseptziya. [28:11] Yeah, exactly. It's because then, with the konseptziya — the concept, [28:15] or the paradigm, this, I call it, belief or faith system that we had — [28:19] it worked on a couple of principles. [28:22] Number one was, Hamas does not want war. [28:26] Hamas wants economic prosperity. [28:28] Just keep sending them money. Keep letting their workers into Israel. [28:31] Keep that, and we'll keep things quiet. [28:32] The second is, we know they're there, but we can handle it. [28:39] We have the best technology. We have better soldiers. [28:42] We have superior intelligence. All that will stand if one day something does [28:47] happen. And it all broke down. So the question that we looked at is, [28:52] how does a konseptziya get created? [28:55] Right? So we went back to the 1980s, to when Hamas was first founded in Gaza. [29:01] We spoke with the Israeli officers — because then Israel was in control of [29:04] Gaza — who were on the ground, who saw those original kinda street signs that [29:10] were plastered on walls announcing the establishment of this new movement, [29:14] which no one really knew what it was. [29:17] Maybe there was something along the way that could have been done differently that [29:21] would have changed the trajectory of where we found ourselves. [29:24] And it's important, I think, to really learn and study this, [29:28] because it could happen again. [29:31] Ben Chertoff: The participation in Israeli elections, the voter turnout, [29:35] is very different from America. [29:38] Can you talk about [29:41] the difference in kind of civic-mindedness, [29:43] and how closely people follow this and participate? [29:48] Yaakov Katz: So in America, remind me, [29:50] it's about 50% or so? Or— [29:52] Ben Chertoff: If that. [29:53] Yaakov Katz: Right? I mean, it's low. [29:55] In Israel, we look at around 70% voter turnout. [30:00] And I wish it would be more. I think more people should be participating, [30:06] but I think it's because it's real here, right? [30:10] We, the people, are making decisions to put in place [30:17] leaders, political leaders, who we know will make life-and-death decisions that [30:21] will affect us literally, right? [30:25] I think of October 7. I think of my family, my small family: my wife and I, [30:31] our four kids. The morning of October 7, we didn't know right away, [30:35] but we knew people who had been killed. [30:37] We knew people who had been taken hostage, and we're one family in Israel. [30:42] Everyone throughout this war has been impacted by this, [30:46] whether personally or by extension. [30:48] And that is something that, when you think about who you're gonna vote for, [30:53] you know this will impact you. Will I have rockets flying over my head tomorrow? [30:58] Or will something else change? So that makes this real and raw. [31:02] And I think that as a result, Israelis say, "This is how we make decisions. [31:07] This is how I can make myself matter," and they go out and they vote. [31:12] And I think that this coming election, [31:13] there is anticipation that voter turnout will be higher, [31:16] and maybe substantially higher, [31:19] because of everything we said before about how consequential and important this [31:23] election is going to be. [31:28] Ben Chertoff: If you're gonna play out what the consequences of this election [31:31] are — people are calling it possibly the most consequential election — [31:34] what are the consequences that people worry about on both sides? [31:38] Yaakov Katz: Well, I think their safety is number one. [31:42] The other issues that people are thinking about are obviously cost of living. [31:45] They're definitely thinking about the inequity, and the fact that there is not a [31:49] shared burden of what we have to do here in this country, and serve— [31:54] Ben Chertoff: The Haredi draft, and— [31:56] Yaakov Katz: Yeah. I have a daughter serving in the IDF, in the navy. [32:02] She's giving of her time and her energy and her physical being to serve this [32:08] country, while there are people in my own family who don't serve, [32:11] who are her same age. They don't serve because they're Haredi. [32:15] That is something that a lot of people are very upset about, [32:18] and that is guiding a lot of their votes. [32:20] There are people who are concerned that the Palestinian issue might come back in [32:25] one way or another. And we look at what's happening in the world, [32:27] and we see the sanctions that the United Kingdom and France have imposed on Israel. [32:32] Israelis look at what's happening in the United States and the shift — [32:37] which is most evident in the Democratic Party, [32:40] but you're seeing it also in the Republican Party — [32:42] and they're concerned about what that means in terms of political and diplomatic [32:46] isolation. So that's another issue. [32:49] Iran, obviously, with its pursuit of a nuclear weapon: how can they be stopped? [32:54] And Donald Trump, who has seemingly been on Israel's side on that issue, [32:59] has two years left in office. Who would be the best-suited person to work with him on [33:04] this issue over the next two years? [33:07] Judicial reform is another issue that, for some people, [33:10] is still something that truly troubles them, [33:13] and it's unfinished business for this coalition. [33:17] If they could, they would come back and change it. [33:19] So I think there's a lot that people come with, but there's one other thing, [33:22] which maybe overtakes it all, and that is identity. [33:27] Right? Israelis still very much are a divided people [33:34] of mixed tribes, if we could call it that. [33:37] Most obvious are, I would say, four groups that we have in the country. [33:43] The secular Israelis — a lot of them built the country — [33:47] from the center of the country, for the most part carrying the socioeconomic and [33:53] military burden, but more of the liberal left. [33:58] You have then the religious — the national religious — [34:02] the people who believe in the holiness of the land, [34:05] that this is the continuation of the redemption, [34:09] and they are for the most part supportive of expansionism in the West Bank, [34:14] in Judea and Samaria. You have the Israeli Arab group. [34:19] And you have the ultra-Orthodox group. [34:22] Now, obviously, it's much more complicated, in that people cross lines. [34:27] That identity — and if I go even deeper into it, you have the Ashkenazim, [34:32] and you have the Sephardim. And that still is something that's real for a lot of [34:36] people. So those identity issues, you won't tell me who to vote for. [34:42] You won't... In other words, when I think of my friend who said that to me about the [34:47] ultra-Orthodox, but then, "Bibi is my guy" — [34:50] that is an identity issue, right? [34:53] He votes Likud. His family supports Likud, because they supported his family. [34:59] A Moroccan immigrant family that came here. [35:02] Ben Chertoff: And the irony is that Likud was typically a Sephardi, Mizrahi party, [35:07] but Eisenkot is from Morocco. [35:10] Yaakov Katz: Yeah. I mean, Eisenkot's parents are Moroccan immigrants. [35:13] It's even more than that. He grew up in what we call the periphery, right? [35:17] He grew up in Eilat, all the way down south. [35:20] He's not part of the [35:23] secular elite in this country. [35:28] Benjamin Netanyahu was born and raised not far from where I am in Jerusalem, [35:33] in a neighborhood called Rehavia, the upper-elite Ashkenazi neighborhood. [35:37] His father was a professor. Benjamin Netanyahu spent formative years [35:41] in the United States, went to MIT, right? [35:43] It's a very different life experience. [35:45] Yeah, one of his selling points— [35:48] Ben Chertoff: His command of English, right? [35:49] Yaakov Katz: A hundred percent. [35:52] But by the way, what you just touched on is interesting for two reasons. [35:56] Number one is, Eisenkot tried to stay away from it throughout the campaign. [35:59] He didn't try to play it up, which you could say might have been a mistake, [36:02] or might not have. But I think for him, he didn't wanna go into the issue. [36:08] It's not a race issue like you'd call it in America, [36:11] but it is something of a race issue, and he didn't wanna make it that. [36:14] But what it also did, and what makes this interesting, [36:17] is it made it hard for the right to attack Gadi Eisenkot, right? [36:23] You could say he doesn't have security experience — [36:25] he was chief of staff of the IDF. [36:27] You could say he doesn't know the price of war — he lost a son in the Gaza war. [36:32] You could say he doesn't know the challenges of growing up in this country [36:36] as a Sephardi. Well, he does, and he did. [36:41] So he doesn't speak English at a high level. [36:43] I'm okay with that, right? [36:44] That's not what I'm looking for in a leader of the country. [36:48] Ben Chertoff: How much does [36:50] identity politics — what we would call identity politics in the U.S. — [36:54] how much does that play a role in Israeli politics? [36:57] Yaakov Katz: Oh, I mean, I think it plays a huge role, right? [37:00] Just what we were talking about before: [37:02] where I come from, what camp I'm with — that's who I vote for, [37:05] and that's who I support. [37:13] And the problem, at least how I see it... [37:15] The facts are, Israel is not segregated. [37:17] I mean, you have families that are mixed. [37:20] Most families today are Ashkenazi-Sephardi. [37:23] I think it's probably 50-50, if not even a little more toward the Sephardic Jews of [37:29] this country. But it's perfectly integrated. [37:32] Here, the facts are: You just mentioned Gadi Eisenkot — Moroccan descent, [37:37] made his way to become the IDF chief of staff, right? [37:41] You've had them in all roles, whether foreign minister, defense minister, [37:45] finance minister — not yet prime minister. [37:49] But what it is, is something that politicians play at or harp on. [37:55] And it's this nerve that you can kinda touch every once in a while, [38:00] and it sets things off. And people know how to take advantage of that, [38:05] and that makes this very emotional for a lot of people. [38:09] Ben Chertoff: I wanna get back to the influence that America and American [38:14] politics have on the Israeli elections, especially since — as we're taping this — [38:19] recently the American president has endorsed Netanyahu, which is very, [38:25] very out of character for an American president to do. [38:30] And you've described Israel going from flying side by side with American F-35s [38:37] to, quote, "not even in the room." [38:40] So how much of that is President Trump being unpredictable? [38:44] How much of that is Netanyahu? And how much does that whole relationship play [38:50] into people's worries about how this will play out going forward? [38:55] I mean, does it help or hurt Netanyahu? [38:58] Yaakov Katz: I think it mostly helps him, right? [39:02] Donald Trump's endorsement of him, which is pretty unequivocal and unprecedented in [39:06] that way, makes it clear to a lot of people who can make the argument: "Listen, [39:12] Netanyahu is the guy who we need to have, [39:14] because only he can really work with Donald Trump, [39:16] and Donald Trump is so unpredictable, so volatile. [39:19] Can turn on us in a heartbeat. [39:22] We need somebody who can work with him. [39:24] And we'll swallow a bitter pill if that's what it takes, [39:28] but for the next two years..." And I hear lots of people say this: [39:31] "For the next two years, we should have Netanyahu there in office to be able to [39:34] work with Donald Trump." [39:37] That's only one facet, though, I think, of the U.S.-Israel relationship. [39:44] Because in my mind — and I spend a lot of time writing about this and talking to [39:49] international audiences, but also Israeli audiences, [39:53] to educate them on the existential importance of the relationship and the [39:57] alliance with the United States — [40:00] that's long been an easy argument to make for Israelis. [40:03] You look at the airplanes that we fly: all American. [40:05] You look at munitions: American. [40:07] You look at the veto at the United Nations Security Council: it's American. [40:10] But things have shifted in America. [40:12] Not because of Israel — they happened on their own — [40:16] but the situation in Israel makes the whole situation much more frightening for [40:21] us. And I don't think that people here understand enough what's coming, right? [40:29] You're gonna have your midterms. [40:32] The House is going to flip to control of the Democrats. [40:36] In the Senate, there's a few seats up in the air. [40:39] The Senate could also flip. Who knows what's coming in the elections for the [40:42] president in 2028? And we're looking at a new reality. [40:46] Even if a Republican wins in 2028, for '29, for the next two years, [40:54] what's gonna be with Israel's military aid, if that needs to be approved? [40:57] You won't be able to get the votes. [40:58] I mean, you see the calls, and what's changing among members of Congress. [41:03] We should be very, very concerned. [41:06] And then the question is, how do we fix that? [41:07] And I think there's lots of ways to fix that, [41:10] but it's gonna be very hard with this current government. [41:14] They don't wanna fix it. [41:17] Ben Chertoff: How could they? I mean, [41:20] what steps could be taken? And I mean that — like, I don't know. [41:26] Yaakov Katz: So I think there's a lot of steps that can be taken. [41:28] Look, I don't live in an illusion. [41:32] I think even, to some extent, if we tomorrow make a Palestinian state, [41:37] it's not that everyone's gonna line up and love us, right? [41:41] But with that said, we can lower the toxicity. [41:45] We can lower the temperature. I think anyone who cares for Israel understands [41:50] that the current political environment in America... [41:54] You have, what, 430-something races in the House, [41:58] another 35 right now in this cycle in the Senate. [42:02] Israel is an issue in every [42:03] single election. It comes up. [42:05] Ben Chertoff: Disproportionately so. [42:07] Yaakov Katz: Yeah. I mean, that's horrible for Israel. [42:09] We don't wanna be a football that you kick around [42:13] in American politics. We need quiet. [42:16] Keep us out of the room, right? [42:18] Don't talk about us so much. And you see what's happening all over Europe is no [42:22] better. So I think that if we look at the big issues that are out there, [42:27] the way I see it, there's three. [42:30] The most immediate right now is what's referred to as settler violence. [42:34] I don't like that term, Ben, because it makes it seem as if all settlers are [42:38] violent. This is a very small number. [42:40] 99.9% of the people who live in Judea and Samaria and are called settlers [42:46] are law-abiding, serving, contributing people. [42:51] But there is this small, tiny number that is running rampant and carrying out acts [42:57] that, in my mind — and I have written this — [42:59] are Jewish terrorists that should be stopped and feel the full force of the [43:04] law. But this government is not doing it, [43:07] and there's a political reasoning behind it. [43:10] But it's a stain on Israel, and it's causing Israel horrible damage. [43:14] So a new government — [43:16] by the way, even one with Netanyahu, just not with Bezalel Smotrich or Itamar Ben [43:20] Gvir — would be able to bring back tools that were taken away to be able to combat [43:25] this, would be able to deploy the troops, the resources, [43:28] and an effective response to stop it and bring it down. [43:32] That is low-hanging fruit right there. [43:34] That's one. And that could lower the temperature. [43:37] Number two is, we do have to then talk about the bigger issue of the [43:42] Palestinians. That has to do with Gaza, and it has to do with Judea and Samaria, [43:47] the West Bank. Today, the government of Israel does not talk to the Palestinian [43:50] Authority. There's no prospect of any sort of dialogue. [43:54] I don't even wanna go as far as to say peace talks, right? [43:57] Because that would be jumping way too far ahead. [43:59] We gotta get back on track. We also have to do something and move Gaza [44:05] forward, right, which is stuck right now. [44:07] But then there's the third part, which I think Israelis often don't appreciate in [44:13] their way of understanding America. [44:17] If you think of every American lawmaker over the years who would ever talk about [44:23] Israel, they would say two things. [44:25] One is, our bond and commitment to Israel's security is unbreakable, [44:29] unshakable, etcetera. And the second thing is, we are not just allies, [44:34] military allies, but we also have shared values. [44:37] For Americans, values are an important thing. [44:40] And when they look at Israel today, definitely on the Democratic side, [44:46] they feel and they see a country whose values have fundamentally and [44:50] substantively changed. Settler violence is an example of that, [44:55] but judicial reform was another example of that. [44:58] So I think that what Israelis need to do — and I know for a lot of people this will [45:03] sound too progressive and too far left, but I'll say it anyhow — [45:09] Israelis gotta get back to talking in the democratic language that we used to talk [45:15] in, right? And that itself will, I think, contribute to... [45:21] People will look and say, "Okay, this is a different Israel. [45:24] This is the Israel I knew, the Israel I felt an attachment to." [45:29] I think that could have a simmering, calming effect as well. [45:33] Ben Chertoff: What do you think American Jews, especially American liberal Jews, [45:37] don't understand about Israel — or don't understand about Israeli politics and [45:43] sentiment — that they should, and that could help them understand [45:48] why things are the way they are, that there's a rift? [45:53] Yaakov Katz: I've been thinking a lot about this, actually, [45:55] over the last few days, so you catch me in kind of a thoughtful moment about this [45:59] exact question. I think that there is a misunderstanding [46:04] of what government, statehood, [46:10] and a Jewish state actually means. [46:13] And what a Jewish state actually means is that occasionally you are going to have to [46:19] use military force and power. And it's a very different experience, I think, [46:25] for diaspora Jewry when they think of that concept, [46:28] because they don't wield or have or possess that type of power, right, [46:34] living in another country. Not that they're powerless. [46:37] In many cases, they are powerful, but it's a very different type of power. [46:42] Israel's a country that has the problems and the flaws of every other country in [46:48] the world. I'll give you one example. [46:51] I met with a group of lawmakers from one of your 50 states in the United States of [46:56] America recently, and they had visited Jerusalem. [46:59] And they're going on and on about, "I hear there's crime there, [47:04] and there's building violations, and some parts are run down, [47:09] and not enough investment by the municipality. [47:11] And why is that?" And he's getting upset. [47:14] And I said, "I grew up in Chicago, right? [47:21] There are neighborhoods you wouldn't walk into. [47:23] Now, they're Chicagoans just like me, and they're not getting the municipal [47:27] services, and there's a murder rate through the roof, and crime, [47:31] and schools are run down. So why not?" [47:36] Right? We're a country like every other country. [47:39] We have cities like every other city. [47:42] We have the same problems. So I think people need to, A, understand that. [47:47] The second thing people need to understand about Israel is that with all those flaws [47:52] that every country has in the world, we also are in a neighborhood that forces us [47:57] to fight all the time. And that is very hard, I think, to come to terms with. [48:03] And Israel — and I would tell you that we fight in ways that no one else does, [48:08] in the means that we use and deploy to spare civilian casualties and minimize — [48:14] I don't like this term — collateral damage. [48:17] From dropping leaflets, to making robocalls to millions of people, [48:22] to publishing maps: leave this area. [48:24] I mean, what military, when fighting an enemy, says, "Leave where I'm going"? [48:29] You're giving up the element of surprise. [48:32] But this is what Israel does. And I think people don't understand that, [48:37] so they see what's happened, and they say, "Okay, it's genocide in Gaza." [48:42] And by the way, a majority of American Jews think it's genocide as well, [48:45] according to polls. But when you think about it for a moment, you say, [48:50] one second, it's genocide? Then how has the Gaza population increased since [48:54] October 7? So, of course, it's not genocide. [48:58] But it's hard for people to come to terms with the fact that this is a war, [49:04] and this is happening [49:07] in the 2020s, and it's also happening by the Jews. [49:10] Ben Chertoff: Right. Well, it seems like Israel is always exempted from the [49:15] standards and rules that the rest of the world is judged by. [49:19] And I think we do that — diaspora Jews do that as well — in judging Israel. [49:24] Maybe it's because we're [49:27] swimming in that water to a certain extent. [49:29] But... Yeah. You mentioned briefly that there is a possibility [49:36] of a Netanyahu government without Smotrich and Ben Gvir. [49:39] How would that work? What are the mechanics of that, and the like? [49:44] Yaakov Katz: So that would be what we would refer to as a national unity [49:50] government, right? That would be a government that would be something along [49:55] the lines of Netanyahu's Likud, Eisenkot's Yashar, Bennett's Beyachad, [50:01] and Avigdor Liberman's Yisrael Beiteinu. [50:04] You could then keep out the far left, the Arabs, [50:10] the far right and the ultra-Orthodox, and have a government of potentially — [50:15] depending on how the numbers play out — over 60, [50:17] that is ideologically on the same page, that can really deal with the issues that [50:23] we're facing: the ultra-Orthodox issue. [50:25] It can deal with the security threats. [50:27] It can build back the economy, lower, hopefully, the cost of living. [50:33] Fix the education system, which I think is the foundation for a lot of our problems. [50:39] That is what that government would look like. [50:41] But here's the question that gets everybody stuck: Who's prime minister? [50:47] Right? Netanyahu is unlikely to agree to go into a government like that if he's not [50:52] prime minister. The other three would say, "One second. [50:55] Together, we are the majority of what this government is. [50:59] Why would we let you be prime minister? [51:01] And you have to go, right? Because that was what we ran on." [51:05] So I don't know how to square that circle, if we could say that. [51:11] I don't know how that's done. I don't know how it could happen. [51:14] But I go back to something I said before. [51:17] If I am faced with the two options — [51:22] another election, which means we're perpetuating the division and the [51:28] inability to heal and to move on, while still facing all these amazing challenges [51:33] and threats — I say, hell no. You guys go figure this out, [51:38] because we gotta run this country. [51:40] We don't have the luxury to play these little games anymore. [51:45] I hope they can, but I don't know if they will be able to. [51:49] Ben Chertoff: The morning after the vote, American and international news outlets [51:54] will be trying to explain what happened. [51:57] You're a longtime newspaper guy. [51:59] You were the editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post. [52:02] What framing should listeners watch out for? [52:06] What do news outlets get correct? [52:08] What do they get wrong about— [52:10] Yaakov Katz: Mostly wrong. I mean... [52:12] Well, I mean— [52:12] Ben Chertoff: You know, if the past three years is anything... [52:16] Yaakov Katz: I was editor up until right before the war, in 2023. [52:20] So I went through five elections in those three and a half years. [52:24] And first election, all excited, you know? [52:28] First time as an editor putting together coverage of a national election. [52:31] That's exciting. [52:33] Second election was, you know, weird: [52:36] how have we done this? But I had the format already of what the front page is [52:42] gonna look like, [52:44] and what each reporter should be doing. [52:48] Third election, just did copy-paste. [52:49] I was like, "My God, I don't even have to work. [52:51] I just take what we did last time." [52:53] And, of course, same in the fifth election. [52:57] I think that what we'll have is the polls — the exit polls, [53:02] which are gonna come out about 10 p.m. [53:05] on Tuesday, October 27, here in Israel time. [53:08] So I guess it's 3 p.m. on the East Coast, or 2 p.m. [53:11] That's what Israelis are... you know, what the numbers are, [53:17] pretty much what the blocs look like, but it's still not going to be 100% clear. [53:24] That will take another day or so. [53:25] But if you have a landslide, and it's obvious that one side has won, [53:29] that will be the declaration of victory. [53:31] I think the newspapers in the world, though, [53:34] will be reporting on "We're stuck." [53:39] Ben Chertoff: We started off talking about how, [53:42] on the ground, this is being talked about as an incredibly consequential election — [53:49] existential, perhaps. [53:52] What are you optimistic about in this election, [53:57] regardless of the outcome, or at least in the future? [54:01] Yaakov Katz: Yeah. I mean, [54:03] first of all, I'm very happy that we have a democracy and we have the ability to [54:08] vote. I think that we have big decisions to make, [54:14] and I wanna be optimistic that we will make the right decisions. [54:18] There is a lot at stake here: the future of this country, [54:22] whether my children will have to continue to fight or not, [54:27] and what type of country will be here, and what its economic viability will be when [54:32] my grandchildren come. So I [54:36] think we have a lot that's [54:38] real and relevant. But I'm optimistic. [54:41] I think Israelis will figure it out. [54:44] I think, ultimately, if there is a government change, which I think we need, [54:51] I believe that a new government would be able to bring the people back to its [54:57] core focus of how do we stay united as a people. [55:02] And we were never fully united. [55:05] That's true. But there were better eras than the one we're in right now. [55:10] And I think a new government could do that, so I'm optimistic about them. [55:13] The reason I'm optimistic, though, is because, [55:18] closely following and working on policy issues and the government and politics, [55:26] you see how a lot is problematic up there, [55:32] and it broke down on October 7. [55:35] But what didn't break down was the resilience of the Israeli people, [55:38] and our youth, who have been fighting nonstop. [55:42] I mean, I have nephews, three, who until recently were all in the military. [55:47] Now two are left there, as officers. [55:50] One got out. And at one point I joked to them, and I said, "You know, [55:56] you guys could stop paying taxes in Israel, [55:58] because your residency over the last few years has been outside the country: [56:01] in Syria, in Lebanon, in Gaza." [56:05] I mean, the youth here [56:08] are unbelievable. And there's so many stories that we could just spend hours [56:12] talking about. That gives me a lot of optimism and hope. [56:15] Ben Chertoff: Yaakov Katz, thank you so much for joining us today. [56:18] Yaakov Katz: It was my pleasure. [56:25] Ben Chertoff: Remember Yaakov's friend, the one who spent a whole conversation [56:28] complaining about the ultra-Orthodox and still said, [56:30] "My values are with Netanyahu"? [56:32] When the results come in, there will be a lot of people like him behind the numbers. [56:37] And when the morning-after explainers start rolling, [56:40] remember Yaakov's prediction for the real headline: Israel is stuck, [56:44] at least for now, and the country will still have to figure out how to stay one [56:48] people. If this one helped you make sense of the election, [56:51] do me a favor and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. [56:55] It's genuinely the thing that helps people find the show. [56:59] Subscribe on YouTube, Apple or Spotify so you don't miss the next one, [57:03] and follow HonestReporting on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and X for all the work [57:09] behind these conversations. Yaakov's book, written with Amir Bohbot, [57:13] is While Israel Slept: How Hamas Surprised the Most Powerful Military in the Middle [57:18] East. You can read his weekly column in The Jerusalem Post and hear him as host of [57:25] the JPPI podcast. I'm Ben Chertoff. [57:28] This has been The Honest Take, and we'll see you next time.
