Transcript [00:00] Hello everybody. Um, hope everybody had [00:02] wonderful holidays. And we are here with [00:05] Bacha Angra Saragon to discuss her new [00:09] book. I always try to hold it up. I [00:11] don't know how well it it shows. Um, the [00:14] Jews and the left. Um, and uh, I am, as [00:18] you know, we don't start with a long [00:20] introduction. So, we will right away um, [00:23] turn it this over to Bata. And please [00:26] tell us about about this very important [00:28] book. by Tim. [00:30] >> Um, first of all, thank you so much for [00:31] having me. I'm very honored to be here. [00:33] Very happy to see my friend Mort Klein [00:36] here who I haven't seen in a while. Um, [00:38] it's just great to be here with all of [00:40] you. Um, I was honored by the invitation [00:43] and I'm very excited for this [00:44] conversation. I'm not going to speak for [00:45] long cuz I'd much rather hear where you [00:47] guys are coming from and be able to [00:48] answer any questions you have about the [00:50] book. Um, so the book is about why Jews [00:54] became Democrats in the United States [00:56] and then why the left turned on them. So [00:58] it's sort of a two-part story. Um, and [01:01] it's actually, you know, our our history [01:03] in this country starts long before Jews [01:06] became a kind of stalwart democratic [01:09] group. Um, we've really lost sight of [01:12] the early history of this country. And I [01:16] really wanted to reclaim that history, [01:18] which is extremely precious to me and I [01:21] think to the United States of America, [01:22] although it's been totally erased and [01:23] forgotten. Um, there was about 350 years [01:26] of American Jewish history before Jews [01:28] became stalwart Democrats. Um, and so I [01:31] wanted to reclaim that history. I wanted [01:33] to explain why they became Democrats and [01:35] then why the left turned on them. And [01:38] the reason that I wrote this book is [01:39] because I travel a lot for my work. And [01:43] I travel a lot to churches. I talk a lot [01:46] to Christians. I talk a lot to [01:47] Republicans and to conservatives. And [01:49] I'm sure like many of you, the number [01:52] one question I get is, "But why do the [01:55] Jews vote for the Democrats when the [01:57] Democrats hate them and we love them?" [02:01] um that it's something that is very [02:03] mysterious to conservatives uh [02:05] especially Christians and very painful. [02:08] Um and and when I wrote the first half [02:11] of the book about this sort of [02:12] prehistory [02:14] um what American Jewish life was like [02:16] before Jews became Democrats, I started [02:18] to really see the Jews throwing their [02:21] lot in with one party as almost a [02:24] betrayal of that early history. Because [02:27] what I found was that, you know, Jews [02:29] are basically heritage Americans. The [02:32] first Jews arrived here in 1654. [02:35] And from the minute they stepped foot on [02:36] American soil, they were treated as [02:40] cherished founding partners in the [02:42] creation of this great nation. [02:45] We've just lost this history. And I I I [02:47] I don't quite know why because it's such [02:50] a beautiful history. It was so utterly [02:53] unique. Every Jew that came here knew [02:56] the second they got here that things [02:57] were going to be unbelievably different. [03:00] Um, obviously there has been [03:02] anti-semitism in the United States. I [03:04] don't want to deny that and I go into it [03:06] at great length throughout the book. But [03:08] everywhere that anti-semitism cropped [03:10] up, it was soundly defeated often by [03:15] Christians who because of the unique [03:18] nature of American Christianity had [03:20] organized their religion around the idea [03:21] that Jews are precious rather than the [03:24] idea that Jews should be oppressed. And [03:26] again, this is utterly unique in [03:28] American his in Jewish history. And it's [03:31] in my mind an utter betrayal that we [03:34] have lost sight of this as a community. [03:36] So I wanted to rescue that. So the book [03:38] starts in 1654 [03:41] um with some of the amazing stories [03:44] about these early Jewish founding [03:46] fathers and what their experiences were [03:48] like when they encountered [03:51] uh you know colonists in New Amsterdam. [03:54] Um the role that Jews played uh in the [03:57] revolution uh the role that they played [04:00] in the civil war on both sides of the [04:02] civil war. I mean what could be more [04:03] American than that? Um and then we sort [04:06] of get into the 20th century which is [04:08] really where Jews started to become [04:10] Democrats for the first time started [04:13] overwhelmingly voting for Democrats. Um [04:16] and I go through the reasons for that. [04:18] It made a lot of sense. Um there was [04:20] about 2 million Jews who fled [04:22] anti-semitism in Russia, Eastern Europe [04:26] in the first, you know, 20 years of the [04:28] 20th century. And they came here and [04:31] they were so broke. And where they found [04:35] work was in the needle trades in New [04:38] York City where they were horrifically [04:41] exploited usually by other Jews who had [04:44] arrived here, you know, 5 10 15 years [04:47] earlier. I mean, that that's how [04:49] powerful American capitalism was. you [04:52] would arrive here without a penny to [04:53] your name and within 10 years you you [04:56] would work in a sweat shop for 10 years [04:57] and within 10 years you would have [04:58] amassed enough money to open your own [05:01] sweat shop. Um and so they they they had [05:03] this um sense of themselves as workers [05:08] and at the time there was one party that [05:10] believed in rights for workers and [05:12] protections for workers and one party [05:13] that didn't. So, it made a lot of sense [05:15] that with all of these new immigrants [05:17] working 18 hours a day, 6 days, 7 days a [05:21] week in just utterly horrific, destitute [05:24] conditions, um that they would have been [05:26] drawn to the Democratic Party because at [05:28] the time that was a reformist party that [05:30] believed in the dignity of labor. The [05:32] problem was the Jewish proletariat [05:36] turned out to be a very short-lived [05:37] affair for the reasons I've already [05:39] alluded to. they would be able to save [05:41] up enough capital to become themselves [05:43] the capitalists within 10 years, 20 [05:46] years, certainly within one generation. [05:49] It was an unbelievably upwardly mobile [05:51] community. So, you know, at first when [05:54] they got here, they were socialists [05:55] because they were like, you know, [05:56] workers of the world unite. This is the [05:59] only way. But it's hard to stay a [06:01] socialist when you are the sweat shop [06:03] owner. Although there are some very [06:05] charming anecdotes in the book about how [06:07] a lot of very wealthy Jews were also [06:10] socialists at the time, very very [06:12] reminiscent of what's happening today. [06:14] Um, but really what they were looking [06:16] for, you know, as they came out of the [06:18] 1920s into the 1930s, as they started to [06:21] become one of the most educated groups [06:23] in the United States, was a political [06:25] party that had both a respect for labor [06:28] and a respect for capitalism. And they [06:31] really saw this in FDR's New Deal, which [06:34] was so heavily influenced by the Jewish [06:37] lawyers who worked on it, by the Jewish [06:39] sacrifices of the triangle, shirtwist [06:41] factory fire, which I talk about at [06:43] great length in the book, that the [06:44] anti-semites called it the Jew deal [06:47] instead of the New Deal. And they were [06:49] not wrong. I mean it was Francis Perkins [06:52] who was FDR's labor secretary said that [06:55] the the New Deal was born out of the [06:57] sacrifices and the martyrs of the Jewish [06:59] community in the triangle shortwaist [07:01] factory fire and others. I mean Jews [07:02] really built the labor movement in [07:04] America. So that kind of made sense as [07:07] well because they saw in the New Deal [07:09] and in FDR this com something that [07:12] really reflected the community which was [07:13] like people are workingass but they're [07:15] also upwardly mobile and then they [07:17] become capitalists. So we should have a [07:20] respect for both stages for both sides [07:22] of that tension between the you know the [07:25] proletariat and the ownership class. Of [07:27] course FDR went on to eventually uh join [07:30] the second world war defeat the Nazis. [07:33] Um, American Jews saw him as a sort of [07:35] quasi deity. Um, there's also a section [07:39] in the book about how that clashed with [07:41] how survivors of the Second World War [07:44] saw FDR when they got here. Um there's a [07:47] line in the book that I got right from [07:48] my friend Toby Levy is a Holocaust [07:50] survivor who sits next to me in in Shul [07:52] in synagogue and she told me that you [07:54] know when they first got here and they [07:56] would hear American she was when they [07:58] she first moved here she was in hiding [08:00] during the war and moved to New Orleans [08:02] and then eventually moved to New York. [08:03] She said when they would hear how [08:05] American Jews talked about FDR they were [08:07] horrified because to them FDR was the [08:09] guy who let them burn. Um, and she said [08:12] to me, and this is in the book, "We [08:14] quickly learned to keep our mouths shut [08:16] because the American Jews did not want [08:18] to hear it." FDR got 90% of the Jewish [08:21] vote the third time that he ran. So, [08:24] that all made sense. And then this [08:26] brings us, you know, 20 years after the [08:28] liberation of Awitz, you had the the the [08:30] crossing of the Edmund Pettis Bridge. [08:33] Jews felt very very connected to the [08:36] struggle of black Americans for freedom. [08:39] Now today we look back on this [08:41] inacronistically and the left will say [08:43] yes it's because we were also oppressed [08:46] and so we identified with the oppression [08:48] of blacks but at the time it was the the [08:51] Jews saw it in the exact opposite way. [08:53] They felt that we had never been [08:55] oppressed here the way that blacks have [08:57] been which is true. And as a result, [09:00] they felt this emotional and spiritual [09:02] burden to give the gift that the Jews [09:05] had been given in America to make sure [09:07] that every American had access to that. [09:09] It was precisely because we had not been [09:10] oppressed here that Jews felt such a [09:13] huge burden to be involved in the civil [09:16] rights movement. And they were they were [09:17] wildly over represented. Of of the lawy [09:19] of the white lawyers working on civil [09:21] rights law, 70% were Jews. Of the white [09:25] martyrs who were lynched, a third were [09:28] Jews. despite the fact that Jews are [09:30] what 2% of the of the American [09:32] population, wildly overrepresented. I [09:34] mean, 90% of of of the activists were [09:37] black, but of the 10% who were white, it [09:40] was pretty much mostly Jews. There's [09:43] very charming anecdotes again in the [09:44] book of the minute that black activists [09:46] realized that they didn't actually know [09:48] any white people, they only knew Jews [09:50] or, you know, realizing like why do all [09:53] the white people we know have curly [09:54] hair? you know, like they would it would [09:56] it would come to them very slowly but [09:58] then all at once like these are not [10:00] normal white people. Um, so that all [10:03] makes sense, right? Like through up and [10:04] through Dr. King's vision, you know, [10:07] there are very reasonable explanations [10:09] for why Jews were Democrats and voted [10:11] overwhelmingly for Democrats. The [10:14] problem is is that with Dr. King's [10:15] assassination, [10:17] everything started to shift. The Black [10:19] Power movement took over, which did not [10:22] believe in Dr. King's vision that we are [10:24] all part of one nation and that this [10:27] country has in its DNA the the road map [10:30] to fix the problem of the oppression of [10:32] black Americans. The black separatists [10:35] saw themselves as part of a global [10:38] movement to liberate people of color [10:40] from white people. And so they saw [10:42] themselves as part of a movement with, [10:43] for example, the Palestinians against [10:46] the Jews. because um of this shift, you [10:51] had a lot of pressure amongst the [10:53] activists, as there always is, to show [10:55] that you're part of the vanguard. You're [10:57] part of the new cool guys, not the old [11:00] left, which was Dr. King's vision. So, [11:03] you had to prove that you were, you [11:05] know, hip with the new crowd, with the [11:07] separatist crowd, with the Black [11:08] Panthers. And the way that they did that [11:10] was this very anti-white [11:14] uh lexicon entered into the activist [11:17] movement. And because the only white [11:18] people they knew were Jews, this quickly [11:21] became anti-semitic. Anti-semitism [11:23] became a kind of undercurrent in the [11:26] left at this time. And it was bolstered, [11:29] you know, by the the the the the [11:32] activist movement, but also by the [11:34] universities. [11:35] There was a big anti-militarism [11:37] happening at the times the 70s of course [11:40] many of you were there Vietnam war etc. [11:43] And Israel started to be seen you know [11:45] they loved Israel as long as it was you [11:47] know socialists and sandals you know [11:50] hoing the land but as soon as it became [11:53] you know people with guns protecting [11:55] their children [11:57] um the left sort of turned on Israel um [12:00] and and started basically this collision [12:03] course between the left and the Jews. Um [12:05] you then had added to this this academic [12:08] movement towards post structuralism what [12:12] we call today wokeness the view that you [12:14] know there's no real difference between [12:16] right or wrong or fact versus fiction. [12:19] There's only who has more power and who [12:20] has less power and whoever has less is [12:23] inherently virtuous and has no moral [12:26] responsibilities. Which is why the left [12:29] sided with kamas on October 7th because [12:31] kamas has less power than Israel. it has [12:34] no moral responsibilities not to mass [12:37] rape and mass murder. That's kind of the [12:39] the moral underpinning of the left [12:41] today. Um so you know the book traces [12:44] why Jews became Democrats and then why [12:46] the left turned on them and explains all [12:48] this in great detail. Um when I wrote [12:51] finished the book it was kind of on a [12:53] tragic note. I mean so many Jews were [12:55] having a hard time even coming to terms [12:57] with how much the left had turned on [12:58] them. I do think now we are in a moment [13:01] where there is a little bit more [13:03] movement in a place like Michigan for [13:05] example. In New York you are actually [13:08] seeing for the first time in polling [13:10] which is very inaccurate but polling [13:13] that is in this case weighted in favor [13:15] of Republicans. So maybe more accurate [13:17] but um you are seeing sizable numbers of [13:20] Jews just saying I just can't anymore. I [13:22] cannot keep voting for a party that [13:23] hates me. Um, so we're in a moment of [13:26] flux. And it's interesting, another [13:28] reason we're in a moment of flux is [13:29] because, um, the the Orthodox community [13:32] is 75% Republican. So it's the exact [13:36] inverse of the liberal community or the [13:38] secular community. Um, and they're just [13:40] obviously kind of, you know, leaving [13:43] everybody else in the dust when it comes [13:44] to population. you know, in 40 years, [13:47] the Jewish community will probably be [13:49] very, very Republican um just because of [13:52] the demographic shifts that we're [13:54] seeing. So, so we're in a state of flux. [13:56] Um I wanted to capture this moment and [13:58] what led up to it. And uh yeah, I'll [14:01] open it up now and and take your [14:03] questions. [14:05] Thank you so much, Baja, for that great [14:06] introduction. That that was terrific. [14:09] Um, you know, I I mentioned this to you [14:11] before, but I I wanted to just mention [14:14] how blown away I was by um what you [14:17] wrote about the triangle shirt waist [14:19] fire. I've actually been involved I was [14:21] involved in that issue quite a bit and [14:23] uh surf from Maltiz I don't know if you [14:25] know him was a Republican long-standing [14:28] Republican state senator from New York [14:29] from Queens [14:31] >> and u his grandmother and two of his [14:35] aunts uh were killed in the triangle [14:37] shirt waist fire you know there were 102 [14:40] Jews and 44 um Italians who who were [14:43] killed you mostly young girls [14:45] >> and um he used to he was very involved [14:48] in in the memorial memorializing it and [14:50] there was a memorial every every year in [14:52] Queens and I played violin for it and [14:55] you know very friendly with him. He's [14:56] actually still alive and um and he's [14:59] he's been very involved in keeping that [15:01] memory of all and you know alive and [15:03] safety and he's a Republican you [15:04] conservative Republican. He was actually [15:06] head of the Conservative party for a [15:07] while and um I just wonder if you know [15:11] if you could speak for a minute about [15:12] writing that section and I actually [15:14] despite being involved with that I [15:16] learned things from your book that I [15:17] didn't know before about about the [15:19] events and it was you know really [15:21] heartbreaking. [15:22] >> Thank you so much. Oh gosh it was that [15:24] was maybe one of the hardest parts of [15:26] the book to write. Um there were parts [15:28] that filled me with joy. the first [15:30] chapter about the early history. Um, a [15:33] lot of the stuff about, you know, Jews [15:35] in the south that I didn't know, uh, [15:37] Jewish rabbis in the south and their [15:39] approach to to race relations filled me [15:41] with joy. This section was I would cry [15:43] every night when I would finish working [15:44] on it. It was [15:46] >> so horrible. So, basically, um, I think [15:48] it was 1916, is that right? [15:51] >> 1911, right? Um, so it was just at the [15:53] beginning of Jews sort of coming into a [15:56] kind of class consciousness. Um the the [16:00] first Jews to arrive here from Russia [16:03] and mass fleeing these poggrams. They [16:05] were very um when they got here a lot of [16:08] them were very depressed. There was [16:09] actually an epidemic of suicide. It took [16:11] them a while to to sort of start to come [16:13] together and think actually we can fight [16:15] for ourselves. Um the the actual [16:18] incident that that um I I think I argue [16:21] in the book was a catalyst to this kind [16:23] of class consciousness came um actually [16:26] during a funeral. So there was only one [16:29] very short period in American history [16:31] that we had a chief rabbi. It's always [16:33] been seen as sort of anti-American to [16:35] have a kind of establishment religious [16:37] figure like that because of course we're [16:39] very zealous of our freedoms here in [16:41] America. But for a while they tried to [16:44] have one and they brought over this [16:45] rabbi who had been a kind of rock star [16:47] in Europe. Um you know he would give [16:49] lectures and you know the women would be [16:51] like screaming and fainting in the [16:53] aisles and the young people would trail [16:55] after him. They thought, "Oh, he'd be [16:56] perfect." And they brought him over here [16:58] and it was kind of tragic. Um, it it [17:01] just didn't take on. Uh, he had this big [17:04] crusade because [17:06] people would pass off tra chicken as [17:08] kosher. It was like a big racket. And so [17:11] he decided, I'm going to take this on as [17:14] my issue. And it's like nobody wanted [17:16] him to take it on. Like nobody cared. [17:19] And he died penniless and without any [17:22] honor. And and so the Jews felt very [17:24] guilty. So about 50,000 people turned up [17:27] for his funeral and they started [17:28] marching down the streets in this [17:30] enormous guilt procession um down the [17:34] streets of the Lower East Side. And as [17:35] they passed um a factory, a bookmaking [17:38] factory, the Irish guys who worked in [17:40] the book making factory started jeering [17:43] at them and then started throwing [17:45] buckets of water at them and then [17:47] started throwing, you know, blocks of [17:48] wood out. Um and the Jews got they were [17:52] furious. Um they they they they stormed [17:56] the factory. They broke every single [17:58] window. The factory was a block a city [18:00] block wide. They broke every single [18:01] window on the first two floors. And then [18:04] they stormed the factory and started [18:06] beating up these Irish guys, including [18:07] like ladies and shaitels, you know, and [18:09] like men in their like hats and like [18:11] their their pis flying. And when the [18:14] cops showed up, they blamed the Jews, [18:17] which made the Jews even angrier. Like [18:18] how dare you? We are the victims here. [18:21] And you could just hear like this rumble [18:23] on the street of like thousands of Jews [18:25] screaming, "What is this, Russia?" Like, [18:28] and that was the moment they realized, [18:30] "This is not Russia." Like, you cannot [18:32] treat an American this way. And they [18:34] ended up going to court and the chief of [18:37] police had to issue like a formal [18:38] apology to the Jews for how this had all [18:41] gone down. And it was this amazing [18:44] moment of of consciousness of of kind of [18:46] class consciousness of we deserve [18:49] respect. And after that funeral, all of [18:52] these unions started uh picking up. The [18:55] cloak makers union, the shirt waist [18:57] union, the Jews started to organize and [19:00] say, "Well, if we can demand respect in [19:02] the streets, we can demand respect at [19:04] work." And you know, this this hadn't [19:06] been a thing in America, unions, like [19:08] what do you mean a union? Well, we get [19:09] together and we say to the boss, we're [19:11] not working unless you know this this is [19:14] a safer place to work. So the shirt [19:17] waist the shirt waist makers were women [19:20] mostly and they went on strike and many [19:23] of them as a result were fired from this [19:25] place called the shirt waist triangle [19:27] factory which was on the lower east [19:29] side. They hired a whole bunch of newer [19:32] immigrants who had not yet had this [19:34] experience of being able to stand up for [19:36] themselves. Mostly Jews, a few Italian [19:38] and they were teenagers. I mean they [19:40] were ages 13 to 18. I very very young. [19:45] And the conditions in this factory were [19:47] unbelievably unbelievably unsafe. Uh [19:50] they would lock the doors so the girls [19:52] wouldn't steal material. They would put [19:54] like a shirt they they wore these huge [19:56] pompador hairstyles and so they were [19:58] worried that they would hide a shirt [19:59] waist inside the pompador hair. So they [20:02] wanted to check them on the way out. So [20:04] the doors would be locked during the [20:05] day. They didn't have enough fire exits. [20:08] And one horrific day, somebody, you [20:11] know, smoked a cigarette and then before [20:13] it was out, tossed it. And there was oil [20:17] everywhere and shirts and and material [20:19] and wood. And the top floor just [20:23] completely engulfed in flames in [20:25] minutes. Um, and they ran for the exits. [20:30] The exits were locked. Um, [20:34] they ran to the windows. They were on [20:35] the 10th floor. [20:37] And the whole building started to get [20:39] engulfed in flames, the top three [20:41] floors. And the the they they actually [20:44] managed to call the the fire department [20:48] pretty quickly. [20:50] And the firemen arrived and they [20:52] unfurled these nets and the girls [20:55] started jumping. Um from a 10th floor, [20:58] you you weigh if you weigh 100 pounds, [21:01] you weigh two tons by the time you've [21:03] made it to the ground. They just went [21:05] right through those nets. girl after [21:07] girl after girl and it was just [21:10] horrific. And we have the from the [21:12] newspapers we have the eyewitness [21:15] accounts of people standing outside and [21:18] watching this happen. It was like 9/11. [21:21] They would just see these girls jumping [21:23] to their deaths, but they were only 10 [21:25] 10 floors up so they could see their [21:27] faces. [21:28] And you just the the family started to [21:31] arrive and the family stood there and [21:34] had to watch their daughters, their [21:36] teenage daughters jumping to their death [21:38] to to escape the inferno. And Francis [21:42] Perkins, who as I said, went on to [21:44] become FDR's labor secretary, happened [21:46] to be having coffee with her friend in [21:49] Washington Square Park, which was right [21:51] on the corner where the the factory was. [21:53] And they heard the the sirens. And so [21:56] they ran over and she stood there and [21:58] watched these girls jumping. And 60 [22:01] years later, she was still talking about [22:03] the sound that their bodies made and the [22:06] kind of collective maya culpa that the [22:09] entire Lower East Side. So the whole [22:11] city went into mourning after this. It [22:13] was just horrific. Um the girls had to [22:15] be identified by teeth, by a ring, by a [22:18] shoe because they were completely burnt [22:20] up their bodies. 146 young women were [22:24] killed. 102 of them were Jewish. Uh it [22:27] just like horrific. And you know, there [22:29] were also acts of bravery. The the the [22:31] man who who ran the elevator um ran and [22:36] some young Jewish boys from the the law [22:38] school, NYU law school was right next [22:39] door, went in and operated that elevator [22:42] until the cables frayed, saved, I don't [22:44] know, 50 girls. Um on the on the roof of [22:48] NYU, they took a ladder and brought it [22:51] over onto the roof. And so some girls [22:53] were able to cross the ladder. Um, and [22:55] they stood they went over to the side [22:57] the girls were on to make sure that the [22:58] men didn't get on first. I mean, there [23:00] was a lot of heroism as well, but um, [23:03] just very very horrific horrific thing [23:08] that happened and and changed the course [23:09] of American history. After that really [23:12] the the the strikes really took off and [23:14] it was the first time that the press [23:16] started treating the strikers like the [23:18] main story rather than, you know, the [23:20] ownership class. Um and it was just you [23:22] know the chapter in the book is called [23:24] the Jewish birth of labor and we really [23:25] did give birth to this movement. Today [23:28] we think a lot of you know we think of [23:29] unions as being sort of an arm of the [23:31] Democratic party although that is [23:32] changing but that was true for a long [23:34] time but at the time the thing that they [23:36] were fighting for is something that I [23:38] think even the most conservative um even [23:40] the most you know free market person [23:42] would want something like a 5day work [23:45] week you know an 8 to 10 hour workday [23:49] you know children not being exploited [23:51] the 5day work week was something that [23:53] these unions came up with together with [23:56] the rabbis so that the Jews would be [23:58] able to take off shabas. Um although [24:02] >> that became less and less important to [24:04] them um as they you know one of the [24:06] first things Jews do when they got to [24:07] America was you know kind of sloth off [24:09] the religion of their forefathers. [24:12] >> Well thank you for that. Thank you so [24:13] much really and that was it was you know [24:16] and I I learned things from what you [24:18] wrote that I didn't know before [24:20] including about the ladders you know to [24:22] to rescue and so on. Um it's interesting [24:25] though the um the legislation to appoint [24:28] a commission um to investigate this was [24:32] uniformly supported by Republicans and [24:35] Democrats in the state legislature real [24:37] bipartisan and also a couple of years [24:40] later in 1916 there was an effort um by [24:43] some business people to uh reverse some [24:45] of that legislation and it was a [24:48] Republican governor u Charles Whittmann [24:50] who vetoed that and so I'm wondering did [24:53] have any impact? And this is a question [24:55] I have about a number of things [24:56] throughout the book. Did that have any [24:58] impact that it was a Republican governor [25:00] who stood up for this that it was a [25:02] bipartisan effort to um you know to [25:05] investigate what happened? Did that have [25:07] an impact in in terms of um Jews [25:10] becoming more liberal or um [25:13] uh you or going for the Democratic Party [25:15] or not? [25:17] >> Um I don't know the answer to that. [25:18] don't I I can't it's not coming to mind [25:20] as a yes but that doesn't mean that it's [25:22] a no. I just uh I don't know. [25:24] >> Uhhuh. [25:25] >> It's a good question. Um yeah, I also [25:27] have sort of a related question about [25:29] you know civil rights and you talk about [25:31] how civil rights was sort of one of the [25:34] three um most important issues um which [25:38] you know made Jews you know more liberal [25:40] and um kind of you know there's this [25:43] legislative record which is um really [25:46] very favorable to the Republicans and [25:48] also you know starting you know the love [25:50] for the Jews for um for for President [25:53] Lincoln um the reconstru construction [25:57] error um legislation. [26:00] Um the 14th and 15th amendment were both [26:03] passed by 100% Republicans and you know [26:05] the Democrats didn't went vote for it. [26:08] Um let's see what what else some of the [26:11] uh actually wrote some of this down [26:13] wrote some of this down. Oh, the Civil [26:15] Rights Act of 1866. 100% of Republicans [26:19] voted for it. All all Democrats against. [26:22] Um and then you know the next [26:25] legislation there really wasn't any [26:26] civil rights legislation until the 50s. [26:29] Um and then a after well board of the uh [26:32] board of education uh decision uh [26:36] desegregation decision 99 Democrats um [26:40] and only two Republicans signed signed [26:42] what's called the s Southern man [26:43] manifesto um which said that they [26:46] opposed the Brown and versus Board of [26:48] Education uh desegregation uh decision. [26:50] and they were going to do everything in [26:52] their power to get it reversed and you [26:53] know not to abide by it. [26:55] >> Right. Right. The dixrats. Yeah. [26:58] Um um Jews Jews loved uh President [27:01] Lincoln. They loved him. Um one of the [27:04] only possibly the only uh act legal [27:09] state sponsored act of oppression of the [27:12] Jews happened during the civil war. um [27:15] where they were uh forced out, you know, [27:18] you know, a law was written that they [27:19] were should be forced to leave a certain [27:21] area in Appalachia. [27:22] >> Order 11. Order number 11. Right. Right. [27:24] >> Order number 11. And uh they immediately [27:26] went to uh Lincoln who was horrified by [27:29] it and immediately reversed it. By the [27:31] time they got there, it had been [27:32] reversed actually. So they kind of, you [27:34] know, um but they had a lovely meeting [27:36] with him and um they absolutely loved [27:38] him and uh he had a very close [27:41] relationship with the Jews. And in fact, [27:42] I I have this reprinted in the book, but [27:44] the first act of DEI in the United [27:47] States was I think I mean, as far as I [27:49] can tell, when um President Lincoln [27:52] wrote to one of his generals and said um [27:54] they were thinking about or one of the [27:55] captains, he was trying to um anoint [27:57] general or or give somebody a promotion [27:59] to rank of general and he wrote to him, [28:01] you know, we have not yet appointed a [28:02] Hebrew. Why don't we look for one of [28:04] those, you know, and he was like very [28:06] important to do this, you know, [28:08] affirmative action of the Jews. So that [28:10] I think was before Yeah. And I think [28:12] then Jews were, you know, equal, [28:13] depending on where they lived, local [28:14] politics, were equally likely to vote [28:16] for Republicans as for Democrats. Um, [28:18] the Dixierats, it's interesting like how [28:20] did why did that not have more of a an [28:23] impact? I think it's because by that [28:24] time already most Jews lived in the [28:26] North like like overwhelmingly [28:29] and so their view of Republicans versus [28:31] Democrats was much more influenced by [28:33] those politics. Um, but it's it's a very [28:36] good question. [28:37] >> Right. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I love the [28:38] part in the book where you discussed um [28:41] you know uh Lincoln's discussion um [28:44] after after reversing order number 11. [28:46] That was great. That was ter that was [28:48] another there's so many wonderful [28:50] vignettes in in the book. Um, but you [28:53] know, I mean, it's also I mean, I want [28:54] to sort of continue on that line with [28:56] the with the Civil Rights Act because it [28:58] wasn't just back in reconstruction, you [29:00] know, and and 1950s. Well, the Civil [29:03] Rights Act of 1957, same thing. [29:05] Eisenhower, Republican president um [29:08] calling out the National Guard when a [29:10] Democratic uh governor Forbus tried to [29:14] keep uh the black students out of Little [29:17] Rock, Arkansas, out of the public [29:19] school. um the Civil Rights Act of 1964. [29:23] Again, it was um you know, [29:25] overwhelmingly Republicans, 80% [29:27] Republicans, 80 82% in the Senate, um [29:30] versus 61% Democrats voting for that. [29:32] The Voting Rights Act of 1965, [29:35] same thing, 94% Republicans versus 69% [29:39] Democrats. Um, and then the Fair Housing [29:42] Act of 1968, which was important for [29:44] Jews also because it had religion in it. [29:47] And it prevented it's it finally [29:49] outlawed the um what what is it the um [29:54] restrictive covenants and I remember my [29:56] dad used to see when he would do a house [29:58] closing he would see the restrictive [29:59] covenants in a lot of the houses which [30:01] you said Jews and blacks can't buy this [30:03] house. Um and again that was you know [30:06] overwhelmingly Republicans you know 90% [30:08] and 87% versus 71% for the Democrats. Um [30:13] and you know so this is all this [30:15] legislation um and also the occupational [30:17] safety and health act in 1970 which was [30:20] the first federal legislation on safety. [30:23] Um you know that was more Republicans it [30:26] was close that was 85% to 82%. But all [30:29] this legislation was over again was [30:31] overwhelmingly [30:32] supported by the Republicans and so I [30:35] mean so since civil rights was so [30:38] important to to Jews again you know the [30:41] sort of the same question why didn't [30:43] that have an impact as to who was [30:45] supporting you know the legislation [30:48] uh for the items that Jews believed in [30:51] um and you know you know you beyond the [30:53] reconstruction in the more recent years. [30:56] >> It's a great question. Um I I can come [30:58] up with a few answers although I don't I [31:00] can't say definitively. Um I think at [31:03] that point already Jews had become [31:05] liberals. So you know these issues were [31:08] very important to them but also they had [31:10] a kind of liberal orientation at this [31:12] point. They were urbane. They were [31:15] educated. They lived in cities. They [31:17] read the New York Times. And so a lot of [31:19] this has to do with a kind of cultural [31:21] orientation that made them feel more at [31:23] home in the Democratic party than the [31:24] Republican party. And as we know, we're [31:26] all very good at, you know, noticing the [31:29] stuff that backs up, you know, our [31:31] confirmation bias rather than the stuff [31:33] that kind of gets in the way of it and [31:34] suggests that we might be wrong about [31:36] that. Um, for much of American history, [31:38] where anti-semitism did exist, it did [31:41] come from the right. Now, that started [31:43] to change in the late 60s and the early [31:45] 70s. Today, it's almost the exact [31:47] opposite with the singular exception of [31:49] people like Tucker Carlson and, you [31:51] know, maybe even his friend JD Vance. Um [31:53] but you know mostly today most [31:55] anti-semitism does come from the left [31:57] where it is utterly mainstream. Um and [32:00] on the right it's very marginal and [32:02] that's a complete reversal of what it [32:04] was for much of American history in the [32:07] perception of American Jews. You know we [32:09] could say oh well that perception was [32:11] wrong you know 50 years ago was wrong 30 [32:13] years ago it was wrong 100 years ago but [32:15] that is how it was perceived. um you [32:18] know for example FDR's anti-semitic [32:20] critics would come from the right father [32:21] Klin all of this stuff um you know the [32:24] people who lynched Leo Frank and and all [32:26] of this so there's a lot of examples of [32:28] that and that was kind of how Jews came [32:30] up feeling like well the Democrats are [32:32] on our side and you know the Republicans [32:34] feel some type of way about us. Um there [32:36] were efforts on the right to codify the [32:39] idea that America is a Christian nation [32:41] which to Jews obviously felt like they [32:43] were being excluded. Um, but it's a it's [32:46] a great point and I had not thought of [32:47] that, Liz. Thank you. [32:48] >> Thanks. the Klux Play also that was that [32:51] was also southern Democrats that was all [32:53] dem started by Democrats and and that [32:55] was you know no but I you know I'm you [32:57] know I think it's right I think what [32:59] you're saying about perception is you [33:00] know it has a lot to it but you know [33:02] people didn't you know may not have [33:04] actually looked at the history the [33:06] history um you know and you know [33:09] obviously Father Coughlin was on the u [33:12] you know was was terrible on on on the [33:15] right but you had a lot of push back on [33:17] the right uh against him including [33:20] Wendel Wilkkey and so on and and um you [33:23] know which sort of brings me to another [33:25] very tough question you know as to you [33:27] know why with the the you know the the [33:29] love for FDR and you know let me just [33:31] mentioned my background and my own [33:33] concern about this I mean my dad um was [33:36] a refugee from Germany I had several [33:38] relatives on the St. Lewis um which FDR [33:42] turned back. Um I had my [33:43] great-grandmother uh great great aunt [33:46] great uncle the great uncle had just [33:47] gotten out of Dau as you as you know [33:50] people may know um the Nazis did let [33:53] some people out of you know who he they [33:54] arrested on Crystal Knock. um they took [33:58] a lot of the Jews to DAO and Saxonhousen [34:00] and and uh you know one of the other um [34:03] one of the other camps and they let some [34:04] of them out on condition that they you [34:07] know they turn in all their assets and [34:09] they leave the country quickly and so [34:10] quite a few if you look at the lists um [34:13] in the Holocaust Museum about where [34:16] people were before they got on to the [34:19] St. Louis you know they have a list of [34:21] all the passengers from the St. Lewis [34:22] and what happened to them. You see that [34:24] a lot of them, you know, were in [34:26] concentration camps. So these were [34:27] people who had already suffered, you [34:29] know, the horrors of the Nazi regime and [34:31] they knew what they were, you know, [34:33] probably going back, but the joint made [34:34] sure that they um, as you, as you know [34:37] in the book, the joint distribution [34:38] committee made sure that they got to [34:40] other countries. Several of them were, [34:42] you know, several of those all those, [34:43] you know, three of those countries were [34:44] overrun again by the Nazis. And so so [34:47] 200 over 250 people were killed by the [34:49] Nazis ultimately. But um you know during [34:53] that period um you had you didn't have [34:58] you I mean you you St. Louis you had uh [35:03] Roosevelt deliberately doing things to [35:06] stop the passengers from coming into the [35:08] country. He had he had the coast guard [35:11] um circling around the ship um to [35:13] prevent passengers from jumping o [35:16] jumping over and also he had a very nice [35:17] German captain who was thinking of [35:19] running the ship ground and to prevent [35:20] that from happening um and there were so [35:23] many other things that that you know [35:25] sort of positive things the Evian [35:27] conference um that FDR um you know you [35:31] know and he didn't come in and saying oh [35:32] well we're going to let in some more [35:33] Jews and so so all of you should instead [35:36] he he used it as an excuse [35:38] to uh to not let in more Jews and then [35:42] and you know and Hitler used it as an [35:44] excuse to start killing Jews. Um there [35:46] were so many problems with him and you [35:48] know this so the question is why there [35:50] wasn't much more of an impact on the [35:52] Jewish community about this. I mean my [35:54] father was a lifelong Republican because [35:55] he knew what was happening you know and [35:57] what had happened with FDR. Um but you [36:01] know and you wrote about this this [36:02] conflict between people who had [36:04] experienced what was happening in [36:05] Germany. But you know I mean he was here [36:07] from 38 and then he joined the American [36:09] army and so and it's many of them were [36:10] here even before the war and you know [36:13] letting people know what what was going [36:15] on. Um and related to this I also wanted [36:19] to speak about um I think there was a [36:21] line in the book that that I actually [36:24] very much disagreed with that there [36:25] wasn't a better alternative [36:28] which this is tough question time um you [36:31] know but if you look at the people who [36:32] ran against um FDR all them were very [36:36] very phosetic and would have been were [36:38] were screaming about what was going on [36:41] Herbert Hoover he was involved in the [36:43] World War I humanitarian relief and when [36:45] the polls didn't allow um Jews to to get [36:48] um humanitarian relief after World War [36:50] I. He found ways and used with the joint [36:52] and so on to circumvent them. Um he was [36:55] considered a modern Moses. Um he [36:57] supported the Belfford declaration. Um [37:00] he you know his he had appointed [37:02] prominent Jewish figures. Um he [37:04] condemned the Habbron program pgrams [37:06] that he condemned the German pro uh [37:09] persecution and and nothing was nothing [37:12] was said by by Roosevelt about this. a [37:15] very outspoken critic of what was going [37:17] on. He was involved in the emer 1943 [37:20] emergency conference. Um Alfa Landon, [37:23] great friend of of the Jews, um governor [37:25] is of Kansas and he only got 15% of the [37:28] Jewish vote. Um he was an outspoken [37:31] critic from 1933 on of the of the of the [37:34] Nazis. Um constantly condemning them. Um [37:38] uh he he was uh you know and he had some [37:40] Jews some high-profile Jews that [37:42] endorsed him. But this despite that he [37:45] had very very low Jewish turnout. Um he [37:48] also publicly endorsed the Wagner Rogers [37:51] bill which you had mentioned in there [37:52] which was the bill to admit 20,000 [37:54] German Jewish children and he was [37:56] campaigning for that and that's [37:57] something that the Roosevelt [37:59] administration um opposed um very close [38:02] to a lot of Zionists already um you know [38:06] people have written written about Alf [38:08] Landon and then there was Wendell [38:09] Wilkkey vocal champion of of Jewish [38:12] refugees civil rights and the creation [38:13] of a Jewish state in Palestine um [38:16] condemned you know condemn [38:18] condemning anti-semitism as a possible [38:21] criminal movement. Um you know [38:24] ferociously attacked Lindberg and [38:26] Lindberg's horrible addresses um [38:28] defended you know defended Jews defended [38:31] you tried to get rescues of Jews from [38:33] the Nazis um testified in favor of the [38:36] 1943 Gillette Rogers resolution which [38:39] pushed the US government to rescue [38:41] European Jews which ended up going [38:43] nowhere. um he uh made sure that uh the [38:47] 1944 [38:49] um Republican platform had a very strong [38:52] uh statement about rescuing Jews and and [38:55] uh allowing Jews to go into Palestine. [38:58] um uh and you know the and the 1944 [39:01] candidate also. I mean this this is it's [39:06] um you know there were so many and and I [39:08] mean why didn't this have an impact on [39:11] you know and why didn't Jews actually [39:13] look at what you know what the [39:15] candidates were for and you know why [39:17] didn't this have an impact on on the [39:19] Jewish population? I mean it's you know [39:21] one of maybe one of the great mysteries [39:23] but I don't know if you have any [39:24] thoughts on that. Um, I didn't say there [39:26] was nobody better ever. Ever. I didn't. [39:29] Yeah, I didn't say that. Um, uh, FDR was [39:32] very phloetic. He failed to save Jews [39:35] during the Holocaust, but he had a very [39:37] close relationship with people like [39:39] Henry Morgan thou and all of his lawyer. [39:41] I mean, many of his lawyers were Jews. [39:44] He put a second Jew on the Supreme [39:46] Court. [39:47] >> I mean, somebody who's not a Phoemite [39:49] doesn't do that. I mean that's testimony [39:51] to the fact that Jews were seen as [39:52] Americans and they voted as Americans [39:55] and I think that that is that is the key [39:57] is like you know Abdul Aliad is going to [40:00] get 95% of the Muslim vote. if a Jew [40:04] ran, especially as a Republican, [40:07] they would never get that because we [40:08] vote as Americans and we see ourselves [40:10] as Americans. And that's a beautiful, [40:12] wonderful thing despite the fact that [40:13] obviously all of us on this call wish [40:15] Jews would feel a little bit maybe more [40:17] connected to the Jewish struggle [40:19] worldwide. Um, it is testimony to the [40:22] argument I make in the book, which is [40:23] that Jews were never seen or treated or [40:25] felt like guests here. We were never [40:27] oppressed here. We were never treated as [40:29] other. And I think that all of that, you [40:32] know, yes, maybe there were candidates [40:33] that were better on Jewish issues, um, [40:35] but they wanted this one because of, you [40:38] know, I was, you know, asking my great [40:39] aunt, well, why did you guys love him so [40:40] much? She said, well, he he he he [40:42] rescued us from the Great Depression, [40:44] you know, why wouldn't we vote on that? [40:46] And and he I I do disagree. I do think [40:48] he was phositic. He was and when he [40:51] found out just how anti-semitic the [40:53] State Department was, he fired Breenri [40:55] Long. He created the war refugee board, [40:58] put it under the opices of treasury [41:00] which was Morgan tha a Jew put him in [41:03] charge of this. It was too little too [41:05] late. They saved I think 250,000 Jews. [41:08] But his view was and I think he truly [41:10] believed this that the way to save the [41:12] Jews was to prosecute the war in the [41:14] most effective way. And in order to do [41:16] that he had to overcome a radically uh [41:20] anti-immigration coalition and a [41:22] radically anti-war isolationist [41:24] coalition. and he had to hold that [41:26] coalition together and not be seen as [41:29] fighting for the Jews or he would have [41:31] lost his coalition and lost his power [41:32] and lost his ability to enter the war at [41:34] all. So again, I I don't want to defend [41:37] him because I think he did do too [41:38] little. He did too little. He it's it's [41:40] a shondaanda, but at the same time, um [41:44] you know, I don't know that somebody [41:45] else could have [41:47] >> he was holding together a coalition that [41:50] on all sides wanted him to do even less [41:53] and he did. win the war. We did win the [41:56] war. And and I think he felt that there [41:58] was only one way to do it. And his wife [42:00] Elellanor was so on the side of the [42:02] Jews. She would write columns about it [42:04] in her daily journal that were [42:05] syndicated and tens of millions of [42:07] people read it. Um so [42:09] >> she should have been president. You [42:11] should have You're not going to get an [42:12] argument from me there. [42:16] >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean but I I think that [42:18] you know that may be true up till you [42:20] know to Pearl Harbor but you know Pearl [42:23] Harbor the country was you know united [42:26] behind going you know to you know to [42:29] ending this and and to and through the [42:31] United States involvement in World War [42:34] II and in fact the American first [42:36] committee which was you know the the [42:38] real isolationists disbanded then you [42:40] know after uh a after Pearl Harbor. So I [42:44] I and I I just don't think I mean there [42:47] was so much you know sort of deliberate [42:50] you know the 20 not allowing in the [42:51] 20,000 children not allowing you know [42:54] circling the [42:56] circling the St. Louis to make sure that [42:59] people didn't jump off. Um, you know, [43:01] not bombing the railroads. I mean, [43:03] things that were easy fixes that [43:07] >> I talk about a lot of that in the book. [43:09] Um, at the time the not bombing the [43:12] railroads was not seen as a betrayal [43:15] like that that it was brought up but it [43:18] was dismissed and he was awarded awards [43:21] by Jews. This is kind of to your [43:22] question which is why did the Jews not [43:23] hold this against him? But at the time [43:26] this was not seen the way we see it now [43:28] as like how could you not have done this [43:30] it's so easy it's so obvious at the time [43:32] it was sort of floated and then said [43:34] okay you know this won't actually help [43:35] very much all right next um on the St. [43:38] Louis, it's my understanding that I mean [43:40] they obviously I think they should have [43:42] let them in, but it's my understanding [43:44] that um over half survived and the vast [43:47] majority of them ended up moving to the [43:48] United States. Um so we we feel a [43:52] certain way now in hindsight um that [43:54] people at the time didn't necessarily [43:56] feel. But again, you know, and also I [43:58] want to get other people in because I [43:59] have to leave too, but but I they're [44:02] great questions obviously, [44:03] >> right? Amort wants to ask a question. [44:05] Amort, [44:07] >> hi. Hi. [44:09] >> Hi. I'm speaking from your former [44:11] neighborhood, Marine, Pennsylvania. [44:15] >> Nice. Nice. [44:15] >> I don't know if you know you and and Liz [44:17] are both you of Chicago graduates. [44:20] >> Oh, I didn't know that. [44:23] >> Uh [44:24] >> and and Wendel Wilky's grandson, by the [44:26] way, who was in my law school class. [44:29] >> Wow. [44:34] I I think this is appropriate. May if [44:37] you can help me understand a situation [44:38] that I experienced, Zway experienced [44:41] really six years ago when Black Lives [44:43] Matter was a major issue. [44:46] 600 Jewish leaders and others signed a [44:49] full page ad in the New York Times [44:50] supporting Black Lives Matter. [44:53] Rick Jacobs, the head of the reform [44:55] movement and William Blumenthal, the [44:56] head of conservative movement at [44:58] meetings of all the Jewish leaders that [44:59] I attended would scream that this is the [45:02] civil rights movement of our time. When [45:05] I wrote an op-ed and press releases [45:08] exposing the charter of Black Lives [45:09] Matter, [45:11] which was viciously anti-Israel, [45:13] anti-semitic in every way possible, I [45:15] simply quoted from their charter and [45:18] tweeted things out against them. Jacobs [45:21] and Blumenthal publicly called me and [45:24] Zoa a racist said we should be thrown [45:26] out of the conference of presidents [45:29] and uh and we should I should never be [45:33] invited to speak. They had a petition. [45:36] There were large numbers of people from [45:37] Jewish organizations uh signing it. And [45:41] a few years after that, when I asked [45:44] them privately to apologize after that [45:46] we they now everyone understood I think [45:48] what Black Lives Matter was a just a a [45:50] racist anti-Semitic anti-white [45:52] anti-American group. They simply started [45:55] screaming at me and told me to get away [45:56] from them. [45:59] So, in other words, here Jacobson and [46:01] Blumenthal and so many others uh [46:04] continued to be left-wing, left-wing [46:06] Democrats despite the fact that they saw [46:10] how awful Black Lives Matter really was [46:12] to us and to America. How do you explain [46:15] them going out of their minds in favor [46:16] of Black Lives Matter when the evidence [46:18] I laid out the evidence, others did as [46:20] well, and and they wouldn't even [46:23] apologize years later? I mean, what is [46:24] it in the Jewish mentality that they had [46:27] to maintain this type of nonsense? I [46:29] just don't understand it. [46:32] >> Um, so more you have the sort of [46:34] combined pleasure and, you know, [46:36] probably immense annoyance of being an [46:38] extremely vindicated man because you [46:42] were right about a lot of things when a [46:43] lot of us were not, including myself. [46:46] And I can look back and see that now. [46:48] And so you were forced to sort of take [46:50] these arrows for saying things that are [46:52] like obviously true now like five years [46:55] later, 10 years later. Um I'm sure [46:57] nobody apologizes. Allow me to apologize [46:59] if I ever said anything. Um but um I I I [47:02] don't know that it's the so so I think [47:04] that for for for reformed Jews, for [47:07] secular Jews, for Jews whose Jewish [47:10] identity is not actually rooted in the [47:12] kind of Judeo-Christian tradition of the [47:13] Torah. [47:14] >> These were rabbis. These were two [47:15] rabbis. [47:16] >> Yes. Um, I mean, okay, I don't have have [47:19] to go there, but um, the the the the to [47:22] me it's um they're they're woke. [47:26] They they they are their their their [47:29] morality is created by an education. I [47:32] don't even want to call it an education. [47:34] It's like an anti-education, [47:36] but from the liberal arts leftist [47:39] mentality that was imported over here [47:43] from France. And it divides the world [47:46] not by right versus wrong or fact versus [47:49] fiction, but powerful versus powerless. [47:52] And if you have more power, you are [47:54] evil. And if you have less power, you [47:56] are inherently virtuous. So a white [47:59] person or a Jew can only be virtuous. We [48:03] can't have virtue by just behaving [48:05] virtuously the way the Judeo-Christian [48:07] tradition suggests. Um the only way to [48:10] get virtue is to lend yourself to the [48:14] cause of the oppressed and to and and [48:17] and not to question them because their [48:19] oppression which means their skin color [48:22] gives them virtue. It gives them [48:24] inherent [48:26] um correctness. Whatever they think and [48:28] whatever they say is inherently correct [48:30] and cannot be challenged. and they have [48:32] no moral responsibilities not to loot, [48:35] not to steal, not to break things. Um [48:38] they don't owe it to you to be good [48:40] because they don't believe in good [48:41] versus bad or right versus wrong. That [48:44] that's you know that the reform movement [48:46] unfortunately has thrown its lot in [48:48] ideologically with the left. And so its [48:51] entire worldview is based on this and [48:54] and it's the longer you spend in [48:56] university the more exposed to this you [48:58] are because it's it's there in every the [49:00] entire humanities is sused with this um [49:03] the entire social sciences suffused with [49:06] this and unfortunately it's coming for [49:07] medicine it's coming for psychiatry it's [49:09] coming for every discipline. [49:10] >> Yes it is. [49:11] >> Um and and it's it's terrible because it [49:14] it suggests that you know Jews are [49:16] inherently evil. Um the the the [49:18] comforting thing, I don't know if this [49:20] is comforting, but in in my view, you [49:22] know, they don't hate us more than they [49:24] hate white Christians. They just don't [49:27] they don't hate Israel more than they [49:28] hate America. Uh we have it bad right [49:31] now. We don't have it as bad as Charlie [49:33] Kirk has it. Um we're getting the white [49:37] Christian treatment. And the reason Jews [49:39] are upset is because they think that [49:41] they are entitled to the black trans [49:43] treatment. Okay? And this is like the [49:46] the problem with the ADL, the problem [49:48] with the reform movement, even their [49:50] objection to the explosion in [49:52] anti-semitism from October 7th is how [49:56] dare you treat us like white Christians. [49:59] How dare you not realize we are [50:00] oppressed? And to me, this is [50:03] disgusting. I mean, it it is disgusting [50:06] because it is white Christians who have [50:08] our backs. like it is white Christians [50:10] who are still out there defending us and [50:11] we're saying how dare you throw me in [50:14] with those disgusting Trump voters. Um [50:17] and and that I think is is pro part of [50:19] the problem with the Jewish community is [50:21] even those who realize that there's like [50:23] this deep anti-semitism that's coming [50:25] out now on the left. Um they just want [50:29] the recognition of the anti-semites, [50:31] they don't actually want to understand [50:33] what has led to it and how to fight back [50:35] against it. Um, all of which is just to [50:37] say like the it's it's terrible that [50:40] they did that to you. It's it remains [50:42] terrible because you were obviously [50:44] right and they were obviously wrong and [50:46] they still can't admit it even though [50:48] most people today can. I think that [50:50] there's a a crisis in moral authority [50:54] plaguing white liberals and Jews are [50:57] just unbelievably likely to be white [50:59] liberals. And to the extent that you are [51:01] a white liberal in America, there is [51:03] this crisis in moral authority to where [51:07] people feel that the only way to be [51:08] virtuous is not to say um actually [51:12] Israel is in the right here and Kamas is [51:14] in the wrong, but is to to lend your [51:17] voice and yourself to the oppressed no [51:20] matter what they're doing. And that that [51:22] is the fundamental problem here. And [51:24] unfortunately, millions of American Jews [51:27] are are infected with this virus. [51:30] Um uh let me ask you uh another question [51:34] um slightly different tac um I was [51:37] wondering and I know I know you didn't [51:39] actually cover this in the book but um [51:41] there are certain democratic democratic [51:44] figures who I consider to be very heroic [51:46] you know and did very positive things u [51:49] for for the for Jews and I was wondering [51:52] if this is a one of the reasons why do [51:55] you know if they had if this had any [51:56] impact on Jews um supporting the [51:59] democrat ratic party. You know, one [52:00] would be Lyndon Johnson who's oper had [52:02] an, you know, during World War II, he [52:04] had Operation Texas to rescue Jewish [52:06] Holocaust refugees through, you know, [52:08] various clandestine routes into Texas. [52:11] Um, he made sure that the UN resolution [52:13] after 1967 did not require Israel to [52:16] give up land, the lands it liberated. [52:18] Um, it spoke about he spoke about how [52:20] the return to the 1967 lines would lead [52:22] to more war. um Daniel Patrick Moahan um [52:26] his famous UN speech opposing the [52:28] Zionism is racism resolution. Henry [52:31] Scoop Jackson um and who was involved in [52:34] the Jackson Avanic uh amendment to force [52:36] a Soviet Union to uh lift restrictions [52:39] on Soviet Jews who wanted to immigrate. [52:42] Um you know the handful of Democrats [52:44] especially uh Robert Menendez who really [52:47] suffered because of it um who stood up [52:49] to Obama on the Iran deal. you know, [52:51] these are real Democratic uh heroes. And [52:53] did th did this have any did these sorts [52:56] of people have any impact on Jews [52:58] becoming Democrats and also sort of [53:01] conversely I'll add in a Republican hero [53:04] whether that had any impact on you know [53:06] on Jews which was a Republican senator [53:08] Rudy Boswitz who played a key role in um [53:11] rescuing Ethiopian jewelry. [53:14] Um, honestly, I think it's there's [53:16] probably a lot of confirmation bias. [53:17] When you see someone on your side doing [53:19] something you like, then you're like, [53:21] "Oh, yeah, my side is great." And vice [53:23] versa. I think today though, you know, [53:26] people like us, for example, you take [53:27] somebody like Richie Torres, right? A [53:29] Democrat from the Bronx who's just [53:31] extremely pro-Israel. [53:33] >> I don't think he's getting any props [53:35] with left-wing Jews for that. I I really [53:37] don't. And it's just very sad because I [53:40] think a lot of them buy into a lot of [53:41] the propaganda, the anti-ionist [53:44] propaganda. Um, so again, it's like [53:46] whatever side you're on, you say, you [53:48] know, ALS, you know, so we're probably a [53:50] lot of people here are Republicans. And [53:51] so it's nice for us that there's a lot [53:53] of Republicans right now who are really [53:55] standing by Israel and and and standing [53:57] by the Jews. You know, still 80% of the [53:59] Republican voters are very pro-Israel. I [54:03] I personally think that a lot of the [54:04] sort of groper, you know, I think a lot [54:06] of it is a moral panic, but you know, [54:09] you have to admit that there is somebody [54:11] pretty high up who's refusing to cut [54:13] ties with America's most prominent [54:15] anti-semite, and that's very bad. And we [54:17] have to be able to see that. We have to [54:18] fight our confirmation bias and the [54:20] desire to always say like, well, my side [54:22] is good. I'm only going to call it out [54:24] on the other side. Let me, if I may, [54:26] interject, uh, Richie Torres put out a [54:30] tweet a year or so ago saying, "If the [54:32] Palestinian Arabs don't get a state, [54:34] then the Jews don't deserve a state." He [54:36] wrote that. He told me personally that [54:39] Mort, you are making too big an issue [54:41] out of black anti-semitism, and I don't [54:43] like it. Cut it out. I just want you to [54:46] know that there's it's a complicated [54:48] issue about Richie Torres, that's all. [54:51] >> Okay. Um I do we have time for a few [54:53] questions from from uh the audience or [54:56] >> Yeah, I've got five minutes. [54:57] >> Okay. Um so why don't we have we have [54:59] three people with their hands up and why [55:00] don't we have them answer quickly as ask [55:03] their questions. Yan, you go first. [55:04] You're unmuted. [55:05] >> Cross the billboard. [55:07] >> Sorry. Um yeah, so you know you you kind [55:10] of almost said it. Growing up in the [55:12] 70s, Israel was very popular on both [55:15] sides. My mother did campaign work for [55:18] Daniel Moahan because of his pro-Israel [55:21] uh stance as well as uh Jackson as you [55:24] mentioned. Um even on television they [55:27] celebrated Israel's 30th anniversary. Um [55:31] Israel was very very popular in the 70s [55:33] really on on at least what I saw. The [55:36] big change, the question that I have is [55:38] the big change started in the 80s where [55:41] Israel invaded um Lebanon, but also CNN [55:45] came around and that seems to be the [55:48] first time where I saw negative coverage [55:50] on Israel. And one of the rumors that I [55:54] hear is that for CNN to go into other [55:56] countries, particularly Arab countries, [56:00] the only way they could do it is to [56:01] start disparaging Israel. And I'm [56:04] wondering, one, is that true? And then [56:07] two, you could see, at least what I saw [56:09] is that it wasn't a [56:11] >> We only do one question. I'm sorry. I'm [56:13] sorry. I wanted to give everybody a [56:14] chance. I'm sorry, Ian. [56:15] >> Oh, okay. I'm sorry. So, yeah, CNN and [56:17] and is it true that you know the Arabs [56:20] require uh CNN to disparage Israel in [56:24] order to open up uh sites, which is a [56:28] major cause of anti-semitism. [56:30] >> Okay. Adrien Bacha, um, years ago when [56:33] you were at the forward, you contacted [56:35] me to write an article, uh, as a [56:38] followup to an article, American [56:40] Thinker, about Republicans, [56:42] uh, being uncomfortable in woke [56:44] synagogues and leaving. This was 2021, [56:48] >> and it's only gotten worse. [56:51] I am the only Jew at the Republican [56:55] executive committee meetings here. [56:58] Uh I'm in Ocala, Florida, and they're [57:01] wonderful. My Christian friends are the [57:02] base of my friends here. Uh at the [57:06] synagogues or the temples, they're true [57:08] rabbis. [57:10] My question is, [57:13] there were 30 Jews that I had looked up [57:17] and documented that sided with the Nazis [57:22] who killed who because of their [57:25] positions, 250,000 [57:28] Jews were killed because of them in the [57:30] concentration camps. They ultimately [57:34] were killed or committed suicide. [57:37] What? And I ask um Mort and you what is [57:42] it with the Jewish mentality [57:44] that the record of history, the same [57:48] pattern of history does not connect with [57:52] the reform um the progressive Jew that [57:56] puts all our lives in danger because we [58:00] see what's happening already uh with the [58:03] escalation of anti-semitism. [58:06] There is a problem with the Jewish [58:08] mentality. If we would stick together, I [58:11] honestly believe we would not be seeing [58:14] what we're we're suffering from right [58:17] now. [58:18] >> Good point, Justin. very quickly. [58:20] >> Yeah, it's almost more of a comment, but [58:23] um I think there's so much of a [58:26] connection really like um as Batia Anger [58:30] was saying earlier, [58:33] the evangelicals. [58:35] I mean, you go you went if you went down [58:38] south whenever there was a Hamas tent, [58:42] the students would not let those things [58:46] exist. There's a lot more, I think, of a [58:49] military culture, say in some of your [58:53] southern states, maybe more of an [58:55] American pride issue, verse, say up here [58:59] in New York where I am. A lot of it too [59:03] is within um say reform or I think [59:07] concern. Well, [59:08] >> I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I have to [59:11] go. But thank you so much for having me. [59:12] It was such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank [59:14] you. Thank you. [59:15] >> Thank you, Bacha. Thank you so much. We [59:17] really appreciate your time. We look [59:18] forward to seeing you and look forward [59:20] to seeing everybody again. Thank you so [59:22] much everyone. Thank you and thank you [59:23] for your great questions.
